Should this Liberal Candidate Resign

[stignasty]

shall we start bringing up the objectionable things that many of the CPCers have said?

one man a policy doesn't make.

I suppose its the *scary* *scary* *scary* Liberals now huh...

What's good for the goose is good for the gander Shakey.

If this had been a Conservative candidate you no doubt wouldn't have said anything.

You're both right. Supporters of each party are blind when it comes to the actions of their own party.

Does this guy look like a good candidate that I would support... well no... but that's not an indictment of the Liberal party either. It means that the riding association in Edmonton made a bad decision. There's plenty of crap to smear around if you want to look at the statements of every candidate from every party.

[stignasty]

I can think of places a lot worse than Israel in which to live. Certain native reserves in Canada, for example.

I know it's off topic, but I'm curious as to which reserves you're talking about.

[M.Dancer]

I can think of places a lot worse than Israel in which to live.

true....like Syria, Iran, Yemen.......

[scribblet]

I might not approve of everything Israel does, but I understand the context, and the difficult choices, and context is not something the Left is ever very good at. The Left doesn't care about context or common sense. The Left focuses on one ideologically based goal and doesn't want to be distracted by nuts and bolts and reality.

By the way, the second group: the stupids, a lot of them dislike Jews too, though not for the same reason as the first group. They dislike Jews because they associate Jews with Israel. They highly disapprove of Israel, and so they highly disapprove of anyone who doesn't. And that's most Jews. The Left inevitably ascribes moral failings to anyone who disagrees with their politics, and so Jews become doubly guilty. Thus the rise of anti-antisemitism among the Left.

Excellent post !!

Your second group usually like to post about zionism and berate Israel for defending itself, yet rarely do we see any condemnation of continual bombings and attacks on Israeli citizens.

I think the left doesn't view the conflict as a historical political and military, they seem to see it as a clash between the forces of good and evil. - with Israel being the evil oppresser. The Palestinians have mutated into a concept of innocents suffering at the hands of a powerful .....whatever. They seem to overlook the bloody and indiscriminate acts of hatred and violence by the Pals. against Israel. The majority of the middle east is dedicated to the extermination of Israel, maybe we should walk in their shoes for a while.

From what I've read, I don't see this candidate as being part of the second group, he is has not giving up, though. He doesn't deny the substance of the charges against him, he is making the argument that they are not relevant, he says he's matured.

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news...c9b&k=26648&p=2

His nomination is under review.

[Figleaf]

I can think of places a lot worse than Israel in which to live. Certain native reserves in Canada, for example.

I know it's off topic, but I'm curious as to which reserves you're talking about.

I can't remember their names, but some of the ones you see featured in the those 'Gee isn't this terrible' reports in the media. Was there one called David's Inlet?

[Figleaf]

Your second group usually like to post about zionism and berate Israel for defending itself, yet rarely do we see any condemnation of continual bombings and attacks on Israeli citizens.

That's very odd. I scarecely ever see anyone berating Israel fo defending itself, which after all would be quite unreasonable. On the other hand, I do see people complain from time to time about Israel grabbing land, killing civilians, and provoking violence with the Palestinians and its other neighbors. (Not that the neighbors or Palestinians are totally blameless themselves, mind you.)

I think the left doesn't view the conflict as a historical political and military, they seem to see it as a clash between the forces of good and evil. - with Israel being the evil oppresser. The Palestinians have mutated into a concept of innocents suffering at the hands of a powerful ...

Well, I can't speak for the Left, but what I see from the Right these days is either ignorance or wilful disregard of history (particularly the history of Israel being implanted in the region against the expressed interests of the inhabitants), a perspective that Israel can do no wrong, and frequent denials that Palestinians even exist (a sort of an intellectual genocide).

... violence by the Pals.

WHO?

[ScottSA]

I think the real question here is whether the man hates Jews or is simply stupid. Most of the anti-Israeli crowd fall into one group or another.

Excellent post. Don't mind sweal...he has to line item everything unto death.

[mikedavid00]

ARRESTED IN 1993

It also came to light that Chak was arrested in 1993 in connection with the firing of a shotgun into the door of a south-side nightclub.

He's human trash that shouldn't be in Canada. That''s all he is in my opinion.

What the hell he's doing in our policial system at all is beyond me. And the Liberals no less.

Man what's wrong here?

Ah yes, Canada declining into the 3rd world.

[Figleaf]

ARRESTED IN 1993

It also came to light that Chak was arrested in 1993 in connection with the firing of a shotgun into the door of a south-side nightclub.

