Why We Have to Fight

[Canadian Blue]

  Quote

What you consider "freedom", they consider decadence. What you consider "rights", like gay marriage and equal opportunity for women, they consider abhorrent and against the law of God. And they don't want peace, because peace amounts to the status quo. They want war, because only through war can they bring back the Caliphate. And ironically, the folks who think like you are the very first ones they'll line up against the wall. They don't want "compromise"; how can mere humans compromise with the willl of God? God doesn't compromise, because he's right.

I realize that Maxim magazine calls Islamic terrorists freedom haters, but I haven't heard anyone except maybe Bush and the far right make the same remarks. If you think that people hate the west because of our freedom or rights then I suggest you read up on the history of the middle east for the past 75 years. As much as many of the far right of the spectrum would like to blame gays and Hollywood for 9/11, it just isn't so. This isn't really surprising since people always appeal to basic fears in order to wage war.

I highly doubt we'll see the middle east over taking any western nation in a military conflict.

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He attacked persia for the same reason Rome attacked Carthage. Read some history.

Care to enlighten us...

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It's impossible for some people to get their heads around the idea that other people don't share their paradigms. To you, the desire for "peace" is self-evident. It's unthinklable to you, as evidenced by your attitude toward Virtu and male aggression, that others hold some things higher than peace. Islam, and in particular Wahobbism holds MOST things higher than peace. Talk of "peace" has a certain amount of currency for UN talkshops and CAIR/CAIR-Can agitprop, but outside of that radical Islam has very little utility for peace.

You mean using diplomacy.

  Quote

It's the same for the appeaser faction prior to WW II. They assumed, from Chamberlain to Baldwin, that Hitler really wanted peace, and that if they redressed the alleged problems issuing from Versailles, that he would join the "community of nations" and be a productive member. So while they dreamed of disarmament treaties and angled for friendship with Hitler, Hitler rearmed with abandon. But what the appeaser faction didn't understand, and some of them never did understand, even after the war, is that Hitler wasn't "insane", or so devilish that he just lied for the sake of it, but that he lived in an entirely different paradigm; a paradigm where peace was at best incidental and at worst counterproductive to the aryan superman ideal he sought, built by hardship and struggle. Hitler WANTED war; if not with the west, at least with the east. His highest point of consideration was not the "peace" of Chamberlain, it was leibenstrau for the German volk. He built his armed forces for the expressed intention of attacking Russia; he outlined that as early as the 1920s.

Nazi Germany is different from a terrorist group operating out of a cave. I haven't seen Islamic nation's annexing any countries lately.

  Quote

But, like your view of Islam, no one believed Hitler even though he told them what he was going to do. It just didn't fit with their world view, so they threw it out and went searching for other reasons which fit their way of thinking. Like you and the left in a constant search for reasons that make sense to you for the attack by Islam..."imperialism, poverty, ignorance" and so on...notwithstanding the fact that bin Laden and everyone else on the side of Islam has been looking you in the eye for 5 or 6 years, telling you precisely why they want to kill you.

I doubt that they want to kill us because of our democratic process.

  Quote

They are not living in the same philosophical world as you are. Trying to understand radical Islam by applying your reason to it won't work. It's not Bush, or Israel or imperialism or Haliburton or poverty or ignorance. It's Islam.

They hate us because of our democracy.

[scribblet]

I guess its easy to overlook the facts that most of the lands that are now Muslim were first Christian. All the ME and the north of Africa were Christian before they were conquered by Arab armies which also attacked and invaded Europe, not the other way around. They conquered most of Spain in the 8th cent. and were stopped by the French (when they had balls) in Tours. It took Spain almost 800 years to free itself. The Arabs continued attempting to conquer Europe - parts of Italy fell under their power, the South, Sicily, etc.. In the Battle of Lepanto in the 16 cent. the Ottoman Empire was beaten by Spain, the Papal states and several Italian cities. Again the Turk laid siege to Vienna in 1683.

They conquered the Balkans - and it took Greece until the late 19th century to free itself and Russia was under the Turkish yoke for centuries.

The power holders in the Radical Islamic world do not exist in a vacuum, they flourish in a system which teaches children that mass murder is the will of God as they they control the minds of people who celebrate the deaths of women and children.

