The Feminizing of Western Civilization

[kuzadd]

men do the same dam thing,they preen like there is no tomorrow, look at themselves in the mirror, fuss over there hair, etc., men compete for women , for work, and you attribute that to woman only???

simply not credible.

Men do this but not as much as women.

One of the few occupations where women earn more than men is in fashion modelling.

Women and gay men are the overwhelming sufferers of eating disorders.

But I'm not certain that these facts are related to my main point.

3. To perceive or recognize as being different or distinct;

This is the meaning that I intended.

which, my friend is exactly what you are doing, you are discerning.

Which as i already said is not limited to women.

[August1991]

I started this thread based on a vague thought and the meandering OP hardly helped matters. The idea is not clear in mind.

Maybe if I give the (sort of) origin of my idea, this will clarify things.

At the time, two ideas ran through my mind: First, I recently had to spend some time in Westmount and I noticed that most of the giant white Escapade SUVs are driven by thin women in dark sunglasses. (Tom Wolfe referred to them as x-ray women.) These are rich soccer moms or grandmoms and their self-satisfied look seemed to announce, like Nancy Reagan: I got him and I got to keep him. I'm sure women the world over know the feeling.

Second, I was reminded recently of the McCarthy witchhunt and a comment from Arthur Miller (?) about being at a Washington dinner party - 12 seat style - in which the wives were egging on the principals to "go after that guy next". (The politicians were merely ambitious, not vindictive.)

Women are status concious in a way men are not. (Did you see "Legally Blonde"? Remember the comment about the Prada shoes at the water cooler?)

I had a chat on the phone with a friend in Europe about this and I realized that what I meant was that women are snobs in a way that men are not. And when I speak about the "feminizing of Western Civilization", I think I'm referring to how snobbery has risen in importance in the past several thousand years.

"Women are obsessed with status. And now Western Civilization has followed suit."

this is a hugely insulting assumption! Take a look at men and their status obsessions.

Kuzadd, I get your point and far be it from me to argue that men don't compete on status.

But it seems to me that men seek status because that's how they make themselves attractive to women. It is women who are the arbiters of men's status.

"It disturbs me that women spend so much on cosmetics and cosmetic surgery. It is a feature of Western society, and it is imitated elsewhere as "modern". In the West or East, excepting maybe gays, men don't feel the same compunction."

And that has nothing to do with men or marketing eh??

Men can be just as vain as women. But anyone with a passing knowledge of ancient history realizes that jewellry, cosmetics, combs were prized by women. You might get my attention if you argued that men compete for trophy wives.

Reading this, I think someone has women issues, and if your a woman, god help us!But I am a woman, and that'a alot of crap!

Kuzadd, I'm sensitive to your point. I'm trying to be objective.

Women seek a way to decide, to put someone or something on one side of a line and someone or something else on another. Women are cruel.

I wouldn't say women are responsible for that, I'd say that's just nature, it's natural to be competitive, before civilization if you aren't competitive, your toast. I think competition is vital for the progress of everything, look at communism without competition it all amounted to a big pile of monkey crap.

Men are just as guilty of that as women, who are you going to choose in a bar the fat girl who looks like she's been hit in the head with a shovel, or the attractive one? that's been happening since the dawn of time.

I don't think men are just as guilty as women in this.

To pick a famous example, Bill Clinton apparently slept with just about any woman. A woman who sleeps around gets the reputation of a "slut". And the definition of a slut is a woman with the morals of a man.

Men, still do not acknowledge inherent gifts that they bring to this world. Look, women started up being a feminist many years ago and is still vouching for equal this, that.

I wonder how quickly can a man denounce a feminine culture, and replace it with the likes of patriarchy. I am still of the believe that men have the power to damage and heal, to play and win, to continue with old ways, to dismantle structures and practices.

RB, I'm a feminist and I'm not shy to describe myself so. To me, feminism merely means that a civilized society does not arbitrarily determine rights solely by an individual's sex.

