More Seats in the House

[jbg]

You have to compare Western Canda to other provinces to get a true picture. In that sense, it's actually comparable. I did the math once too thinking it was unfair, but excluding Quebec, it's actually quite proportional.

Including the PEI Gang of Four for 120,000 people? Are you sure?

[geoffrey]

Compared to Quebec, every province experiences an unjust number of seats, that's not a fair comparison. It was part of the stipulations of the confederation if I'm not mistaken.

You have to compare Western Canda to other provinces to get a true picture. In that sense, it's actually comparable. I did the math once too thinking it was unfair, but excluding Quebec, it's actually quite proportional.

I think your mistaken. Alberta is pretty bad... BC is terribly underrepresented though. Exclude the Martimes in your calculations because their population is irrelevant to their seat count... and you'll find Alberta and BC as a block are hugely underrepresented compared to Quebec and considerably compared to Ontario.

[Michael Bluth]

I think your mistaken. Alberta is pretty bad... BC is terribly underrepresented though. Exclude the Martimes in your calculations because their population is irrelevant to their seat count... and you'll find Alberta and BC as a block are hugely underrepresented compared to Quebec and considerably compared to Ontario.

The Maritimes are over-represented because of the Senate floor provisions of Constitution Act 1867.

Quebec's over-representation was enshrined sometime in the 70's I believe.

Quebec isn't really all that over-represented.

They have a little over 23% of the population and a little over 24% of the seats in the house. So maybe two or three extra seats.

[geoffrey]

So maybe two or three extra seats.

I showed the calculation earlier in this thread. Comparing Alberta and BC to Quebec we are shortchanged about 10 seats.

With minority governments like they are today, 10 seats is HUGE.

[madmax]

Funny how the United States with over 10 times the population of Canada only has 435 members in the House (not including Senators)...

Do we have too many representatives?

Yes, We don't need a Senate.

Regarding the United States. They have other ways to bring up the numbers. Once you start looking at their government it isn't small or nimble.

[madmax]

Also makes an argument for some sort of US style senate to give some kind of balance before things get really stupid.

How does this make it any better? There are too many politicians already, and you want us to spend more money on a baby sitter? Our elected government doesn't need a baby sitter, anymore then it needs another elected government, to govern the government we elected.

[madmax]

You have to compare Western Canda to other provinces to get a true picture. In that sense, it's actually comparable. I did the math once too thinking it was unfair, but excluding Quebec, it's actually quite proportional.

Including the PEI Gang of Four for 120,000 people? Are you sure?

Yup, I am certain.

This is a little known element we have hidden from you. Not only do we have a separate language, we have a separate math.

This is also why we don't have the same gallon as you. Not that we use it anymore, I mean that was just silly, and we decided to go Euro rather then become assimilated.

I could tell you why 4 MPs for 120,000 people is actually comparable, but all my math textbooks were made in the USA.

[Michael Bluth]

I showed the calculation earlier in this thread. Comparing Alberta and BC to Quebec we are shortchanged about 10 seats.

With minority governments like they are today, 10 seats is HUGE.

It's much more due to Alberta and BC being under represented than QC being over represented.

I think you used 11 seats before. Say that two of those are QC over representation, four for AB under representation and 5 for BC under representation.

[geoffrey]

It's much more due to Alberta and BC being under represented than QC being over represented.

I think you used 11 seats before. Say that two of those are QC over representation, four for AB under representation and 5 for BC under representation.

Yes. I said 11 seats is the difference, but Quebec does have ~100,000 more people so they should have 1 more seat.

That means we need 10 between BC and Alberta... by 2011, that's going to be a much bigger number. Alberta is growing at around a seat per year, if not more, and BC is just under that. We could see a fair addition to be about 14-16 seats easily by 2011. Could you imagine? That'd shift the entire political dynamic of the country.

Unfortunately, as long as the power remains in the East, I have a hard time believing Alberta will see the 8ish seats and BC the 8ish they'll need if population growth remains solid through 2011. I'm assuming a ~100k per seat rule.

Interestingly, Alberta's real GDP (not per capita) may surpass Quebec's in the near future if trends (population and economic) continue, despite Quebec having nearly double the population. That's alot of trust in Quebec's handling of our money... personally, I don't trust Quebec politicans further than I can throw them.

[madmax]

I don't trust Quebec politicans further than I can throw them.

Fortier comes to mind.

[BC_chick]

I think your mistaken. Alberta is pretty bad... BC is terribly underrepresented though. Exclude the Martimes in your calculations because their population is irrelevant to their seat count... and you'll find Alberta and BC as a block are hugely underrepresented compared to Quebec and considerably compared to Ontario.

Quebec, as I said, yes. It's the same comparing Quebec to any province.

But....

Ontario, population 12 million, 106 seats = around 113,000 per seat.

BC, population 4 million, 36 seats = around 100,000 per seat.

Alberta, though a little worse than I remember is still not that bad. Population 3.3 million, 28 seats = 117,000 per seat.

[Remiel]

If provinces are getting behind, then go ahead and top them up. But, why would you base seat adjustments on projected results, and not real results? That is not how elections works.

