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[Guest chilipeppers]

If you don't like it, speak out against it. Harper is making that effort and I commend him for it. His supporters would benefit by breaking that stereotype as well and speaking out against their fellow conservatives when they say racist (pardon me, xenophobic and/or white supremacist) things.

Speak out against what exactly, I have never heard anything of which you speak. I'm on a board for CPC and have been in more than one riding, I have heard nothing that resembles anything you say. I suppose there are isolated incidents and if so it does not prove that ALL tories are xenophobic etc. Please provide proof.

The (then) newly formed Conservative party’s candidate team had the largest % of visible minority individuals. Of their 308 candidates, 33 or 10.7% were visible minorities, just ahead of the NDP with 29 visible minorities (9.4%) and the Liberals with 26 (8.4%) I don't have the stats for the last election.

[BC_chick]

Speak out against what exactly, I have never heard anything of which you speak. I'm on a board for CPC and have been in more than one riding, I have heard nothing that resembles anything you say. I suppose there are isolated incidents and if so it does not prove that ALL tories are xenophobic etc. Please provide proof.

The (then) newly formed Conservative party’s candidate team had the largest % of visible minority individuals. Of their 308 candidates, 33 or 10.7% were visible minorities, just ahead of the NDP with 29 visible minorities (9.4%) and the Liberals with 26 (8.4%) I don't have the stats for the last election.

Throughout the thread I have, on a number of occasions, stated that I am not speaking about the CPC itself, but rather, its supporters. In order to attract more minorities, you need to speak out against the xenophobes and/or white supremacists who are by and large attracted to your political party. As I said, Harper is making that effort and I applaud him for it. But in a forum such as this, I see nothing but apologists for such behaviour.

[kimmy]

As far as Dion goes with the Jewish community, he has been well out in front in support.

Do tell. Link?

I'm glad you asked.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRafIJExOQE

Scott asked you to support the claim that Dion is "well out front in support" among the Jewish community ... and you provide a video of Dion hugging rabbis and doing a jig to klezmer music.

That's feedle-eedle-idle-hidle-hilarious, Dobbins!

By that logic, I guess those news-clips of Paul Martin dressed up in denim and cowboy boots and kissing cows near Red Deer proved that Paul Martin was "well out in front in support" in Alberta.

I will grant you this much, Dobbins: your video does prove that Dion was well out in front among Jews, in the sense that he was physically "well out front" when he was speaking at the podium. But beyond that, I don't think it answers Scott's challenge.

While the thread has drifted from its original topic, what we've been discussing for the past 100 posts or so has been the issue of bigots within parties, and BC Chick's claim that the CPC has the support of all (or almost all) bigots in Canada.

While BC Chick's notion of bigotry is more exclusive than others, many or most people would consider antisemitism an example of bigotry.

Why are we discussing whether there is antisemitism within the Liberal Party? Because a number of high-profile incidents make it a reasonable topic for discussion. These include:

-Young Liberals of BC vice-president Thomas Hubert resigns after claiming that Israel is the "most vile nation in human history" and that Hezbollah would be remembered as heroes for fighting Israel.

-Liberal MP Borys Wrzesnewskyj calls for Hezbollah to be removed from the list of terrorist organizations

-Liberal MP Denis Coderre marches in a pro-Hezbollah rally

-prominent Liberals like Heather Reissman, Gary Schwartz, and Ariela Cotler, have quit the party over the issue.

-at the Liberal leadership convention, flyers were circulated urging delegates not to vote for Bob Rae because his wife is a Jew.

If it is fair to speculate that there are racists within the CPC because of a handful of utterances over the past decade, isn't it equally fair to question whether there are antisemites within the LPC because of these incidents that all happened within the past year or so?

-k

[jdobbin]

Scott asked you to support the claim that Dion is "well out front in support" among the Jewish community ... and you provide a video of Dion hugging rabbis and doing a jig to klezmer music.

That's feedle-eedle-idle-hidle-hilarious, Dobbins!

By that logic, I guess those news-clips of Paul Martin dressed up in denim and cowboy boots and kissing cows near Red Deer proved that Paul Martin was "well out in front in support" in Alberta.