The terrorists of 9/11 and their helpers can't be written off on bogus political and politically correct grounds, they knew what they were doing and what they want. They and the rest of their radical cohorts are reactionary, fundamentalist, and repressive. To not recognize what we are up against and the threat to world peace these radical represent is simply being in denial. War or no Iraq war, the radicals would still be a problem, and where, long before Bush was President.

And don't forget Arab countries with oil are making killing because of the Iraq war, it costs them what, 2 to 4 dollars a barrel to produce what they sell for for $60.00 - and AQ has some shares in that too.

What we need to do is to continue trying to integrate the moderate muslims into the global community, who then might be able to help combat the radical extremes of their own religion.

[Argus]

  Black Dog said:

I hate to repeat myself, but it's always interesting to me that the ends of the different fundamentalists are never questioned: only the means. That tells me the main difference between Christian fundamentalists and their Islamic bretheren is only the degree to which they are willing to use violence.

You make it sound like a minor difference. It is not. Further, you forget that Christian fundamentalists are in power nowhere, while the Islamic variety are in power in several places and close to power in others.

  Quote

(Of course, bear in mind that the nominally Christian west has held the monoply on violence for the better part seven centuries,

Drivel. There has been massive violence through the world. Perhaps you simply aren't educated enough to know anything about the history of non-Christian areas and the violence which has transpired there over the eons and centuries.

[Argus]

  Vancouver King said:

  Argus said:

  ScottSA said:

You're not very smart, are you?

Neither of them are. You're just realizing this now? Why are you wasting your time?

And your personal slurs and attacks constitute wisdom do they? For someone with profound mental issues you seem a tad judgemental.

I can recognize nut jobs when I see them.

[Argus]

  Canadian Blue said:

Considering ScottSA seems to have problems with his masculinity, I don't really feel the sting from his insults.

I think the problem he has is that he appears to be taking people like you seriously.

If I want to have a serious political discussions I don't have it with people who drool on their keyboards.

[Remiel]

  Argus said:

I can recognize nut jobs when I see them.

Then go find a mirror and look into it. I guarantee you'll see one.

[ScottSA]

CB: Once again your complete failure to even try to understand what I'm saying, and your obvious need to nitpick instead are the reasons I suggested we go our seperate ways. "Diplomacy" doesn't work in a back alley with a mugger, if the mugger wants your money more than your goodwill. Radical Islam doesn't want peace. Radical Islam wants a global Caliphate. It says so all the time. Why do you have such a hard time hearing that?

Ask yourself this: if Israel evaporated tomorrow, do you think there would be no more killings and riotings over cartoons of Mohammed? Do you think CAIR and CAIR-Can would stop agitating for Sharia in the west? Do you think madrassas the world over would stop teaching that Jews are pigs? Do you think we'd all join hands and sing Kumbaya?

Let me remind you that long before Iraq, and long before Afghanistan, radical Islam was blowing the crap out of US embassies across the world.

[Argus]

  Remiel said:

  Argus said:

I can recognize nut jobs when I see them.

Then go find a mirror and look into it. I guarantee you'll see one.

Thus exposed is the intellectual brilliance of the Left on this site. Oh so witty and original, Remiel! Can I write that down for future ages to use?

[scribblet]

"I think a lot of Canadians are blinded by anti-Americanism to the extent that they can see no other threat to Canada or the world. The war on terror to them is a myth; large numbers of them simply do not believe that 9/11 was an Islamist attack. And too many Canadians exist in a dream world where the enemy lives to the south of us" - Jack Granatstein.

Dreamworld is right LOL

[Canadian Blue]

  Quote

CB: Once again your complete failure to even try to understand what I'm saying, and your obvious need to nitpick instead are the reasons I suggested we go our seperate ways. "Diplomacy" doesn't work in a back alley with a mugger, if the mugger wants your money more than your goodwill. Radical Islam doesn't want peace. Radical Islam wants a global Caliphate. It says so all the time. Why do you have such a hard time hearing that?

Your suggesting what exactly, once an actual soveriegn nation attacks us then I'll support going to war.

Are you really worried about a Global Caliphate, if you think that's the only issue that the middle east is really angry about I suggest you read up on history in that region for the past 75 years.

