Venezuela nationalizes oil industry.

[speaker]

Hey you don't need to tell me, I can't figure out why people keep throwing freedom of the press, and crowd suppression into the discussion when they are obviously not pertinent to the discussion because they aren't just in venezuela but are a world-wide problem.

So tell me B Max, doesn't theft mean taking without compensation? In each case I've found there are written agreements for the transfers, and Exxon shares went up after the deals were finalized. Doesn't sound like theft to me.

http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=44350

[M.Dancer]

...he might say he works for the poor...maybe that's why there are so so many poor in venuzuela....gives him job security.

Or maybe the reason there are so many poor is that this is the first Venezuelan government that hasn't been pro North American Corporate graft and greed. .

True....perhaps if Chavez was intent on alienating the entreprenuruial energies there would be more people working.....and givennthat 64% or in the service sector while unemployment hovers near 9%......

He must have a fair bit of popular support or his government wouldn't have lasted through the bloody coup attempt

estimates put the death toll between 40 and 50.....which coincidently is about 1/2 the weekly murder rate in Caracas..........

Therefore he must be doing something right by his constituents. Whether it is socialism or South American capitalism, or something completely different in the process of developing it deserves the chance to work it out.

It's more likey fascism.....but if you think it deserves a chance to stifle free speech and imprison political opponents.........all righty then

[B. Max]

name='speaker' date='May 29 2007, 02:15 AM' post='222896']

Hey you don't need to tell me, I can't figure out why people keep throwing freedom of the press, and crowd suppression into the discussion when they are obviously not pertinent to the discussion because they aren't just in venezuela but are a world-wide problem.

It's all part and parcel of the troubles to come.

So tell me B Max, doesn't theft mean taking without compensation? In each case I've found there are written agreements for the transfers, and Exxon shares went up after the deals were finalized. Doesn't sound like theft to me.

It doesn't mention compensation. From what I've read in another article that some one posted here a while back they're a few billion short. The link you posted doesn't read like good news, and it looks like Exxon is getting out as fast as they can with what they can. My guess is they have an agreement with the US government to seize Venezuelan assets in the US and hand them over to Exxon to cover their losses. Chavez has been trying to sell his refineries in the US, trying to get clear of them. I expect the US has been quietly blocking those sales .

[speaker]

I think you are right B Max. I think as leaders get more insecure and unsuccessful in their attempts to maintain the status quo there will be more and more of this suppression of rights by government and industry working in concert. It's too bad but threatened people don't seem able to look on the bright side of change.

Take Exxon, if it is true that Venezuelan compensation falls a couple of Billion short of the companies expectations, they should look at these refineries as an opportunity to increase the productive capacity in North America and incidentally lower gas prices. After all I'm sure Exxon could do a much more efficient job of managing them than their current Venezuealan owners.

[speaker]

Sr. Chavez could learn some things from this board, M. Dancer. Just in this thread he has been called socialist, a communist, a tyrant, a national socialist, and a fascist. It just goes to show that no matter how hard you try you can't please everybody. You might as well be a Venezuelan and govern like one.

[M.Dancer]

Sr. Chavez could learn some things from this board, M. Dancer. Just in this thread he has been called socialist, a communist, a tyrant, a national socialist, and a fascist. It just goes to show that no matter how hard you try you can't please everybody. You might as well be a Venezuelan and govern like one.

Well, lets see......socialist, tyrant, national socialist and fascist are all pretty much synonyms.......

......he obviously isn't a communist because he is all to eager to work with Venezuelan capitalists......but he will work with communists if it furthers his national ambitions......

now on that note, should we look into Venezuelan territorial disputes to see why he is arming?

[speaker]

Well, lets see......socialist, tyrant, national socialist and fascist are all pretty much synonyms.......

......he obviously isn't a communist because he is all to eager to work with Venezuelan capitalists......but he will work with communists if it furthers his national ambitions......

This deserves one very large smiley face.

[GostHacked]

So why not call him an Opportunist then?? And if that is the case, every leader in every country is one.

Socialist is not the same as a communist.

I think Chavez is thinking of the future of the country. Nationalizing the oil is a start.

Let's see who else is doing this.

OH LOOK!!! Venezuela's neighbor Bolivia is doing the same thing.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_ameri...ivia_05-02.html

RAY SUAREZ: Under the terms of the decree, some 25 private gas companies have six months to renegotiate their contracts with the Bolivian government or be expelled, and they will be forced to sell at least 51 percent of their holdings to the state.

Bolivia is one of Latin America's poorest nations. Most of Bolivia's 9 million people get by on less than $2 a day. The country sits in the Andes Mountains, landlocked by Peru, Chile, Argentina and Brazil. Bolivia is rich in oil and gas reserves, the second largest in South America after Venezuela.

When Big Oil has oil going for 70 US dollars on the open market and Bolivians are making less than 2 US dollars a day, you can see that the money is not staying in Bolivia to help it's citizens. Imagine the standard of living that the Bolivians can have with even 4 US dollars a day or more from Bolivians managing the oil and gas themselves.

They'll be able to still make money. They won't make the kind of super-profits that you see the big oil companies making today, for example, big U.S. oil companies, but they'll still be able to make money.

