Would the BIG-3 pull out of NA

[geoffrey]

Why is that? Why would you not support your own U.S auto industry in fairly hard and competitive economic times?

Mmm... economic nationalism. Tasty stuff. Do you only buy produce from your local farmer's market? Only fly on Air Canada and West Jet?

Buy whatever car best suits your needs. Apparently the NA automakers aren't providing that anymore like they once did. I owned American cars, they were ok, nothing bad or good. But I love my Euro import right now. Not changing that in the near future.

[Leafless]

I have a Toyota Camry and love it; can't imagine going back to anything else. I've bought American all my life, but I need reliable transportation, so I'll buy what gives me what I need from now on. I can't believe the U.S. doesn't have the means/ability to come up with the same kind of quality in American cars at the same price.

That could be a load of baloney.

I know many people that are unhappy with their imports for many reasons.

The main one being, seriously injured or worse, in a not to serious auto mishap and having emergency crews prying you or whatever is left of you, out of your lightweight import.

So, in your opinion, now that you have raised the 'reliable transportation issue', in what area are American cars so troublesome, that according to you make the imports so superior and reliable, in relatively the same price range?

[Leafless]

Mmm... economic nationalism. Tasty stuff. Do you only buy produce from your local farmer's market?

No I don't, since most of the time they are selling U.S. produce anyways and many are selling imported and mainly U.S. produce, under the guise of being Canadian produce.

But I do enjoy certain Canadian produce items during our peak very short produce growing season.

Only fly on Air Canada and West Jet?

I don't support Air Canada since I don't support discriminatory language policies, especially with Air Canada's head office being in Montreal. As a matter of fact I try to avoid any type of air travel due primarily to questionable aircraft maintenance and the terrorist threat.

Buy whatever car best suits your needs. Apparently the NA automakers aren't providing that anymore like they once did. I owned American cars, they were ok, nothing bad or good. But I love my Euro import right now. Not changing that in the near future.

I think NA built vehicles were a lot less reliable in years gone by then they are now.

In fact they have super improved reliability.

So I will ask you the same question as I did the previous poster.

What in your opinion makes NA built vehicles less reliable than imports.

And why are you not supportive of NA auto industry where hundreds of thousands of Canadian jobs rely on this industry or associated sub-manufacturing industries?

[bush_cheney2004]

I have a Toyota Camry and love it; can't imagine going back to anything else. I've bought American all my life, but I need reliable transportation, so I'll buy what gives me what I need from now on. I can't believe the U.S. doesn't have the means/ability to come up with the same kind of quality in American cars at the same price.

Where was your Camry built? Toyota has 13 manufacturing plants in North America, and is building more in right-to-work (non union) states.

[Guest American Woman]

I have a Toyota Camry and love it; can't imagine going back to anything else. I've bought American all my life, but I need reliable transportation, so I'll buy what gives me what I need from now on. I can't believe the U.S. doesn't have the means/ability to come up with the same kind of quality in American cars at the same price.

That could be a load of baloney.

I know many people that are unhappy with their imports for many reasons.

The main one being, seriously injured or worse, in a not to serious auto mishap and having emergency crews prying you or whatever is left of you, out of your lightweight import.

So, in your opinion, now that you have raised the 'reliable transportation issue', in what area are American cars so troublesome, that according to you make the imports so superior and reliable, in relatively the same price range?

I didn't say no one was unhappy with an import. I wasn't speaking for all imports by any means. I wouldn't buy a Yugo, for instance. I was speaking from personal experience strictly about the Toyota Camry, which, btw, does very well in safety tests. There are plenty of small, light American cars, too, so I'm not sure what your point is there. To my experience, American cars are just more cheaply made; they don't ride as nice, they rust out, they require more maintenance. They also depreciate in value more.

[marcinmoka]

The main one being, seriously injured or worse, in a not to serious auto mishap and having emergency crews prying you or whatever is left of you, out of your lightweight import.

Nonsense. You are safer in a Honda Civic than you are a Chevy Cobalt. Weight is one thing. Intelligent engineering is another.

I was also amazed last week when I saw a Toyota Yaris right next to me puncture its tire on the 401, and smash into the median with minimal crumple.

Anyhow, here are the Saftey Picks. A few American Cars, but primarily imports.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/

Toyota has 13 manufacturing plants in North America, and is building more in right-to-work (non union) states.

A few years ago, I worked for Toyota Customer Service, taking complaints and such.

Granted, it was a call center, but what a relaxing job. And oddly enough, the few complaints we did have were limited quality/fit/finish issues to the southern U.S. built pickups. Good tax incentives but a slight dip in quality. Eventually, they brought in Japanese workers and administered much more Kaizen training. Not to mention the absence of a Union definitely goes far in establishing consistency on assembly line.