When you speak of patriarchy, I sense you are asking what are the rules of the game of life and who determines them? God knows is my facile answer.

More seriously, that's the subject of this thread: what happens when women become the rule makers in a society? IOW, who gets selected or wins when women's rules apply?

-----

I regret now having put two ideas in the OP of this thread. Perhaps I should start a new thread based on the 'false' OP.

Actually by the laws of the United states I have the right to be Judge, jury and executioner in my own home in regards to that highly hypothetical and unprobable situation. I am fully in my rights as a citizen of the United States to off anyone who comes into my home unwelcome with a firearm.

That may be true in the US. But in otherwise civilized societies, the constitution does not give individuals "the right to bear arms".

First, the basis of a civilized society is not the right of an individual to own a firearm. (The idea is absurd. Did civilized societies not exist before firearms were invented? Should any individual have access to a Tactical Nuclear Weapon?)

Second, I admire the US tremendously and the writers of the US Constitution did a tremendous job given the unknown possibilities of the future. IMHO, it is the US politicians of the mid-1800s who failed these writers by not solving the problem of slavery, and not rescinding the Second Amendment.

Edited October 7, 2007 by August1991

[BornAlbertan]

911, what's your emergency?

I have a home in**BANG**

you're dead bleedingheart!

August1991 obviously doesn't know the different between vigilanteism and self-defense!

[Catchme]

Nevertheless, the driving force behind this cognative dissonance of blamming women for the world's current ills is erroneous and nonsensical as a belief system.

Actually it is cultural Marxism which has its roots in 1920 Germany and can be traced to the (Frankfurt school) is to blamed for the western worlds current deterioration, and feminism is but of the corner stones of cultural Marxism.

That's just as erroneous as blamming women for societals ills.

Maybe we should reverse that so you can have a look at it.

Maybe then it is men's fault for masculinizing women?

After all, in order to build a country called Canada, or indeed the USA, a woman had to work side by side with her partner for them to servive. They knew they we equal to to their spouses, in a way perhaps women had not realized for a long time.

Then men had to hold their succcessive wars, again who stepped up in to former masculine roles but women, they had to. They had to keep those farms and ranches functioning to feed the war effort. They became active spies, nurses and even fighters. In later wars, the women were the ones in the factories making arms and equipment.

No, in fact oner could say this masculization of women is the men's fault, eh, making the decline in society morals as evidenced supposedly by the shooting in Virgina Tech etc, their fault as well.

People really need to stop listening to the nonsense poured out of the Trinty Broadcast Network, and its subsiduaries, and start thinking clearly and critically.

[Canadian Blue]

I've never felt particularly feminine, I've lived in one of the most conservative provinces on a farm, joined the military, and have yet to feel scared of losing my masculinity. This notion that someone is trying to feminize us all is pure BS, everyone wants to be afraid of some unknown enemy which is more than likely ficticious.

Actually it is cultural Marxism which has its roots in 1920 Germany and can be traced to the (Frankfurt school) is to blamed for the western worlds current deterioration, and feminism is but of the corner stones of cultural Marxism.

Yeah, its a wonder that so many corporations are posting record profits. Cultural marxism is just another BS term used by people to try to persecute others. I think people claimed that Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement was also a communist ploy.

[RB]

I've never felt particularly feminine, I've lived in one of the most conservative provinces on a farm, joined the military, and have yet to feel scared of losing my masculinity. This notion that someone is trying to feminize us all is pure BS, everyone wants to be afraid of some unknown enemy which is more than likely ficticious.

Well, if you participate in doing the dishes, cleaning the floors, nodding your head a lot, lots of cuddling and romance, looking after the kids, a break is at the spa, you discover some inaccuracy of every bathroom scale, exercising to look good, on the phone a lot, try for lots more hair, have fun shopping-well, buying "nice" clothes, look at the cover of Cosmo because the girl looks pretty and a reflection of youth - you want to try for the youth, watch girly movies, stay in Friday nights to watch girly movies, cry on cue, cry when you have a hard day at work, remember its matching socks and fresh underwear, think your female spouse should mow the lawn and handiwork, think you are doing enough around the house, ain’t gettin ANY unless you say I Love You, is divorce more often - and finally you check out your reflection in any shiny surface: mirrors, spoons, store windows, Howie Mandel's head.

