Taliban Prisoner Poll

[Michael Bluth]

I guess Paul Martin had no choice but to give some funding.

But didn't you say earlier that he weakened the military?

He weakened the military by not giving enough funding.

[BC_chick]

It's impossible for the Liberals to put down and feel superior to the USA....when we end up relying on the USA!

Liberals bash the US as much as Conservatives did while Clinton was president. IOW, neither of us bash the country, though we do at times bash its leadership depending on our own personal views.

[betsy]

I was actually visiting Indonesia when the tsunami struck so I remember rather vividly that it was 2004.

The 12.8 billion dollar increase came in the 2005 budget. Poor Paul Martin was so tainted by the sponsorship scandal that he never got the credit he deserved for the largest increase in Canadian military spending since World War II.

I guess Paul Martin had no choice but to give some funding.

But didn't you say earlier that he weakened the military?

I didn't say Paul Martin had weakened the military. I said:

The Liberals practical made the mistake of weakening our military....

...and I gave a link that supports that argument.

[betsy]

It's impossible for the Liberals to put down and feel superior to the USA....when we end up relying on the USA!

Liberals bash the US as much as Conservatives did while Clinton was president. IOW, neither of us bash the country, though we do at times bash its leadership depending on our own personal views.

Well, the trashy comment of Parrish is still fresh in my memory..."I hate those damn Americans!"

I don't know of any trashy bashings the Conservatives may have done to the USA or its leaders. Criticisms, maybe.

But downright insults and undignified behaviours that is unbecoming of any political leaders and MPs...we've witnessed a spate of them during the Chretien and Paul Martin years.

[betsy]

And Norm,

As for Martin's "generosity" of finally giving some funding...well, how can he ignore the humiliating fact that our soldiers had to bum a ride to reach a destination?

The snickers and nudge-nudge-wink-winks of other leaders and dignitaries must've been resounding in the halls of the world community!

It was humiliating! Not only for us all...but especially for our soldiers!

[normanchateau]

But didn't you say earlier that he weakened the military?

I didn't say Paul Martin had weakened the military. I said:

The Liberals practical made the mistake of weakening our military....

So you acknowledge that Paul Martin increased military spending by 12.8 billion dollars in his 2005 budget, the largest increase in military spending since World War II?

[betsy]

So you acknowledge that Paul Martin increased military spending by 12.8 billion dollars in his 2005 budget, the largest increase in military spending since World War II?

I don't remember any specific amount....but yes, he did give some funding.

After the humiliating and humbling incident...our own troops, bumming for a ride!

From our nextdoor neighbor!

After the trashy behaviours of our Liberal MPs towards this neighbor.

Boy, that's gotta be too hard to swallow.

[kuzadd]

Why should we expect them to be worried about our own soldiers? We are their enemy!

Why would you underestimate them and assume they'll think like our Opposition leaders?

They may be fanatics....but I don't think they're idiotic!

Oh I get it. This is the strategy like....."let's appease them, guys. Keep a low profile, and MAYBE they won't do any 9/11 on us."

It's not enough that our troops don't torture them....our troops must also protect them!

Heck, even Hitler thought he was righteous in ridding the world of Jews and other considered "garbage" of humanity.

Where did you ever see a war where-in soldiers protect their enemies???

What do you think this is? Paintball shooting?

Talk about cockamamie and unable to grasp! Stop spitting in the wind! It's not funny. Lol.

'spitting in the wind" hilarious!

and may I say, wow, to all your assumptions, I don't know how you did it, but it is quite amazing!

first of betsy, we are NOT the enemies of the Afghani's we are alleged to be there helping, rebuilding them, so, I don't know what you are talking about , and clearly you have a different agenda then one the gov is informing us of.

secondly if you don't expect that Afghani prisoners of war to be allowed some types of appropriate pow treatment, then please do not expect canadians to be granted the same, when they become pow's. yet, I am certain you will be here shrieking &shrilling for those rights.

Thirdly, it is of utmost importance they are given there appropriate rights, because as we have seen, too often, largely innocent people have been imprisoned, tortured, and died. Citing abu ghraib, in particular, which had about 90 percent of the prison population of people, inc. children who were just rounded up.