P.S. For the record, never buy 1st model year vehicles. Only in the 2nd year do they work all the kinks out.

Edited July 16, 2007 by marcinmoka

[Leafless]

I have a Toyota Camry and love it; can't imagine going back to anything else. I've bought American all my life, but I need reliable transportation, so I'll buy what gives me what I need from now on. I can't believe the U.S. doesn't have the means/ability to come up with the same kind of quality in American cars at the same price.

That could be a load of baloney.

I know many people that are unhappy with their imports for many reasons.

The main one being, seriously injured or worse, in a not to serious auto mishap and having emergency crews prying you or whatever is left of you, out of your lightweight import.

So, in your opinion, now that you have raised the 'reliable transportation issue', in what area are American cars so troublesome, that according to you make the imports so superior and reliable, in relatively the same price range?

I didn't say no one was unhappy with an import. I wasn't speaking for all imports by any means. I wouldn't buy a Yugo, for instance. I was speaking from personal experience strictly about the Toyota Camry, which, btw, does very well in safety tests. There are plenty of small, light American cars, too, so I'm not sure what your point is there. To my experience, American cars are just more cheaply made; they don't ride as nice, they rust out, they require more maintenance. They also depreciate in value more.

The Camry is an Americanized automobile, with gas mileage just about in the same ball park as a NA built 3-l engine because of its heavier weight and the Camry offers better crash protection because of this. It has a better resale value because you initially paid significantly more for that vehicle.

There are many light American built vehicles but more importantly you have a choice to buy a heavier built NA vehicle with a 5 star safety rating. That is my point.

You still have not described the type of parts or component failures that you say makes NA built vehicles require more maintenance.

There is a certain younger university or college crowd that imports appeal to, simply due to the better gas mileage and I personally think this is the reason imports appeal more to certain people, since a precedent has been set by supposedly informed and educated people.

This can be compared to in the 60's college students set a precedent with component stereos as they were so much cheaper than the coffin type living room wooden cabinet stereos costing much more and more affordable to the younger crowd.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Camry is an Americanized automobile, with gas mileage just about in the same ball park as a NA built 3-l engine because of its heavier weight and the Camry offers better crash protection because of this. It has a better resale value because you initially paid significantly more for that vehicle.

The Camry is unremarkable for reliability and NHTSA recalls, having its share of issues. I've had to replace head gaskets and cracked exhaust manifolds on Honda's. Mazda is minority owned by Ford, and many of the drivetrain parts are the same on some vehicles. My '71 Datsun (Nissan) 240Z rusted out in eight years. Many of the Japanese makes still only offer 36,000mile/3 year warranties.

[jbg]

But as a 16 yr. old, did you or did you not rod that mustang?

Quite definitely not. My personality hasn't changed that much over the years. Do I come across in print as someone that would have been delinquent in any manner?

Quite seriously, I had just lost my father, my soon-to-be stepfather did not show any particular signs of being wealthy, and I knew the value of a dollar and of hard work, even though I was and remain an ardent left-winger. When my father was alive and he had to, on occasion, go to his interior design business on a weekend, often as not I'd go with him. I am not one to take a valuable piece of property, wantonly wreck it, and in the process put others in danger.

If you did buy cars under your own type similar conditions, then you simply got lucky with your two Japanese vehicles without having any major problems.

I had mechanics check them out and later, when I had more money, bought them from dealers under "Certified Used Cars" programs.

Relating to Mustangs, I owned a used 1969 Mustang 428c.i. cobra jet, Mach 1, with no front end problems at all. The only problem I had with that vehicle out of the norm, was an over temperamental 4-barrel Holley carburetor which I eventually replaced after many attempts to get things right, at a significant replacement cost, but then again this was a special high performance carburetor.

My mechanic told me that starting with the 1970 model year there was a serious and deliberate reduction in quality. In retrospect, this was due to the Great Inflation in its nascent stages. Manufacturers were wary of raising prices outright (or were restrained by Tricky Dick's wage and price controls from August 1971 to January 1973), so quality reduction was the cost-cutting order of the day.

The thing I don't understand with your choice of Jap imports is that you seem to be loyal and respectful and supportive of the U.S. culture and traditions and turn around and not support its home grown auto industry. Why is that? Why would you not support your own U.S auto industry in fairly hard and competitive economic times? Are U.S. built vehicles really that inferior in you mind?