I think you are participating in a feminine culture

[RB]

what happens when women become the rule makers in a society? IOW, who gets selected or wins when women's rules apply?

I won't hold my breath that women will become rulers of this world, they have to become manipulators of men first. Men are natural selectors to be on top.

However, I imagine if women were to gain power they would push their agendas into the forefront, and that we will have a peaceful, compassionate, economically poor society with cooperative living.

[Mad_Michael]

Women are obsessed with status. And now Western Civilization has followed suit.

History suggests that it is males that are far more status conscious than females. No comparison between the two. But I suppose that doesn't fit the script here...

A society of women is a society of the rules of protocol. Women discern. They decide the acceptable and the unacceptable. Women are primarily concerned with selection and choosing.

Such a society is static at best - it has no future. The competition to win is impossible since if everyone wins, the rules must change - otherwise how to have a winner? We can't all be beautiful, or thin. How clear can one's skin be? What was once "beautiful" becomes merely ordinary.

Women seek a way to decide, to put someone or something on one side of a line and someone or something else on another. Women are cruel.

It disturbs me that women spend so much on cosmetics and cosmetic surgery. It is a feature of Western society, and it is imitated elsewhere as "modern". In the West or East, excepting maybe gays, men don't feel the same compunction.

Women want to set a standard. They want to discern. Women want to be perfect. They want to compete.

A society based on such principles is not tenable.

What a load of sexist crap. Reads like a typical rant from the fever swamps of US rightwing blogs.

[Mad_Michael]

However, I imagine if women were to gain power they would push their agendas into the forefront, and that we will have a peaceful, compassionate, economically poor society with cooperative living.

Looks like August1991 doesn't have a monopoly on sexist crap.

[RB]

However, I imagine if women were to gain power they would push their agendas into the forefront, and that we will have a peaceful, compassionate, economically poor society with cooperative living.

Looks like August1991 doesn't have a monopoly on sexist crap.

Huh?

I think that the female are ruining the men.

Look, I think the men look hot in their pink shirts, and pink tie but also I see a next generation of the worst kind of men to surface. They are really shaken up these men. I mean I can say I am also shocked at the number of gays on the rise, because of this gay gene detail.

Man, I tell you the outlook for men are poor.

Poor in quality.

Poor in quantity.

[Drea]

I think that the female are ruining the men.

In what way?

Please, be specific -- I think we all need to "learn" how the "female" are ruining the "men".

BTW,

the word "female" goes with the word "male" -- female means all those in the animal kingdom that have a womb -- male means all those in the animal kingdom that have a penis.

the word "women" goes with the word "men" -- women are female humans, men are male humans.

Unless those were "men" squirrels and "women" squirrels I was watching this morning LOL

[RB]

I think that the female are ruining the men.

In what way?

Please, be specific -- I think we all need to "learn" how the "female" are ruining the "men".

Well.

Look at the list of female requirements of men:

1) You want your men to be sensitive

2) You wish your men to cry though the chick flicks

3) You want men to give, give, give

Look at their culture today for men

1) They are wimps

2) Embarrassed around women

3) They are sensitive

4) They cry

5) They are “pussy” beaten into proposal say of marriage, relationships – and they have to sport their money on the women’s glittering tangibles e.g. a huge diamond rock; this connotes public declaration, and professes and equates the amounts of love that is demanded

6) Men are mismatch for women currently. The girls and their power have now overpowered the men. A girl is ambitious, confident, and successful. On the other hand, the men are docile, shy, overweight, shrinking diffident who surrender to being ruin. Did I mention, women and their upheavals – they are irrational when ready to strike out at men. The men are silent; please let this thing go away…they want to be “strong” as defined by the women. Recall, the women culture is to stay into submissive relations, I think the men are experiencing such a relation.