He's human trash that shouldn't be in Canada. That''s all he is in my opinion.

What the hell he's doing in our policial system at all is beyond me. And the Liberals no less.

Man what's wrong here?

What's wrong is your bizarre hatred for someone for no good reason.

(And your focus on a criminal charge of which he was exonerated.)

[mikedavid00]

What's wrong is your bizarre hatred for someone for no good reason.

I don't hate him. I just don't feel that he should be in our poltical system or in the country. I disgregard him completely as a person.

(Kind of like he would do to you if you tried to get close to his sister).

[Figleaf]

What's wrong is your bizarre hatred for someone for no good reason.

I don't hate him. I just don't feel that he should be in our poltical system or in the country. I disgregard him completely as a person.

That sure sounds pretty hate-y. But what's important is not that you hate him, but that you have no good reason for it.

[Michael Bluth]

I don't hate him. I just don't feel that he should be in our poltical system or in the country. I disgregard him completely as a person.

That sure sounds pretty hate-y. But what's important is not that you hate him, but that you have no good reason for it.

MD00 you are being accused of being hate-y for disregarding someone by a poster whose signature is the people he ignores? That's all you need to think of when disgregarding Figleaf's post.

[mikedavid00]

I don't hate him. I just don't feel that he should be in our poltical system or in the country. I disgregard him completely as a person.

That sure sounds pretty hate-y. But what's important is not that you hate him, but that you have no good reason for it.

MD00 you are being accused of being hate-y for disregarding someone by a poster whose signature is the people he ignores? That's all you need to think of when disgregarding Figleaf's post.

I never said I disgregard the people in my sig. I just said that I disregard him and would like to see him leave Canada.

This forum is a form of entertainment in the end and it's only our opinions. In Canada we have no real say in how our money gets spent or what our leaders do. So opinions here should not be taken very seriously and with a grain of salt.

When Argus posts, he's right 100% of the time. Same with Betsy and others I forgot to mention. But who's listening? Is she going to present her viewpoint so we can maybe change our mind and vote on propositions that will make a difference?

No. We don't have the luxuries that they do in the US. We can't make descisions. So this forum ultimately is used for entertainment by us posters.

Now just imagine that there was a proposition that we would be required to vote on like "Prop 218: Should we move to a work permit based immigration system so as only to allow people to enter Canada if they have an employer sponsoring them in"

Then the discussions would take a whole different tone.

But most here don't think Canadians can think for themselves so we need our elected officials to do the thinking for us.

Look how that worked out.

[Figleaf]

... by a poster whose signature is the people he ignores?

Rankles you, does it? I'm just letting those people know not to post at me if they're hoping for a reply.

[jbg]

... Israel is, without a doubt, the worst country in the world, and the source of most of the world's problems that aren't caused by Bush.

I can think of places a lot worse than Israel in which to live. Certain native reserves in Canada, for example.

Some people don't get sarcasm. But based on UN activity, Israel must be the world's most serious problem.

[jbg]

He's human trash that shouldn't be in Canada. That''s all he is in my opinion.

What the hell he's doing in our policial system at all is beyond me. And the Liberals no less.

Man what's wrong here?

Ah yes, Canada declining into the 3rd world.

No, it's the entire West deciding that defending the West and Western values is racism.

[buffycat]

I am wondering whether anyone actually read the entire piece in the OP.

WRT the 'charges' - he was exhonerated - ie he DIDN'T do it.

So, is the REAL fuss here simply because he called a spade a spade?

Heavens!! A man who voices his opinion! Goodness me!

I can't get over the sidetracking of this thread.

Really - can anyone answer this: How come, when ANYONE says anything remotely critical (even if it is true) about Israel's policies that they are immediately branded 'anti-israel'??

BTW - still waiting for some kind of real definition of that!!

[jbg]

Really - can anyone answer this: How come, when ANYONE says anything remotely critical (even if it is true) about Israel's policies that they are immediately branded 'anti-israel'??

BTW - still waiting for some kind of real definition of that!!

What I want is the benefit of the doubt given to a peole that have to defend against repeated bloody, brutal, random, senseless attacks. How would you, as a Canadian, feel if a politically organized group of Paul Bernardos and Karla Homulka's were runnig aroiund with impunity and UN sanction and subsidy?

[Figleaf]

What I want is the benefit of the doubt given to a peole that have to defend against repeated bloody, brutal, random, senseless attacks.