As a result of the aforementioned quality reductions, American car quality went into the sewer. Based on my experience with my wife's Mercury station wagon, it's a bit better, though not enough. See "American Woman's" post above ("I've bought American all my life, but I need reliable transportation, so I'll buy what gives me what I need from now on."). For a car I need something that works.

[Leafless]

Nonsense. You are safer in a Honda Civic than you are a Chevy Cobalt. Weight is one thing. Intelligent engineering is another.

Nonsense???

How about re-reading your own link:

"The Institute rates passenger vehicle crashworthiness good, acceptable, marginal, or poor based on performance in front, side, and rear tests. In 2006 the cars in each size group that earned good front, side, and rear ratings qualified as Top Safety Picks 2006 (gold). Cars that earned good front and side ratings plus an acceptable rating for rear crash protection qualified as Top Safety Picks 2006 (silver). * However, don't compare ratings across vehicle size groups because size and weight influence occupant protection in serious crashes. Larger, heavier vehicles generally afford more protection than smaller, lighter ones. Top Safety Picks are the best vehicle choices for safety within size categories, but this doesn't mean a small car that's a Top Safety Pick affords more protection than a bigger car that doesn't earn the award.*"

[Leafless]

As a result of the aforementioned quality reductions, American car quality went into the sewer. Based on my experience with my wife's Mercury station wagon, it's a bit better, though not enough. See "American Woman's" post above ("I've bought American all my life, but I need reliable transportation, so I'll buy what gives me what I need from now on."). For a car I need something that works.

I see 10's of thousand NA built vehicles on the road running fine.

It seems you are having problems with used cars.

When I am driving the 401, I see people flying by me like I am almost standing still and I am driving between 100-120 km per hr. Hopefully you are not one of these people and hopefully you don't end up buying one these more than likely abused vehicles and not necessarily at the time of sale as being defective or failing to pass a safety check.

That is another area of concern, certifying automobiles that are borderline.

In 2005 17million cars were sold in the U.S. with the U.S holding a 56.9% share. That's a lot of NA built vehicles, so they can't be as bad as you claim.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=9859

I bet most of those imports even if some people don't admit it is simply for the better mileage per litre or per gallon of gasoline, relating to the small imports, ignoring all the features of NA built vehicles and the other reason buy imports is because Toyota and Honda are made in America and not considered an import.

See BC's post on Camry's and 3-yr. warranties.

Most of this NA unreliability BS is untrue and basically owed to driver abuse and not looking after their vehicles. Just watch the way many people drive to-day.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Leafless

[marcinmoka]

How about re-reading your own link:

However, don't compare ratings across vehicle size groups because size and weight influence occupant protection in serious crashes

So a GMC Suburban has better crash results than a Toyota Yaris. Good observation. I was kinda hoping you would pick up on the relative size comparisons. Pound for pound, imports are more carefully designed. More than often, imports must meet multiple crash regulations, in Europe, Japan as well as America. Making a car capable of passing all three makes for quite a safe vehicle.

Note. The base Cobalt coupe is 100lbs heavier than the base Civic coupe. Both are front wheel drive, 4 cylinders and thus in the same class. Perhaps the weight is negligable in this case, but still, 100lbs could (and should) translate into better side impact protection.

[Leafless]

How about re-reading your own link:

However, don't compare ratings across vehicle size groups because size and weight influence occupant protection in serious crashes

So a GMC Suburban has better crash results than a Toyota Yaris. Good observation. I was kinda hoping you would pick up on the relative size comparisons. Pound for pound, imports are more carefully designed. More than often, imports must meet multiple crash regulations, in Europe, Japan as well as America. Making a car capable of passing all three makes for quite a safe vehicle.

Note. The base Cobalt coupe is 100lbs heavier than the base Civic coupe. Both are front wheel drive, 4 cylinders and thus in the same class. Perhaps the weight is negligable in this case, but still, 100lbs could (and should) translate into better side impact protection.

One hundred lbs. spanned over the sq. ft. both sides of the vehicle, say 20 square ft. (passenger compartment only) per side means 2.5-lbs. more protection per sq. ft. Your head offers more crash protection. Obviously you have never seen emergency crews prying people out of small imported wrecks or picking up the pieces here and there, of whatever is left of them.

You make it sound like Europeans and Japanese are leaders or set the standard in crash worthiness and safety related standards.

Imports must meet U.S and Canadian standards before being allowed to sell their vehicles here.

Government and NA automobile manufacturers are not a bunch of uninformed farmers and have had high quality standards for many years.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/index.html

[bush_cheney2004]

Most of this NA unreliability BS is untrue and basically owed to driver abuse and not looking after their vehicles. Just watch the way many people drive to-day.