I will grant you this much, Dobbins: your video does prove that Dion was well out in front among Jews, in the sense that he was physically "well out front" when he was speaking at the podium. But beyond that, I don't think it answers Scott's challenge.

Just in the last month, Dion spoke against antisemitism, in support of Israel.

The Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee sent a letter to all its members thanking Dion for his support.

http://jasoncherniak.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default

The rally in Montreal that you deride warmly welcomed Dion's support.

http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=11686

Liberal leader Stéphane Dion said Ahmadinejad is “inciting another Holocaust and the international community must hold him to account.’

The defence of Israel should be the concern of all democracies, Dion said. “Any threat to Israel’s right to exist is an attack on the values of every democracy. Israel’s struggle for peace and security is our struggle.”

He said the Liberals support “the right of Israel, like any other state, to be free of threats or acts of force,” and the party backs a two-state solution.

He also denounced anti-Semitism.“The struggle of the Jewish people against anti-Semitism concerns all people.”

Recalling the 2004 firebombing of the United Talmud Torahs school, which is in Dion’s riding, and the attempted firebombing of the YM-YWHA this Passover, he called the incidents “an attack on the values of every Canadian. These children are my children.”

I think if you want to say Stephane Dion is antisemitic or anti-Israel, you are barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not sure if it is your contention to say that Dion is racist and anti-Israel or not. Is it?

[BC_chick]

The only example of anti-semitism in your post, kimmy, is the last one because it had to do with Mrs. Rae's religion and not Israel itself. It was a disgusting incident which was denounced by Liberal Party members.

Nonetheless, many Jewish Canadians left the party because of the actions of those few members. So if to you it's perfectly understandable why some Jews would leave a political party because of the actions of a few party members, then please grant me the same level of understanding when I say a few members of the CPC spoil it for the rest of you.

Fair?

[kimmy]

As for the labour union's stance on Chinese workers, you'll have a point when the labour movement belittles the Chinese for their culture and their appearance.

Racism is based on supremacy, bitching about immigrant workers does not begin with the premise of white supremacy.

Before you wanted to look at this in terms of whether a group with power was causing disadvantage to a group without power. Now you want to attach notions of racial supremacy to the definition. You are just freakin' slippery.

"They is stealin' jobs from white folks!" has long been one of the most common complaints that bigots make about immigrants. Why is it racist when it comes from the mouth of an unemployed labourer, but "ok" when it comes from labour unions?

What about "They should go back where they came from. This is country with Northern European traditions and roots, and these people from other places just don't belong. I am not saying they are inferior. They are equal. They should just go be equal back in their own country." Hey, it specifically disavows white supremacy, right? So it's ok? Not racist? One can find arguments in that vein at anti-immigration and white-supremacist websites. Are they ok as long as they don't make claims of racial superiority?

Throughout the thread I have, on a number of occasions, stated that I am not speaking about the CPC itself, but rather, its supporters. In order to attract more minorities, you need to speak out against the xenophobes and/or white supremacists who are by and large attracted to your political party. As I said, Harper is making that effort and I applaud him for it. But in a forum such as this, I see nothing but apologists for such behaviour.

I have seen nothing of the sort. Please be specific, and cite messages which you think make apology for white supremacist ideas, and we can discuss it.

What is Stephen Harper supposed to speak out against? I'm not actually aware of any racist incidents that have occured during his leadership, which doesn't actually give him much to speak out against. He's been nothing but supportive of reaching out to ethnic and religious minorities.

Harper made full apology on behalf of Canada for the Chinese Head Tax, something the Liberals have steadfastly refused to do. Doesn't that speak for itself?

-k

[kimmy]

Scott asked you to support the claim that Dion is "well out front in support" among the Jewish community ... and you provide a video of Dion hugging rabbis and doing a jig to klezmer music.

That's feedle-eedle-idle-hidle-hilarious, Dobbins!

By that logic, I guess those news-clips of Paul Martin dressed up in denim and cowboy boots and kissing cows near Red Deer proved that Paul Martin was "well out in front in support" in Alberta.

I will grant you this much, Dobbins: your video does prove that Dion was well out in front among Jews, in the sense that he was physically "well out front" when he was speaking at the podium. But beyond that, I don't think it answers Scott's challenge.

Just in the last month, Dion spoke against antisemitism, in support of Israel.

The Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee sent a letter to all its members thanking Dion for his support.

http://jasoncherniak.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default

The rally in Montreal that you deride warmly welcomed Dion's support.

http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=11686

Liberal leader Stéphane Dion said Ahmadinejad is “inciting another Holocaust and the international community must hold him to account.’

The defence of Israel should be the concern of all democracies, Dion said. “Any threat to Israel’s right to exist is an attack on the values of every democracy. Israel’s struggle for peace and security is our struggle.”

He said the Liberals support “the right of Israel, like any other state, to be free of threats or acts of force,” and the party backs a two-state solution.

He also denounced anti-Semitism.“The struggle of the Jewish people against anti-Semitism concerns all people.”

Recalling the 2004 firebombing of the United Talmud Torahs school, which is in Dion’s riding, and the attempted firebombing of the YM-YWHA this Passover, he called the incidents “an attack on the values of every Canadian. These children are my children.”

I think if you want to say Stephane Dion is antisemitic or anti-Israel, you are barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not sure if it is your contention to say that Dion is racist and anti-Israel or not. Is it?

I'm not claiming Stephane Dion is antisemitic or anti-Israel. I'm asking you to support the claim you made earlier, which I note you've again failed to do.

You claimed that Dion was "well out front in support" among Jews. While you provided us with a heartwarming video and a number of press releases showing that Dion supports Jews, you've yet again failed to demonstrate that Jews support Dion.

-k

[Guest chilipeppers]

Speak out against what exactly, I have never heard anything of which you speak. I'm on a board for CPC and have been in more than one riding, I have heard nothing that resembles anything you say. I suppose there are isolated incidents and if so it does not prove that ALL tories are xenophobic etc. Please provide proof.

The (then) newly formed Conservative party’s candidate team had the largest % of visible minority individuals. Of their 308 candidates, 33 or 10.7% were visible minorities, just ahead of the NDP with 29 visible minorities (9.4%) and the Liberals with 26 (8.4%) I don't have the stats for the last election.

Throughout the thread I have, on a number of occasions, stated that I am not speaking about the CPC itself, but rather, its supporters. In order to attract more minorities, you need to speak out against the xenophobes and/or white supremacists who are by and large attracted to your political party. As I said, Harper is making that effort and I applaud him for it. But in a forum such as this, I see nothing but apologists for such behaviour.

In that case you willl have to be more specific as I have not seen anything of which you speak on this forum, please point out the posts you refer to. I can't speak about these accusations or apologists for such behaviour or Harper speaking out as I am not aware of any of this. Perhaps its a BC thing?

[BC_chick]

Before you wanted to look at this in terms of whether a group with power was causing disadvantage to a group without power. Now you want to attach notions of racial supremacy to the definition. You are just freakin' slippery.

Actually, in another post I explained that I should have probably been more specific in the usage of my terminology because the general use of the word "racist" ended up causing a lot of grief and misunderstanding due to its vague nature. You must have missed that post. Either case, it's not about being slippery, it's about redefining it in a more specific manner instead of a general vague term.

"They is stealin' jobs from white folks!" has long been one of the most common complaints that bigots make about immigrants. Why is it racist when it comes from the mouth of an unemployed labourer, but "ok" when it comes from labour unions?

What about "They should go back where they came from. This is country with Northern European traditions and roots, and these people from other places just don't belong. I am not saying they are inferior. They are equal. They should just go be equal back in their own country." Hey, it specifically disavows white supremacy, right? So it's ok? Not racist? One can find arguments in that vein at anti-immigration and white-supremacist websites. Are they ok as long as they don't make claims of racial superiority?

Xenophobes and white supremacists are not necessarily mutually inclusive of each other, you can be a xenophobe without being a white-supremacist, or you can be both, where your xenophobe attitude stems from a feeling of supremacy. Though I would personally disagree with both, I can understand xenophobia more so than I can supremacy. Not sure though what the relevance of your argument here with what I was initially saying.

I have seen nothing of the sort. Please be specific, and cite messages which you think make apology for white supremacist ideas, and we can discuss it.

What is Stephen Harper supposed to speak out against? I'm not actually aware of any racist incidents that have occured during his leadership, which doesn't actually give him much to speak out against. He's been nothing but supportive of reaching out to ethnic and religious minorities.