There is a terrible backlash of feminism on men.

The truth

1) Men are terrified of women. What gives, what don’t give.

2) They are scared of being the sexist and misrepresented even in their careful choice words and actions

3) They constantly second-guess the women to avoid the offence

4) They suppress their masculinity with beauty products, preening and looking good routine

5) They present themselves as Mr Nice Guy for the fear of being rejected by women

6) This equality business has men turned into women. I am a promoter of the career first, the wardrobe, the cars, the number of kids etc next. I now realize it is an agenda that “no man” will get in the way of these accomplishments, yes? The sad thing is that men choose to take a passenger ride, and remain feeble while they facilitate the women’s quest.

Well, now she has control, she is an elitist and how do I say emasculated while she uses also her lips, tits, and hips – well it is the truth.

The second absolute truth.

Women simply don’t like wimps. What woman want a man who cries for what he wants?.

Today, the starved men come home and told to feed the cats. They are much more lonely and feel incapacitated. A struggle really, and the tables have truly turned from when unruly girls could be tamed by just "one good fuck." These women are sophisticates, educated, wise and beyond the reach of men.

Men, you know all a women really wants in her life is a real man.

It's strange, men are on the rise to declaring love for men instead of women

I also now wonder whether those bunny clubs, gentlment clubs are on the rise - there might be some strange co-relation in the workings of the women & the ruin men.

[guyser]

Look at the list of female requirements of men:

1) You want your men to be sensitive

2) You wish your men to cry though the chick flicks

3) You want men to give, give, give

Look at their culture today for men

1) They are wimps

2) Embarrassed around women

3) They are sensitive

blah

blah

blah...

Touche !

Lets go back to clubbing them over the head and dragging them into our cave.

[Drea]

Now RB

What is your definition of a real man?

How 'bout if you tell us "A Day in the Life of a Real Man" and "A Day in the Life of a Sorta-Man" -- just so we can compare them and be clear

[RB]

Now RB

What is your definition of a real man?

Well, here is what comes to mind for a real man.

My sense currently, is that folks need to start with some basis of higher accomplishments.

Sometimes I feel the distinction of a real man and a woman is the antagonism of being rich in the tough world. That women feel that the riches gain from labor of one man should be procured with the same not their heir. Like the reproduction of power the men practice is disdainful, resenting and immoral.

My assessment of this whole women wanting equality is that women want a basis for everyone to start, that everyone is given the same tools e.g. you take a spade into the garden and either start now to dig a bed, later, or be a lazy ass.

Symbolically, you can dig as fast as you wish, it also means that you are in good shape, not embarrass yourself, learn from experience to go faster, also you did not defraud yourself from this narcissistic recognition that someone else did this work for you, and you are exhilarated because this is the labor of your own hands so now you can watch over your bed so that you don’t lose sight of the usage of the bed.

And when the gods send the rains of sparkles down you are there to be a forerunner of the makings of a rich man. Also, everyone, real man and woman who digs can declare I did it.

I of course disagree with this imagery and digging theory.

We can take for granted though:

1) the lives we lead are mean; e.g. helpless women, gullible men

2) we also wish the patriarchy be kept as history in books, that we have walked this old tradition before, and it is now history to read about

I feel that real men do not need to be wimps, timid, beautiful or perfect to have intercourse with what is truth, wrong, progressive, intelligent and considering women their alliances.

Both men and women need to be free first. They need to be more helpful with each other.

I mean why do men have to apologize for the number of opportunity that knocks?

I mean we all need to recognize and accept that men have unearned privileges instead of lashing out, being mean and punishing as the ugly sisters in Cinderella. And, I can say that some women have truly fit perfectly into the role of ugly.

A man needs to be brave. I meant, look, if a man has the head start, then he is the first to experience chance. Give a man credit when he deserves it. He is brave, he is upright, can establish himself and finds a way to excellence, and he cuts though these turmoil issues quickly in a straight line from A to B. He really gives it a go.