This is very true...I have owned many different makes from Europe, America, and Japan. The most reliable vehicle by far has been a modest Ford Focus wagon that I puchased new and maintain myself. Many people have forgotten how to maintain cars or are no longer qualified to do so. Spooked by expensive dealer scheduled maintenance fees, it doesn't get done, leading to a used car nightmare for somebody else.

[marcinmoka]

One hundred lbs. spanned over the sq. ft. both sides of the vehicle, say 20 square ft. (passenger compartment only) per side means 2.5-lbs. more protection per sq. ft.

Are you referring to the diagonally placed dense aluminum tubes which on the inside of a door? We are talking about crash protection, not building an armor plated vehicle.

Your head offers more crash protection

If I had to compare an aluminum baseball bat and my skull, I would choose the Louisville vis a vis direct impact.

But in terms of the 2005 Consumer Reports Saftey Rankings (Active and Passive measures combined)........drum roll please.

Upscale and large sedans.

The best

The Lexus ES300

Audi A4

BMW 330i

The worst

Buick LeSabre Limited (Much heavier)

Chrysler 300M (Much heavier)

Family sedans.

The best

The Volkswagen Passat GLX (V6)

Toyota Camry XLE (V6)

The worst

Pontiac Grand Prix GT

Oldsmobile Alero

Pontiac Grand Am.

Small cars.

The best

VW Golf TDI

Honda Civic EX

Volkswagen Jetta GLS TDI.

The worst

Hyundai Elantra GLS

Chevrolet Cavalier LS.

Compact crew-cab pickups

The best

Toyota Tacoma TRD (V6)

Nissan Frontier (V6).

The worst

Dodge Dakota SLT,

Chevrolet S-10 L5 (V6)

GMC Sonoma 5LS (V6)

small-sized SUV category,

the top vehicles for safety were the

Saturn VUE (V6),

Honda CR-V EX

Hyundai Santa Fe GLS (V6).

In the midsized category, t

The best

Lexus RX300,

Acura MDX

Toyota Highlander

The worst

Chevrolet Trail Blazer,

GMC Envoy a

Jeep Grand Cherokee.

As for minivans,

The best

Honda Odyssey EX,

Toyota Sienna LE

Mazda MPV LX

The worst

Chevrolet Venture LS,

Oldsmobile Silhouette GLS

Pontiac Montana

* Has anyone ever seen a Pontiac Montana post accident? I was traumatized. The thing behaved like a pop can and looked like an accordian.

Obviously you have never seen emergency crews prying people out of small imported wrecks or picking up the pieces here and there, of whatever is left of them.

Pre-1990, I would agree. AN 88' Pontiac Parisienne clashing with an 88' Prelude would spell disaster. But now that the domestic firms are trying to produce small cars, and the Japanese have successfully produced full size cars and even brilliant full size pickups, we can confidently compare apples to apples.

Since the introduction of the Camry and the Accord, the rules have been re-written and consumers were finally given some genuine choice, and we realized a different world exists. For the sake of our own industry, let us hope the "medium" three now catch up. Unfortunately they have a reputation for shunning innovation with a Stalinist Iron Fist.

Power corrupts when one is not forced to be nimble and adaptive on his toes. I doubt you would disagree.

Edited July 17, 2007 by marcinmoka

[Leafless]

Are you referring to the diagonally placed dense aluminum tubes which on the inside of a door? We are talking about crash protection, not building an armor plated vehicle.

No I was was referring to the hundred pounds difference in two vehicles with you saying: "but still, 100lbs could (and should) translate into better side impact protection." Most cars already have side impact bars, which really are not that effective because the end attachment points give away and also bend.

I just added the total hundred pounds ONLY to the passenger compartment, over an average sq, ft, area, in sheet metal weight, to indicate how little difference a hundred pounds would make.

But in terms of the 2005 Consumer Reports Saftey Rankings (Active and Passive measures combined)........drum roll please.

Upscale and large sedans.

The best

The Lexus ES300

Audi A4

BMW 330i

The worst

Buick LeSabre Limited (Much heavier)

Chrysler 300M (Much heavier)

Family sedans.

The best

The Volkswagen Passat GLX (V6)

Toyota Camry XLE (V6)

The worst

Pontiac Grand Prix GT

Oldsmobile Alero

Pontiac Grand Am.

Small cars.

The best

VW Golf TDI

Honda Civic EX

Volkswagen Jetta GLS TDI.

The worst

Hyundai Elantra GLS

Chevrolet Cavalier LS.

Compact crew-cab pickups

The best

Toyota Tacoma TRD (V6)

Nissan Frontier (V6).