Harper made full apology on behalf of Canada for the Chinese Head Tax, something the Liberals have steadfastly refused to do. Doesn't that speak for itself?

Yep, I have commended Harper several times on trying to reach out to minority voters.

[BC_chick]

In that case you willl have to be more specific as I have not seen anything of which you speak on this forum, please point out the posts you refer to. I can't speak about these accusations or apologists for such behaviour or Harper speaking out as I am not aware of any of this. Perhaps its a BC thing?

You don't see the posts where some of your fellow conservatives belittle other cultures and/or express disdain for multiculturalism?

I rest my case.

[kimmy]

The only example of anti-semitism in your post, kimmy, is the last one because it had to do with Mrs. Rae's religion and not Israel itself. It was a disgusting incident which was denounced by Liberal Party members.

Well for now, we'll just leave aside the question of whether it is antisemitic to publicly support an organization whose goal is killing Jewish people.

Isn't the fact that delegates were roaming the floor at the leadership convention distributing antisemitic leaflets in itself is more than sufficient to disprove your claim about all bigots being CPC supporters.

In fact I don't know if there has ever been an equally shocking incident relating to the CPC or its predecessors.

Nonetheless, many Jewish Canadians left the party because of the actions of those few members. So if to you it's perfectly understandable why some Jews would leave a political party because of the actions of a few party members, then please grant me the same level of understanding when I say a few members of the CPC spoil it for the rest of you.

Fair?

You can certainly support whichever party you wish for whatever reasons you choose.

My goal, all along, has not been to change your view, just to destroy your holier-than-thou claims regarding bigots being almost exclusive supporters of the CPC. And I feel I have succeeded.

-k

[BC_chick]

My goal, all along, has not been to change your view, just to destroy your holier-than-thou claims regarding bigots being almost exclusive supporters of the CPC. And I feel I have succeeded.

Well, if you'd follow the thread, you'd notice that I'd redefined the general use of the term "racist" and instead of using such a broad definition I narrowed it down to xenophobes and/or supremacists.

Under this definition, your "goal" is yet to be achieved.

[Argus]

In what way am I an extremist on any subject? You've actually done a study in order to conclude what the contents are of "96% of what I post?

Hurtful? Who is hurt? Whiny, thoughtless, emotionally insecure ideologues who post without thought, and whose idea of research is to check an internet site of like-minded twits?

Well... good.

Do you need a hug??

Just intelligent discussion: not something you're capable of providing.

[Argus]

First off, the CPC and prior to that Alliance, had the most minorities in their party. If minorities don't support the CPC it is mainly due to the image cultivated by the Liberals that they, and only they support immigrants.

Alliance/CPC are no more. You can't cling to old ideas to prove the absence of something in new ones.

I bet if I check back I'll find posts by you saying that the "good old conservative party" is no more because it's overrun with evil Alliance/Reform types that are all "neo cons" and of course, pure evil.

So tell me, if you accept that a non-white can be a bigot - why do you think you aren't one?

[Argus]

I know that you work with a number of qualified immigrants, no doubt. But let me tell you a story which might open your eyes to the realities of what we don't see in the workplace. I was working in a company years ago and they were hiring for a new position. A couple of people I knew (and hung out with after work) were sifting through the resumes and they were throwing out every resume with an Asian, South-East Asian or Midle-Eastern name. I was shocked, I asked how on earth I was ever hired. They laughed and said a different person in the company hired me and they implied that I was hired based on my looks. Sure, I'm not saying it's impossible for us to get jobs, but how many times out there is our resume thrown out and we don't know about it? In hindsight, I've often wished I reported that firm.

Except there is no evidence that Asians have more trouble finding work than anyone else. In fact, most of the Asian community is doing quite well in Canada economically.

It has been mye experience of Asians, btw, that they are, as a group, far and away more racist towards Black people than Whites are. Would you care to dispute that? I know of several Asians who would not dream of hiring a Black man under any circumstances.

[Argus]

In that case you willl have to be more specific as I have not seen anything of which you speak on this forum, please point out the posts you refer to. I can't speak about these accusations or apologists for such behaviour or Harper speaking out as I am not aware of any of this. Perhaps its a BC thing?