They hadn't done anything, in partic, wrong place/wrong time.

Then were subjected to beatings, rapes etc.,

"Heck, even Hitler thought he was righteous in ridding the world of Jews and other considered "garbage" of humanity. "

yes, and Bush and the Bushites think they are righteous in ridding the world of Arab/Muslims, in the bogus war on terrorism because allegedly they have a 'world take over plan', lol, same claims Hitler made of the Jews!

now that is chimerical!!!

[Keepitsimple]

secondly if you don't expect that Afghani prisoners of war to be allowed some types of appropriate pow treatment, then please do not expect canadians to be granted the same, when they become pow's. yet, I am certain you will be here shrieking &shrilling for those rights.

Pretty naive.....the Taliban hold prisoners of war? They kill everyone!

Here's an interesting article from this morning's Toronto Sun. It's a give-and-take on Afghanistan's torture issue between Licia Corbella and Sheila Copps. I don't think it's copyright so I'll include in here in addition to the link. It's worth reading:

Beatings of detainees part of Afghan life

CORBELLA: I thought Liberal party members were supposed to be culturally sensitive? Then why the outrage about Taliban prisoners getting beaten by Afghan authorities? Like it or not, beatings are the Afghan way. I know this because I have been to Afghanistan and witnessed people getting beaten there daily -- children, women, men.

COPPS: The whole point of our presence in Afghanistan is that we are not the Taliban. By your logic any intervention outside Canada should ignore the rules of natural justice and throw the Geneva Convention out the window. George W. may cherry pick parts of the convention he ignores but thankfully most Americans now have his number. If Stephen Harper thinks this is just a liberal issue he is heading down the same solitary road. Unlike George W., Harper can actually run again. But not on his Taliban platform.

CORBELLA: I'm being somewhat facetious, obviously, but my point is well founded. It appears Liberals care more about human rights of our ethnic minorities outside our borders than within -- or when they can score political points. How else to explain the Ontario Liberals coming close to allowing sharia law in that province? Sharia law runs counter to every tenet of democracy, equality and fairness, and yet Liberals were embracing it wholeheartedly. That's what I'm talking about, Sheila. Liberal hypocrisy.

COPPS: I am afraid on this one you are mixing apples and hijabs. The fact is the Ontario government opposed sharia law and actually respected the separation of church and state. Previous governments (Tory) had actually implemented parallel systems for religious tribunals but the Grits turned it down. Do not allow your dislike for all things non-Tory to cloud your journalistic judgment. The only party that ever introduced religious-based justice tribunals was not liberal (in any sense of the word).

CORBELLA: Gee, that's funny, all the news stories say it was Dalton McGuinty's government that was going to allow the medieval system of sharia to become law in Ontario. Sorry, Sheila, you can't blame the Tories this time. But you're missing my main point. It's people like, well, you, who for decades now have been telling Canadians we have no dominant or real culture. Official multiculturalism states all cultural traditions are of equal value and benefit to Canada. To even insinuate Canada is founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic and the British Parliamentary system and rule of law causes rabid foaming of the mouth and charges of racism and intolerance to be thrown about.

COPPS: The religious tribunals predated the sharia debate. But the bogus rap on muticulturalism applies in Canada or Afghanistan. This is not about cultural sensitivity. It is about ensuring Canadians are upholding the laws of justice and prisoner treatment whenever and wherever we are involved. Otherwise, why even bother fighting in Afghanistan to build democracy? Democracy guarantees rights, including rights of prisoners. I know neo-cons may not like the spread of our liberal values. If not stay home and rattle minority cages in Canada.

CORBELLA: Ah, so Canada does have "values?" You just proved my point. Canada has a dominant culture worth defending and democracy is part of that. It is a shame Taliban prisoners are being beaten by Afghan authorities once Canadians turn them over. The feds are trying to remedy that. Our troops are trying, in part, to teach them "our" values. When I was in Afghanistan, I saw children and women getting beaten, often for no apparent reason. Most Afghans live, at least by our standards, in squalid conditions. No indoor plumbing or heat and not enough food. Those I met said they were far better off than during the Taliban. These are the same complaints being made by some prisoners. To expect prisoners would be treated better than the general populace is admirable, but it will take time. It's a process, Sheila, and like it or not, we are exporting our culture because our culture is better. That is a statement most people in your party have trouble acknowledging. Do you deny this?