The worst

Dodge Dakota SLT,

Chevrolet S-10 L5 (V6)

GMC Sonoma 5LS (V6)

small-sized SUV category,

the top vehicles for safety were the

Saturn VUE (V6),

Honda CR-V EX

Hyundai Santa Fe GLS (V6).

In the midsized category, t

The best

Lexus RX300,

Acura MDX

Toyota Highlander

The worst

Chevrolet Trail Blazer,

GMC Envoy a

Jeep Grand Cherokee.

As for minivans,

The best

Honda Odyssey EX,

Toyota Sienna LE

Mazda MPV LX

The worst

Chevrolet Venture LS,

Oldsmobile Silhouette GLS

Pontiac Montana

You must be mesmerized by Consumer Reports.

Like I posted previously the U.S. already has safety standards that apply to all vehicles relating to in this discussion crash protection, in which all NA vehicles passed are certified safe vehicles.

You are comparing controlled crashes, all being identical. In real life this never happens. There are a multitude of factors that would distort Consumer Reports results with real life crashes.

Bottom line is the heavier the vehicle generally speaking the safer you are which I will re-post from Consumer Reports: "* However, don't compare ratings across vehicle size groups because size and weight influence occupant protection in serious crashes. Larger, heavier vehicles generally afford more protection than smaller, lighter ones. Top Safety Picks are the best vehicle choices for safety within size categories, but this doesn't mean a small car that's a Top Safety Pick affords more protection than a bigger car that doesn't earn the award.*"

Has anyone ever seen a Pontiac Montana post accident? I was traumatized. The thing behaved like a pop can and looked like an accordian.

Mini vans are empty tin cans, like Jap hatchbacks and neatly fold up when rear ended hard.

But I still would sooner be driving a Montana over a Jap hatchback anyday.

Since the introduction of the Camry and the Accord, the rules have been re-written and consumers were finally given some genuine choice, and we realized a different world exists. For the sake of our own industry, let us hope the "medium" three now catch up. Unfortunately they have a reputation for shunning innovation with a Stalinist Iron Fist.

Power corrupts when one is not forced to be nimble and adaptive on his toes. I doubt you would disagree.

I think you are being unreasonable with your assessment.

You cannot beat out the forces of gravity and I fully agree that in certain areas, there is no need to go to costly extreme lengths to produce negligible and questionable results.

If you think these extra safety innovations COULD or POSSIBLY leave you a complete paraplegic rather than being killed instantly, I would choose the latter.

[fellowtraveller]

Many of the Japanese makes still only offer 36,000mile/3 year warranties.

You state is if the length of the warranites was some measureor indication of quality of the vehicle.

It isn't.

Long warranties are a marketing tool, nothing more.

Companies like Hyundai or Chrysler offer 5 year/100000 warranties to gain market share. If they have to do a few more repairs in that period, they expect to recoup it in the increased sales resulting from the longer warranty.

[Canuck E Stan]

Buick, Lexus brands rank highest in vehicle dependability

Buick ties with Lexus to rank highest among nameplates in vehicle dependability — marking the first time in 12 years that another brand ties with Lexus for the highest-rank position, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) released August 9.

The study, which measures problems experienced by original owners of three-year-old (2004 model year) vehicles, finds that Buick and Lexus tie for the top rank position with a score of 145 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100). Following in the top five rankings are Cadillac, Mercury and Honda, respectively.

“With three non-premium nameplates — Buick, Honda and Mercury — ranking within the top five, and particularly with Buick tying with Lexus for the top rank, consumers seeking a vehicle with strong dependability have good choices at various price levels,” said Neal Oddes, director of product research and analysis for J.D. Power and Associates. “Consumers don’t necessarily need to pay premium prices to obtain high quality and dependability.”

Lexus garners five segment awards — the most of any nameplate in 2007 — for the GS 300/GS430, GX 470, LS 430, LX 470 and SC 430. Toyota follows with four segment awards for the RAV 4, Sequoia, Tacoma and Tundra. Ford, Honda and Oldsmobile each capture two awards. Ford models receiving awards are the Crown Victoria and Mustang (in a tie), while Honda earns awards for the Civic and S2000. Oldsmobile models receiving awards are the Bravada and Silhouette. Models by Buick, Chevrolet, Infiniti, Mazda and Scion each rank highest in one segment

It's all about dependability for your $$.Buick,Cadillac,Mercury,Oldsmobile,Ford,Chevrolet, are right up there with the Japanese imports(Cambridge, Ontario, is home to the first Lexus manufacturing plant in North America. It produces the RX luxury sport utility vehicle, the best selling SUV Lexus ever built.)

This fallacy of North American built cars being unreliable is just that,a fallacy.