[jbg]

Regarding the United States. They have other ways to bring up the numbers. Once you start looking at their government it isn't small or nimble.

Proportionally to Canada it's extremely small. Add the States and Washington together, then add Ottawa and the Provinces together, and the comparison is staggering. Canada has about the same population as California and a lot more government, certainly, than even California, which, by US standards, is heavily "governed".

[jbg]

Also makes an argument for some sort of US style senate to give some kind of balance before things get really stupid.

How does this make it any better? There are too many politicians already, and you want us to spend more money on a baby sitter? Our elected government doesn't need a baby sitter, anymore then it needs another elected government, to govern the government we elected.

What an elected Senate does, at least Stateside, is probide for a separate body, elected by a different formula, to ensure that legislation reflects a true national consensus, rather than a tyranny of one geographical region over another.

[Wilber]

Also makes an argument for some sort of US style senate to give some kind of balance before things get really stupid.

How does this make it any better? There are too many politicians already, and you want us to spend more money on a baby sitter? Our elected government doesn't need a baby sitter, anymore then it needs another elected government, to govern the government we elected.

The Congress reflects representation by population, the Senate by state. That system actually allows them to have fewer representatives in relation to their population. We are destined to have an ever increasing number because we can only increase representation in areas where population is growing in order to maintain a balance. We can't reduce them where it is not.

[Wilber]

According to the latest census and the current Pariliament, population per seat of the largest provinces breaks down to.

Alta 117,000

BC 115,000

Ontario 114,000

Quebec 100,500

Man 82,000

Sask 69,000

Edited to correct Man and Sask. I had them backwards.

[geoffrey]

BC, population 4 million, 36 seats = around 100,000 per seat.

Your on the right track, you just need new batteries in the calculator .

Wilbers totals are correct. Ontario needs seats too, but mostly us in the West are seriously underrepresented.

[BC_chick]

BC, population 4 million, 36 seats = around 100,000 per seat.

Your on the right track, you just need new batteries in the calculator .

Wilbers totals are correct. Ontario needs seats too, but mostly us in the West are seriously underrepresented.

If memory serves me right you said the west is not proportionally represented compared to Ontario and Quebec. I agreed about Quebec, as I have throughout the thread, but even Wilber's numbers which are pretty quite close to mine except BC (so I don't understand the nitpicking) don't show your claim about the west being under-represented. If anything Sask and Manitoba are over-represented compared to the other provinces who are more or less around the same 110-120 thousand figure.

[geoffrey]

If memory serves me right you said the west is not proportionally represented compare to Ontario and Quebec. I agreed about Quebec, as I have throughout the thread, but even Wilber's numbers which are pretty quite close to mine except BC (so I don't understand the nitpicking) don't show your claim about the west being under-represented. If anything Sask and Manitoba are over-represented compared to the other provinces who are more or less around the same 110-120 thousand figure.

Ah, ok, I see what your saying. Agreed.

I always thought the target was 100k/seat but I have no idea where I got that impression, am I wrong?

[cybercoma]

What an elected Senate does, at least Stateside, is probide for a separate body, elected by a different formula, to ensure that legislation reflects a true national consensus, rather than a tyranny of one geographical region over another.

which is a fantastic idea so the provinces in the maritimes don't get left by the wayside by Ontario and Quebec.

[geoffrey]

which is a fantastic idea so the provinces in the maritimes don't get left by the wayside by Ontario and Quebec.

I don't think the Maritimes have much if any right to complain about representation.

[cybercoma]

There's a good question, what happens when populations drop? I can't think of a good Canadian example, but Detroit, MI has dropped below 1,000,000 people in their last census, I think. Can we take seats away from areas? Can we redraw boundaries? If all we ever do is increase parliament, there's going to come a time when there are too many members.

I happen to think there's already too many, when you consider the entire nation has about the same population as California. Perhaps parliament needs to be smaller and maybe we need a senate made up of 1 representative from each province.

geoffrey... I meant if representation was the same across the board. One MP for every ______ people. I don't know what a good number would be.

[geoffrey]

1 MP for every 250,000 would be a good idea in my books. That'd give us about 130 MPs. The problem is that number is so big it causes problems.

Does PEI get one, or half of one?... Actually, other than that it seems like it works out ok...

[Canuck E Stan]

Does PEI get one, or half of one?... Actually, other than that it seems like it works out ok...

A lot of the MP's are only there mentally or physically half the time, that's probably why we need more.

[mcqueen625]

Funny how the United States with over 10 times the population of Canada only has 435 members in the House (not including Senators)...

Do we have too many representatives?

Per Capita we have far more government than does the United States, and it is far too much government for the population of Canada. No wonder our taxes are so high, every time a crisis in anything is perceived in government the Canadian way of dealing with it seems to be by creating another bureaucracy to throw at it. I for one am sick and tires of paying useless bureaucrats who spend most of their time dreaming up ways in whcih to justify their very existance. We need less government, not more, and equal representation from each jurisdiction would mean that no one area has more influence than another, the same should apply to the Senate, and the Supreme Court, and both the Senate and the Judiciary should be elected to specific terms to make them accountable to someone besides themselves..