COPPS: You would be hard pressed to find any Afghan or Canadian for that matter who would prefer someone else's culture to their own. But you are mixing culture with human rights. There is no single dominant better culture than another. They are simply different. Just pick up a copy of the Newfoundland dictionary and you will see the distinctiveness of their culture. The history and geography of Alberta create a uniqueness that is not better or worse, only different. And as for Quebec, vive la difference. Many cultures make a great country. Afghan people have many deep cultural roots and differences. We are helping build on their culture, not destroy it. Cultural imperialism means certain failure here or there.

CORBELLA: That's what I was hoping you'd say and again, you're proving my point. Your comment: "There is no single dominant better culture than another," is relativistic nonsense. If you really believe that then you would have to agree that suttee -- the Hindu practice of throwing widows on their husband's funeral pyre -- is OK. After all, according to you, that's neither worse nor better, just "different." I agree many cultures make for a great Canada, as long as newcomers embrace and accept -- as most newcomers to Canada do -- the main tenets of our Canadian culture -- freedom, democracy, equality -- all founded on Judeo-Christian principles and British rule of law. People clamour to come here because of those values, not suttee or Sharia. Ultimately, you have defeated your own argument. If we were truly culturally sensitive then prison beatings in Afghanistan wouldn't be a big deal. Beatings are a part of Afghan life. We think they're a big deal because we are exporting our values -- which include the Geneva Convention -- to Afghanistan. But it takes time. It is not something you turn on like a light switch.

COPPS: No culture is above the law and if a Christian man beats his wife, is he doing it as a faith-based act? Obviously not. Culture is not synonymous with thuggery.

CORBELLA: No culture is above the law? The point is, different cultures have different laws. Some cultures would throw both you and me in jail simply for being outspoken or driving our cars. We have the best laws because we have the best culture and that's why we have the best country. It's all linked. Official multiculturalism is great when limited to food, dance, different peoples and other pleasantries, but leave our Canadian values alone. The time has come for Canada to define its culture and refuse to bend on it as your party so often insists it do. To do otherwise will be the ruin of Canada.

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...pf-4160007.html

[normanchateau]

So you acknowledge that Paul Martin increased military spending by 12.8 billion dollars in his 2005 budget, the largest increase in military spending since World War II?

I don't remember any specific amount....but yes, he did give some funding.

What Canadian Prime Minister increased it by more than 12.8 billion?

[betsy]

first of betsy, we are NOT the enemies of the Afghani's we are alleged to be there helping, rebuilding them, so, I don't know what you are talking about , and clearly you have a different agenda then one the gov is informing us of.

Who doesn't know that???? How often does that need to be repeated?

The Taliban is the enemy!

Yes, we're there to help them rebuild! Which also involves participating in combat missions!

secondly if you don't expect that Afghani prisoners of war to be allowed some types of appropriate pow treatment, then please do not expect canadians to be granted the same, when they become pow's. yet, I am certain you will be here shrieking &shrilling for those rights.

You see, just because you think that way, doesn't mean I think that way.

First of all, why would I expect any humane treatment from the Taliban? They're not signatory of the Geneva Conventions! We've heard how they treated the Afghan population. We've heard how they stopped little girls on their way to school, and beheaded them right on the spot just for going to school. We've heard how practice of torture is a part of life in the whole region.

If they do happen to treat you humanely...then thank your lucky stars!

But its is self-delusional to think that you'd be treated humanely just because you showed utmost compassion and bended over backwards to protect your enemies. Since when do you protect your enemies?

If you remind them about your kindness.... Most likely, you'd be getting backhand slaps on the head and jeering taunts of "you pathetic stupid western cowards!"

They see your gestures of kindness as a show of weakness! Remember that well! Because in the future, if ever the Liberals have their way....you'll need to know it.

Thirdly, it is of utmost importance they are given there appropriate rights, because as we have seen, too often, largely innocent people have been imprisoned, tortured, and died. Citing abu ghraib, in particular, which had about 90 percent of the prison population of people, inc. children who were just rounded up.