You don't see the posts where some of your fellow conservatives belittle other cultures and/or express disdain for multiculturalism?

I rest my case.

You rest your case? What? Does that mean you're not going to continue to try to redefine what racism is? Now you've got it down to "Anyone who "expresses disdain for multiculturalism" which pretty much includes two thirds of the country, and anyone who "belittles other cultures", which is virtually everyone.

A man tells me a Somalian has been hired. He is aghast. Why do we let Muslims into this country? Don't we know that Somalians are all thieves!? I better hide anything valuable before this guy starts work or it'll disappear!

Racist? The guy who spoke to me was a Black man, and an immigrant. Now is it still racist?

Suppose I mock the idea that women have to be covered head to do in a burkha, that they shouldn't be allowed to drive, shouldn't be educated, and should have their clitoris' cut off at ten? Am I a racist for that? I am, after all "belittling" other's cultures.

[kimmy]

Before you wanted to look at this in terms of whether a group with power was causing disadvantage to a group without power. Now you want to attach notions of racial supremacy to the definition. You are just freakin' slippery.

Actually, in another post I explained that I should have probably been more specific in the usage of my terminology because the general use of the word "racist" ended up causing a lot of grief and misunderstanding due to its vague nature. You must have missed that post. Either case, it's not about being slippery, it's about redefining it in a more specific manner instead of a general vague term.

Initially you made the bold and expansive claim that every racist in the country is a Conservative. Confronted with the notion that one needn't be white to be a racist, you amended your statement to "bigots", which in your opinion made reference to the idea of a privileged group using power to an underprivileged group. Confronted with the background of anti-immigrant sentiment in the labour movement, you further amended it to just xenophobes and white supremacists.

I suppose "xenophobes and white supremacists" might be sufficiently narrow for you to excuse the skinhead-like activities at the Liberal leadership convention... but is it sufficiently narrow for you to overlook Mike Klander comparing Olivia Chow to a chow-chow? Or Andre Boisclair for expressing his dismay over all of the "slant-eyed" students he sees when he visits universities? You may need to further adjust your definition.

Well, if you'd follow the thread, you'd notice that I'd redefined the general use of the term "racist" and instead of using such a broad definition I narrowed it down to xenophobes and/or supremacists.

Under this definition, your "goal" is yet to be achieved.

Well, the definition keeps dwindling to the point where it now stands more or less at "kinds of bigots that BC Chick is uncomfortable with."

We started with "every racist is a conservative!" and right now, the state of your argument is pretty much "I am more comfortable with the kind of bigots in the Liberal party than the Conservative party." So overall I am fairly satisfied.

-k

[BC_chick]

First I was talking about power-dynamics in society whereby reverse racism does not have the same effect, I have not retracted on that and I stand by what I said. Second, on a completely separate issue, I agreed that my definition of racist was too broad and I redefined it within the context of my initial statement of how that pertains to the CPC supporters.

I notice that even though you have managed to have me acknowledge that my terminology was too loose, you continue to argue from that standpoint instead of addressing my grievance that xenophobe and/or white supremacists are for some reason attracted to the CPC.

Any comments on that?

[kimmy]

addressing my grievance that xenophobe and/or white supremacists are for some reason attracted to the CPC.

Any comments on that?

I don't agree with it. It might have been true of the Reform Party, and maybe even the Canadian Alliance, but I think that as the party has become more mainstream, people with extremist views have become dissatisfied with it.

I think that the reason Reform might have attracted extremists early on was that it's inherent in new movements. They attract people with viewpoints that aren't represented in existing options. People like pro-lifers and anti-immigrationists, whose views weren't represented by any existing party, jumped on the Reform bandwagon because they thought they might finally have an outlet for their views.

But that opportunity vanished years ago, as anything that would appeal to that constituency has long been weeded out of the party's policies as the Conservative party (and its predecessors) attracted larger and larger numbers of mainstream supporters.

I think it's an outdated perception that's no longer a reflection of the party or its supporters.

-k

[BC_chick]

I think it's an outdated perception that's no longer a reflection of the party or its supporters.

I wish what you say were true. But look on this forum for example, there are several people who post here who are anti-immigration and/or display supremacist attitudes. None of them support any party other than the CPC.