He makes things to go his way, because he goes first. Now, then, respect him, encourage him. This honorable man, will also permit others to go the same route, have the same benefits, and everything is much easier. Sounds brave to me, and what a real man would do. This, I believe is what it means for women to access the way to excellence and access benefits of equality.

Give me some women who have stepped forward and paved the way for both men and women to follow, those are also real women.

Currently women want a man to escape his head start, his unearned privileges with nimbleness, branding him evil, pointing the accusing finger and all the while we rush to judge and the sentence “a kept man”. The fools’ men become. It is not a happy scenario.

It really dissemble hope for a good man, as women are content to him slip though the fingers. Well as expected, the man falls in place, flat on the ground. And you wonder where have all the good men gone. They are your doormats, to kick around, for you and your guests wipe your feet on and throw out at some inconvenience.

If I imply that women have this huge burden of payback and an extravagantly driven aim in their unconscious abuses of men, they wish to put men out of sight, so now it certainly clears the air that women have driven men to the opposite extreme of where we wish men to be.

In defence of a man, if a man did not create an abuse, he certainly cannot alter it.

I don’t need to be patronizing on the good the feminist movement have accomplish, they did good. But, also I wish to say that the movement fly into ideas, and by their very facts the men they care about now grow unreal and fantastic into a some surreal metaphor.

Hello! now men are no good, and they are certainly up to no good.

In scholarship I would more likely say that “smart” women flies for refuge in a “world of ideas”. Others take these ideas recruit, replenish and swayed into the pubic eye. Now that I think about it, if there is a fair legitimize outcome, the “others” gladly become your lovers – wow, I have stumbled on my own theory that perhaps this is a literal translation of how women in the feminist movement become dykes, or lesbians. And I cannot apologize if an oops is expected in that discovery.

Well, I also wish to say that each man has two pairs of eyes. He can permanently close them and blindly follow the directives of women. Or use his faculties to decide whether being in a feminine culture is crippling his own duties to his vows to be a man. A real man does not need to be told

1) I cannot be bought, I have my life

2) I have pride and wear it proudly

3) I am poor but I won’t accept basics from a man

4) I have my respect and my dignity in tack

A real man should feel rich in the presence of women wanting to be helpful to the women, each encouraging the other to strive for their best. Even a best orgasm.

A woman currently dismisses a man even though it alters both of their lives and they both live miserable. I don’t need to bring this news to women - that I told you love creeps up into unwanted and hidden places, well, more of the those are coming out of the closet.

[Catchme]

RB, it sounds like you are self-idenifying to what you are describing.

When you say this:

A real man should feel rich in the presence of women wanting to be helpful to the women, each encouraging the other to strive for their best. Even a best orgasm.

sans the "real" commentary, you are actually speaking feminism and equality talk.

Redux is, men have an advantage not because of their ingenuity, but because of their superior muscle, and at first the physical oppression of women, and other men, historically, and currently by entrenched sexist biases that are artificial in construct.

[August1991]

RB, I think I can speak for others on this forum when I say that your posts above are largely incoherent.

I'll add this though:

"So thus they lived in France of old,

When blood was young and hearts were bold,

And sword crossed sword for honor then,

When life was life and men were men."

And this little detail about the mating habits of elephant seals, an extreme case among mammals:

Individually marked male elephant seals, Mirounga angustirostris, observed on an island off central California participate in a social hierarchy resembling the peck order of domestic chickens. Individuals achieve status by fighting and maintain it by stereotyped threat displays. The higher the status of a male, the more readily he approaches and copulates with females. Four percent of the males inseminated 85 percent of the females.

Link

This means that about 1 in 20 bull elephant seals are alpha males and the other 19 are submissive wimps, largely ignored by the females.