They hadn't done anything, in partic, wrong place/wrong time.

Then were subjected to beatings, rapes etc.,

That is being looked after by Human Rights people and NATO, I believe.

yes, and Bush and the Bushites think they are righteous in ridding the world of Arab/Muslims, in the bogus war on terrorism because allegedly they have a 'world take over plan', lol, same claims Hitler made of the Jews! now that is chimerical!!!

Well, you've just lost your argument here. This is nothing more than an irrational anti-Bush rant!

If ever your only choice of leader is Bush or Bin Laden....come back and tell me whom you'd follow.....actually, neither answer would surprise me.

[normanchateau]

The Taliban is the enemy!

Yes they are. So what is the better strategy. Negotiating with them as President Karzai is now doing and has publicly acknowledged? Or torturing them?

[Keepitsimple]

So you acknowledge that Paul Martin increased military spending by 12.8 billion dollars in his 2005 budget, the largest increase in military spending since World War II?

I don't remember any specific amount....but yes, he did give some funding.

What Canadian Prime Minister increased it by more than 12.8 billion?

That increase is over 5 years and is "catch-up" money for a lot of neglect. It's pretty easy to increase something when you've starved it for funds for 10 years. More correctly, has there ever been a government that has reduced spending in the area of National Defence by as much as the Liberals did? Blame it on the deficit if you like but it's a fact. Here's an excerpt from a 2002 Macleans article:

In recent years, the alarm over the crumbling state of Canada's military has been sounded so many times that it has ceased to cause any panic. Between 1993 and 1998, the Department of National Defence saw its budget slashed by 23 per cent as the federal government wrestled with the deficit. Bases were closed, equipment purchases were postponed, the military trimmed 27,000 positions, and commitments to NATO and peacekeeping were reduced. While Ottawa has returned funding to early-1990s levels, the lion's share of the new money - $3.9 billion - has gone to improve pay and living conditions for soldiers, sailors and air crews. Now, defence supporters are calling for a massive cash infusion to upgrade or replace the military's aging hardware. (Among the priorities: replacing the navy's 40-year-old Sea King helicopters. The Liberals cancelled a $4.4-billion chopper deal in 1993, but have yet to approve a scaled-back $3-billion version of the project.)

Link: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ind...s=M1ARTM0012331

[normanchateau]

So you acknowledge that Paul Martin increased military spending by 12.8 billion dollars in his 2005 budget, the largest increase in military spending since World War II?

I don't remember any specific amount....but yes, he did give some funding.

What Canadian Prime Minister increased it by more than 12.8 billion?

That increase is over 5 years and is "catch-up" money for a lot of neglect.

Oh in that case it doesn't count at all. Paul Martin obviously deserves no credit for the much needed spending increase. Thanks for the clarification.

[kuzadd]

'betsy' post='216683' date='May 7 2007, 07:43 AM']

..........

'

Well, you've just lost your argument here. This is nothing more than an irrational anti-Bush rant!

If ever your only choice of leader is Bush or Bin Laden....come back and tell me whom you'd follow.....actually, neither answer would surprise me.'

wow, labelled and assumptive.

Your assuming all prisoners are "Taliban" but you do NOT KNOW that.

Unless you are the all knowing Swami?

'

But its is self-delusional to think that you'd be treated humanely just because you showed utmost compassion and bended over backwards to protect your enemies. Most likely, you'd be getting backhand slaps on the head and jeering taunts of "you pathetic stupid western cowards!"

They see your gestures of kindness as a show of weakness! Remember that well! Because in the future, if ever the Liberals have their way....you'll need to know it."

Yes, like the POW's got urinated and defecated and electrocuted and beaten and raped, by there American captors, far worse then some slaps to the head. How humanely the west treated them, of course, of course the Taliban are much worse, maybe you'd get a beating, oops never mind, the west already beat them to it!

How many jeering taunts, have the Afghani's and Iraqis already borne at the hands of the west?

Oh yes, one cannot forget the gangraping of that 14 yr old girl by american soldiers, the murder of her family and then the burning of their bodies.

and more, and more and more!!!!

You choose to forget how the western captors showed their true colours and still are, no surprise there.!