I know it's going to p!ss you off to for me to say this, but I think what is happening is that Israel, through its intransigence and questionable practices, has exhausted the benefit of the doubt it had largely enjoyed in North America for several decades.

The requirement that Israel defend itself is seen as at least partly driven by the prolonged and illegal Occupation, some of the methods and tactics they have used to sustain it, and probably most importantly the disingenuous misinformation and propagandistic methods they have used to justify it.

(As an example of the latter, consider two insultingly dilatory arguments often tendered: biblical heritage and the supposed non-existence of Palestinians. These arguments are utter non-starters, but are frequently retendered, re-retendered, and re-re-re-ad nauseam by Israel's apologists.)

[southerncomfort]

That's very odd. I scarecely ever see anyone berating Israel fo defending itself, which after all would be quite unreasonable. On the other hand, I do see people complain from time to time about Israel grabbing land, killing civilians, and provoking violence with the Palestinians and its other neighbors. (Not that the neighbors or Palestinians are totally blameless themselves, mind you.)

Really cos its odd everytime Israel defends itself theres the usual screams of indignation and you know, its all disproportionate. There's not usually any balance with it and I think mostly its not constructive its mainly to demonize Israel.

[Figleaf]

That's very odd. I scarecely ever see anyone berating Israel fo defending itself, which after all would be quite unreasonable. On the other hand, I do see people complain from time to time about Israel grabbing land, killing civilians, and provoking violence with the Palestinians and its other neighbors. (Not that the neighbors or Palestinians are totally blameless themselves, mind you.)

Really cos its odd everytime Israel defends itself theres the usual screams of indignation and you know, its all disproportionate.

So, it is not the defence, but rather the disproportionality of it, that is the cause for complaint.

[jbg]

The requirement that Israel defend itself is seen as at least partly driven by the prolonged and illegal Occupation, some of the methods and tactics they have used to sustain it, and probably most importantly the disingenuous misinformation and propagandistic methods they have used to justify it.

Before 1967 the same cr@p was going on. Are you going to say you'd tolerate an army of Paul Bernardos, organized and financed by the UN, preying on people in your city/town/village?

[geoffrey]

So, it is not the defence, but rather the disproportionality of it, that is the cause for complaint.

As someone that strongly supports Israel's existence, yet is highly critical of their responses to violence, I'm going to have to somewhat agree with you here.

A bit of a caveat though. Israel can be disproportionate if it's morally justified. If Hamas kills 5 Israelis and Israel strikes back and kills 10,000 Hamas terrorists, I'm ok with that.

What I'm not ok with is Israel's ordinance choices (cluster bombs are unacceptable in civilian populated areas), seemingly random target choices at times, and their destruction of the infrastructure of Lebanon, when most Lebanese have little interest in fighting Israel (Hezbollah is about equivalent to the Green Party in Canada, hardly a voice for the nation). Destroying Lebanon's airport makes them poorer, which in turn opens the door for Hezbollah to provide the services the government can't afford, of course with their terrorist ideology attached.

Israel really needs to take a good long look at their defense choices and decisions and wonder why none of it works. I expect alot more measured and precise action from a developed country, Israel knows better and can do better.

[gc1765]

A bit of a caveat though. Israel can be disproportionate if it's morally justified. If Hamas kills 5 Israelis and Israel strikes back and kills 10,000 Hamas terrorists, I'm ok with that.

The problem I have is Hamas kills 5 Israelis and Israel strikes back and kills 10,000 Hamas...Hamas then spreads some propoganda and recruits more militans. These new militants kill 10 Israelis, so Israel strikes back and kills 20,000...and it continues. If they had done nothing, they would have lost 5 people. By fighting back, they lost 15. Israel should focus on preventing deaths from happening in the first place, they should not be killing purely out of revenge.

[Figleaf]

The requirement that Israel defend itself is seen as at least partly driven by the prolonged and illegal Occupation, some of the methods and tactics they have used to sustain it, and probably most importantly the disingenuous misinformation and propagandistic methods they have used to justify it.

Before 1967 the same cr@p was going on.

Yes, there was a Palestinian resistance movement before 1967 too. But after the PLO was recognized as the 'official bargaining agent' for the Palestinians there has been a viable route to peace which Israel has not seriously pursued.

Are you going to say you'd tolerate an army of Paul Bernardos, organized and financed by the UN, preying on people in your city/town/village?

No, but I wouldn't bomb and occupy the innocent residents of Bernardotown just to get at the Pauls.