You'll note however that it is the males who identify themselves to the females. The males do this by establishing a territory along the beach:

The females begin to arrive as the territories are establishing. Some arrive early in the midst of the fighting but most arrive after the territories are well established. Once an alpha male has his territory defined and females start arriving he will not leave the beach even to feed (it may be several months). At the height of the breeding season a strong alpha male may have a harem of a dozen or more females surrounding him and with whom he will mate. After giving birth, the females will remain on the beach with their pup for three to five weeks.

Link

The point of my OP was to wonder what happens when it is the females who create the signals to identify suitable mates.

---

Redux is, men have an advantage not because of their ingenuity, but because of their superior muscle, and at first the physical oppression of women, and other men, historically, and currently by entrenched sexist biases that are artificial in construct.

I think that it is fair to say that in the affairs of women and men, nothing is artificial.

[RB]

RB, I think I can speak for others on this forum when I say that your posts above are largely incoherent.

What! there must be some liberals around! I mean they are always so self-satisfied and plus they support incoherent messages.

[August1991]

In an attempt to explain myself better, and after an evening out in Montreal, I'm going to resurrect this thread and see what happens.

Anorexia is competition among women. A bigger car is competition among men.

A society (species) where male competition prevails is more likely to survive than a society where female competition prevails.

[ScottSA]

In an attempt to explain myself better, and after an evening out in Montreal, I'm going to resurrect this thread and see what happens.

Anorexia is competition among women. A bigger car is competition among men.

A society (species) where male competition prevails is more likely to survive than a society where female competition prevails.

Not all men are alpha males, but before the feminization of society, alpha males were the icon and the archetype of malehood. Then a bunch of pseudoacademic women from the most spoiled class of individuals in history made careers out of concocting myths about that archetype, and succeeded to a great degree in convincing men that they ought not be men, and ought to act like women instead. The sensitive 70s limp wristed creep that resulted is finally history, since women like to have him around but don't actually want to boink him, but men today are confused as to what precisely it is they are supposed to be. The solution is not to run around in the forest banging drums, or whatever that silliness was all about, it is to become men again and start taking pride in being a man.

[DarkAngel_]

ill just put this out... I'm kinda needing to speak out after reading this: i have a weapon in my house, i largely carry a blade, i love women (and yes beauty is associated with cruelty, just go into the forest for a week)

and hey, I'm no alpha male but thats just because i don't pick fights, i thing in our evolved state alpha means the man with the most influence, but these generalizations are destroying the ideology of individualism, and your research data and comparison just based on family of species is crude at best...

[Moxie]

To respond to the OP I shall use forums in my analogy. When reading or posting on forums as a Right winger I believe that the left have made us a society of weak, lame and lazy people. Male and female, the left idiology of no seperation of state and it's people are the root of this belief. Instead of becoming more productive citizens we've become a society of cry babies, when something goes wrong the first thing a left leaning person does is demand the "Government" pay for it, or fix it. Right wingers tend to their own affairs, we don't want government intervention into our private lives. Personally I find many (not all) of the left/socialist leaning males (on forums) weak and whiny as are many of the women who support Liberal/NDP idiology. They are oversensitive, easily offended, find the word black offensive even when describing the color of your dress. I find males who lean left to be personally unattractive even though I can't see them. Their words make me cringe most of the time, as a female I don't find weak males who spew forth tripe and snivel attractive.

One only has to log on to a left/left or NDP forum and the conversations that are taking place are amusing, their over sensitive egos are so fragile that calling a cat a "Black Cat" offends them lest it offend a black person who reads the word black.

As a right winger, I believe the police should not be investigating nonsense as racial slurs-hurt feelings and insults are not crimes. Racial issues seem more important than criminal issues with left leaning males and females. In short, this right winger believes in government running our country not our lives. The police are for law enforcement, laws that we as a society demand from our government not laws legislated to give special interest groups or minorities more power.

As for the male/female thang, LOL as a female I loath weak whiny men. I hate chick flicks, camping is the devils work. Do I strive for profection? Jesus no, nor do most males that are over the age of thirty. I'm equal to or greater than most males I've met, depending on the issue or subject at hand. If males are feeling immasculated perhaps they should turn off the TV, the computer and learn some skills to feel manly and please stop blaming the modern independant women in society for your failures fellas.