Over in Chad we have the same thing

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/26/...usiness_1936803

"Chad has decided that as of tomorrow (Sunday) Chevron and Petronas must leave Chad because they have refused to pay their taxes," Deby said in a message broadcast on state-run radio.

But the article also points out that there has been negotiating issues between Chad and Big Oil. Accusing Chad of not allocating the money for the poor which was part of the deal.

So it may be more than just taking over the oil and gas for the country, it might be cause Big Oil is not living up to their side of the deal.

[M.Dancer]

So why not call him an Opportunist then?? And if that is the case, every leader in every country is one.

I don't know.....do opportunists fill the cells with political prisoners and close down media that are critical of them?

[GostHacked]

So why not call him an Opportunist then?? And if that is the case, every leader in every country is one.

I don't know.....do opportunists fill the cells with political prisoners and close down media that are critical of them?

The short answer? Yes indeed. But it does not matter to this thread, personally.

But I will throw this in, then get back to the oil in a later response.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6696699.stm

If any member of an US MSM outlet had a part in a coup against the President, that station would be shut right down as well. Most countries would do this. But it seemed a loophole in the law that allowed Chavez to take the station off the air.

RCTV will still be available on cable, but losing its public broadcast frequency will deprive it of most of its audience.

[M.Dancer]

If any member of an US MSM outlet had a part in a coup against the President, that station would be shut right down as well. Most countries would do this. But it seemed a loophole in the law that allowed Chavez to take the station off the air.

RCTV will still be available on cable, but losing its public broadcast frequency will deprive it of most of its audience.

Explain the part they played in the coup.......aside from airing stories critical of Chavez.....

[White Doors]

I paid $1.18/l this morning to fill my car, gas jumped up 10c or so last night. Reasons given were issues with a refinery in the US, the oil companies made in the region of $100B profit last year (WAG) Why am I paying so much more because they have issues at their refineries?

Just a side note.

You are paying more because the supply side is so tight. Refineries are at maximum capacity, our prices flucuate even when one goes down for maintenance. We haven't had a new refinery built in Canada in about 20 years, yet in that time our population has grown significantly.

SOLUTION !!!! Build another refinery?? Since one has not been built in 20 yeqrs, we have been at a peak production rate for 20 years. Making the overall amount of fuel per person much less. Our population and use of natural resouces has definatly increased dramaticly in 20 years.

Oh right, Big Oil does not want to build another refinery. If they would make more money from it, it would have been taken care of already.

They are buildign another one in Saint John NB.

but, never mind - you are correct - as you were.

[GostHacked]

Explain the part they played in the coup.......aside from airing stories critical of Chavez.....

Sorry for getting this off topic, and this is a good question which I am trying to find out about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...71-2703,00.html

In 2002, RCTV and other private channels broadcast opposition calls for protests to overthrow Chavez while giving scant coverage to his return to power amid protests by his supporters.

Andres Izarra, who now heads the state-financed channel Telesur, said he quit his job as a newsroom manager at RCTV because he was disgusted with the way “everything was censored” during the coup.

“The order was 'zero Chavismo on the screen.' Nothing related to Chavez, his allies, his congressmen, members of his party,” Izarra said. “When I hear the owners of RCTV talk about freedom of expression, it seems to me a great hypocrisy.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm

Radio Caracas Television, which is aligned with the opposition, supported a strike against Mr Chavez in 2003.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206....fTA&refer=home

Looks like he is threatening to take down another TV station. But his reasons for taking those stations off the air are the same reasons I really don't watch television anymore (no cable, just watch what I want online). So you can say 'killing freedom of speech', and 'killing the opposition' here. Other than this (for the moment) I am not sure how the stations played out in support of the attempted coup.

[M.Dancer]

Explain the part they played in the coup.......aside from airing stories critical of Chavez.....

Sorry for getting this off topic, and this is a good question which I am trying to find out about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...71-2703,00.html

In 2002, RCTV and other private channels broadcast opposition calls for protests to overthrow Chavez while giving scant coverage to his return to power amid protests by his supporters.

Andres Izarra, who now heads the state-financed channel Telesur, said he quit his job as a newsroom manager at RCTV because he was disgusted with the way “everything was censored” during the coup.

“The order was 'zero Chavismo on the screen.' Nothing related to Chavez, his allies, his congressmen, members of his party,” Izarra said. “When I hear the owners of RCTV talk about freedom of expression, it seems to me a great hypocrisy.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm

Radio Caracas Television, which is aligned with the opposition, supported a strike against Mr Chavez in 2003.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206....fTA&refer=home

Looks like he is threatening to take down another TV station. But his reasons for taking those stations off the air are the same reasons I really don't watch television anymore (no cable, just watch what I want online). So you can say 'killing freedom of speech', and 'killing the opposition' here. Other than this (for the moment) I am not sure how the stations played out in support of the attempted coup.

Pretty much what I read. They made editoiral decisions. The ran with the protests....

[sharkman]

The protests will probably result in no difference down there with Chavez's ego and paranoia preventing reason from carrying the day. At least the people can still get worked up about something, us Canadians are a pretty apathetic bunch.