Of course, that is not to say that the NDP or the LPC don't have their share of kooks. Nor am I implying that Harper is proud to have these people represent him any more than Dion is to have idiots passing out anti-semitic pamphlets during the LPC convention.

I'm just pointing out that at times, certain elements within the CPC work against the very thing they are critical of - and that's an inability to gain more support from ethnic communities.

[jdobbin]

I'm not claiming Stephane Dion is antisemitic or anti-Israel. I'm asking you to support the claim you made earlier, which I note you've again failed to do.

You claimed that Dion was "well out front in support" among Jews. While you provided us with a heartwarming video and a number of press releases showing that Dion supports Jews, you've yet again failed to demonstrate that Jews support Dion.

You've got it all backwards. I was saying that DION was way out and visible in support of Israel, not the his support in terms of popularity was ahead of someone else's.

I was showing that he was getting ahead of the issue which his own people recognize has hurt the party.

I have no idea what the breakdown of the Jewish vote in Canada was for parties. Do you?

[scribblet]

You don't see the posts where some of your fellow conservatives belittle other cultures and/or express disdain for multiculturalism?

I rest my case.

I don't see any, I see people who don't agree with the concept of multiculturalism which is certainly NOT racist.

It is NOT racist to feel that we should not pay people to be different, it is NOT racist to question some of its (multicult.) assumptions.. Is it just liberalism which forces accusations of racism or just the result of irrational bias. There is nothing racist about being against a policy which has resulted in a cult of ethnicity fueled by government sponsored and financed Multiculturalism. The result has not been healthy. We are now composed of, not individuals, but of inviolable ethnic and racial groups, all of whom are pigging out at the taxpayers’ financial trough.

Group separatism only manages to magnify ethnic tensions and hostilities, which many people came to Canada to be free of. The growing diversity of our population should make our quest be for a more unifying and common culture.

[BC_chick]

It is NOT racist to feel that we should not pay people to be different, it is NOT racist to question some of its (multicult.) assumptions.. Is it just liberalism which forces accusations of racism or just the result of irrational bias. There is nothing racist about being against a policy which has resulted in a cult of ethnicity fueled by government sponsored and financed Multiculturalism. The result has not been healthy. We are now composed of, not individuals, but of inviolable ethnic and racial groups, all of whom are pigging out at the taxpayers’ financial trough.

I clearly made a distinction between xenophobia and racism earlier in the thread and I said that even though sometimes the former is based on the latter, that is not always the case. I went on to say that even though I personally disagree with both (for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion), I understand xenophobia more so than I do supremacy.

However, all I've been trying to say all along, is that as an visible-minority, pardon me for stating that I am not comfortable joining hands with a group who attracts vast number of people who do not want to see me in this country.

[scribblet]

It is NOT racist to feel that we should not pay people to be different, it is NOT racist to question some of its (multicult.) assumptions.. Is it just liberalism which forces accusations of racism or just the result of irrational bias. There is nothing racist about being against a policy which has resulted in a cult of ethnicity fueled by government sponsored and financed Multiculturalism. The result has not been healthy. We are now composed of, not individuals, but of inviolable ethnic and racial groups, all of whom are pigging out at the taxpayers’ financial trough.

I clearly made a distinction between xenophobia and racism earlier in the thread and I said that even though sometimes the former is based on the latter, that is not always the case. I went on to say that even though I personally disagree with both (for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion), I understand xenophobia more so than I do supremacy.

However, all I've been trying to say all along, is that as an visible-minority, pardon me for stating that I am not comfortable joining hands with a group who attracts vast number of people who do not want to see me in this country.

I don't know who 'you' are, or why they would not want to see you here, unless you are illegal, are a criminal, have no job skills and will need welfare. Your making pretty wide assumptions here and your trying to wriggle out of earler statements.

Accusations of racism is one method of stifling debate and restricting discussion.

[Michael Bluth]

However, all I've been trying to say all along, is that as an visible-minority, pardon me for stating that I am not comfortable joining hands with a group who attracts vast number of people who do not want to see me in this country.

That's really off-base.

It's not an outright lie, because I'm sure you have never been to a CPC meeting.

There aren't "vast numbers" of people who don't want to see visible minorities in the country.

At any given meeting the number of visible minorities will vastly outnumber the died in the wool racists.