[DarkAngel_]

As for the male/female thang, LOL as a female I loath weak whiny men. I hate chick flicks, camping is the devils work. Do I strive for profection? Jesus no, nor do most males that are over the age of thirty. I'm equal to or greater than most males I've met, depending on the issue or subject at hand. If males are feeling immasculated perhaps they should turn off the TV, the computer and learn some skills to feel manly and please stop blaming the modern independant women in society for your failures fellas.

and thats when they invented sex change...lol

well i agree it has little to nothing to do with gender, but oh how tasty, you say i can be no better that anyone else genrally? at least to spicific issues?? the only time feeling immasculated is even defined is by either the working class, as in sexist issues. or with actual sexuality, i dont see this as an issue, just a very funny subject of intrest. you say all women are equal to men and all men equal to women? i think the arrow hit the mark when you said, "depending on the issue or subject at hand." dumb people come in all shapes, sizes, and genders. immasculation is just a degridation of triditional manhood, my delcoration alone! and respect for the fellow man as well as being gentlemen-like is more than enough to make me a man...

[ScottSA]

As for the male/female thang, LOL as a female I loath weak whiny men. I hate chick flicks, camping is the devils work. Do I strive for profection? Jesus no, nor do most males that are over the age of thirty. I'm equal to or greater than most males I've met, depending on the issue or subject at hand. If males are feeling immasculated perhaps they should turn off the TV, the computer and learn some skills to feel manly and please stop blaming the modern independant women in society for your failures fellas.

I think the problem is larger than that. It begins in school, at a very early age these days. Take for example the "zero tolerance" for violence, a policy I suspect that actually causes more violence than it stops, and this is why: The schoolyard fight is a seminal development in malehood. That doesn't mean, for the lesser feminized males hereabouts, that I'm encouraging boys to battle and bludgeon each other on the playground, but rather that we return to an older paradigm involving male honor and dignity. I'm not old enough to remember the good old days, but I've read enough to know that fights per se were sometimes ignored, and sometimes stopped, but encouraged to continue with boxing gloves. Even when I was in grade school in the 60s and high school in the 70s, proscriptions against schoolyard fighting were often honored only in the breech.

The lessons learned, not only from participating in them, but watching them as well, often stay with boys well into manhood and offer a formative influence that simply can't be found elsewhere. Those lessons range from the observation that life isn't always fair to the observation that bullies are generally disliked, and provide a grounding in reality; that real physical consequences can happen to people. It makes life more real and immediate and less abstract.

For my part, I remember telling someone to tell the school jock...not THE school jock, but one of them a bit bigger than me and one with a reputation for toughness...that I thought he was a "fag." It was a bit of false bravado that somehow ended up with me facing him at recess, getting tumbled around a bit, accidently kicking him in the eye, producing a huge shiner, and ripping my shirt. Dragged before a great hairy ex-football player named Coach Coleman, we both got a suspension, but Coach told my parents later that he'd never seen me stand taller. That stayed with me...well...obviously till now. And it set the stage for what might well be the proudest moment of my life...one of those rare moments in life when you know you're on the side of the angels. That was highschool, grade 10 to be exact, when the school bully...the real school bully, in 12th grade and everything...called my freind Tom Aronsohn a "kike," and I stupidly challenged him to a fight right then and there in the hallway. He didn't know what to say...he knew he was going to win, but he knew he was wrong as well. Fortunately as I walked toward him mustering my very best sucker punch as the one and only lick I was likely to get in, the school VP walked around the corner and we all ahemed and ahaed and then dispersed. He wasn't scared of me, but he never called Tom a kike again. It stayed with me, but I bet it stayed with him too.

Nowadays boys are deprived of those lessons, and are encouraged to tattle instead, something certain posters here have apparently taken to heart in adult life. It's too bad.

[jazzer]

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Edited October 7, 2007 by jazzer