But wait, please, quickly dismiss it as a few bad apples, for the west, and rampant on the "other" side

a complete black and white , either or response. as expected.

spoken like a" good german".

There is more to life, then either/ or.

BTW: when you see me speaking as a liberal supporter, ever let me know, ok?

This is not a liberal party/conservativeparty issue, IMO.

Nor is it a "right"/"left" issue.

rather it is a morality/human rights issue, of which I dare say, you are displaying very little of, IMO.

[Catchme]

first of betsy, we are NOT the enemies of the Afghani's we are alleged to be there helping, rebuilding them, so, I don't know what you are talking about , and clearly you have a different agenda then one the gov is informing us of.

Who doesn't know that???? How often does that need to be repeated?

Yes, we're there to help them rebuild! Which also involves participating in combat missions!

No, actually, it doesn't have to.

secondly if you don't expect that Afghani prisoners of war to be allowed some types of appropriate pow treatment, then please do not expect canadians to be granted the same, when they become pow's. yet, I am certain you will be here shrieking &shrilling for those rights.

You see, just because you think that way, doesn't mean I think that way.

First of all, why would I expect any humane treatment from the Taliban? They're not signatory of the Geneva Conventions!

Uh, but we are signatories, and yet you are okay with what is happening to detainees. This makes no sense.

We've heard how they treated the Afghan population. We've heard how they stopped little girls on their way to school, and beheaded them right on the spot just for going to school.

What about how the Karzi government treats the Afghan people?

But its is self-delusional to think that you'd be treated humanely just because you showed utmost compassion and bended over backwards to protect your enemies.

Why would that be?

Since when do you protect your enemies?

That is what the Geneva Convention does, actually, protects enemies from abuses by by one another.

If you remind them about your kindness.... Most likely, you'd be getting backhand slaps on the head and jeering taunts of "you pathetic stupid western cowards!"

They see your gestures of kindness as a show of weakness! Remember that well! Because in the future, if ever the Liberals have their way....you'll need to know it.

This is a bunch of emotional rhetoric, that has no substance or reality.

Thirdly, it is of utmost importance they are given there appropriate rights, because as we have seen, too often, largely innocent people have been imprisoned, tortured, and died. Citing abu ghraib, in particular, which had about 90 percent of the prison population of people, inc. children who were just rounded up.

They hadn't done anything, in partic, wrong place/wrong time.

Then were subjected to beatings, rapes etc.,

That is being looked after by Human Rights people and NATO, I believe.

And???? So what is you point saying this? That does not excuse any such actions, and WE ARE part of NATO

yes, and Bush and the Bushites think they are righteous in ridding the world of Arab/Muslims, in the bogus war on terrorism because allegedly they have a 'world take over plan', lol, same claims Hitler made of the Jews! now that is chimerical!!!

Well, you've just lost your argument here. This is nothing more than an irrational anti-Bush rant!

Absolute complete nonsense, there was no rant, and speaking out against the actions of the Bush government considering the autrocites they have committed, what their other actions are/were, is not "anti-Bush" rant. It is exposing truth, to those who would gloss over human rights abuses.

[betsy]

yes, and Bush and the Bushites think they are righteous in ridding the world of Arab/Muslims,

wow, labelled and assumptive.

Your assuming all prisoners are "Taliban" but you do NOT KNOW that.

Unless you are the all knowing Swami?

See what I mean about spitting in the wind? You did it again!

Lol. I'm outa here....

[normanchateau]

So you acknowledge that Paul Martin increased military spending by 12.8 billion dollars in his 2005 budget, the largest increase in military spending since World War II?

I don't remember any specific amount....but yes, he did give some funding.

What Canadian Prime Minister increased it by more than 12.8 billion?

That increase is over 5 years and is "catch-up" money for a lot of neglect. It's pretty easy to increase something when you've starved it for funds for 10 years.

"During the last year of Liberal government rule, the Department of National Defence (DND) spent $14.7-billion in the 2005 fiscal year. The amount represented 8.4 per cent of Ottawa’s total program spending.

In fact, the military share of overall program spending actually dropped from 8.4 per cent to 8.0 per cent last year (under the Conservatives) because non-defence spending increased at a faster rate."

Source: Canadian Taxpayers Federation

http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2547