  Quote

Ask yourself this: if Israel evaporated tomorrow, do you think there would be no more killings and riotings over cartoons of Mohammed? Do you think CAIR and CAIR-Can would stop agitating for Sharia in the west? Do you think madrassas the world over would stop teaching that Jews are pigs? Do you think we'd all join hands and sing Kumbaya?

I recognize that the issue is much more complex than believing that the terrorists hate us because we love "freedom".

  Quote

Let me remind you that long before Iraq, and long before Afghanistan, radical Islam was blowing the crap out of US embassies across the world.

The IRA committed many terrorist attacks as well. In fact, the worst terrorist attack before 9/11 was committed by a white American.

[Who's Doing What?]

  Argus said:

  Remiel said:

  Argus said:

I can recognize nut jobs when I see them.

Then go find a mirror and look into it. I guarantee you'll see one.

Thus exposed is the intellectual brilliance of the Left on this site. Oh so witty and original, Remiel! Can I write that down for future ages to use?

Hahaha

I always have to laugh when you get self-righteous.

You refer to some people as "nut jobs" and then mock a similar comment, when it's made in your direction.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

[Argus]

  Who said:

  Argus said:

  Remiel said:

  Argus said:

I can recognize nut jobs when I see them.

Then go find a mirror and look into it. I guarantee you'll see one.

Thus exposed is the intellectual brilliance of the Left on this site. Oh so witty and original, Remiel! Can I write that down for future ages to use?

Hahaha

I always have to laugh when you get self-righteous.

You refer to some people as "nut jobs" and then mock a similar comment, when it's made in your direction.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

Another towering intellectual of the Left.

Whatever happened to left wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting left wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

[Remiel]

  Argus said:

Thus exposed is the intellectual brilliance of the Left on this site. Oh so witty and original, Remiel! Can I write that down for future ages to use?

You are more deluded than I thought if you think anything you " contribute " to this board is saturated by wit and originality. I knew after I left that little comment that you would try to make some kind of pathetic comeback by attacking my originality, and gee whiz, that's exactly what you did!

  Argus said:

Another towering intellectual of the Left.

Whatever happened to left wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting left wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

There are a number of decent Right wing posters on these boards. You're not one of them. It's about time you got over yourself, but I already know that isn't going to happen. You're just that sad and predictable.

[guyser]

Another towering intellectual of the Right.

Whatever happened to right wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting right wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

[Who's Doing What?]

  Argus said:

  Who said:

  Argus said:

  Remiel said:

  Argus said:

I can recognize nut jobs when I see them.

Then go find a mirror and look into it. I guarantee you'll see one.

Thus exposed is the intellectual brilliance of the Left on this site. Oh so witty and original, Remiel! Can I write that down for future ages to use?

Hahaha

I always have to laugh when you get self-righteous.

You refer to some people as "nut jobs" and then mock a similar comment, when it's made in your direction.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot.

Another towering intellectual of the Left.

Whatever happened to left wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting left wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

LMFAO

Thank you for proving my point Argus.

[Canadian Blue]

  Quote

Another towering intellectual of the Left.

Whatever happened to left wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting left wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

The same can be said equally of some the right wing members of this board. I don't think I have to go any further than this very topic to pove that point. Something about how left wingers hate our society because we don't support a war with Islam.

[ScottSA]

  Canadian Blue said:

  Quote

Another towering intellectual of the Left.

Whatever happened to left wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting left wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

The same can be said equally of some the right wing members of this board. I don't think I have to go any further than this very topic to pove that point. Something about how left wingers hate our society because we don't support a war with Islam.

No, it's not something about how left wingers hate our society because you don't support a war with Islam, and the fact that you even trot out that strawman is a case in point of what Argus is saying. The fact that you hate our society is evident from your slavish addition to attacking our society in each and every instance. If some one points out that Iran kidnapped British sailors, you immediately start defending Iran and condemning Britain. If someone points out that 911 and about 100 murders per day are done by Muslims, you immediately point to the crusades or some abortion bomber to show that Christians are "just as bad". In every instance, you and the lefties on this and other boards equivocate and squirm and do everything you can think of to try to A ) show that Islam is innocent, B ) that Islam is not innocent, but it's our fault anyway, or C ) that Islam is not innocent, and in the rare cases that you can't pin the blame on us, that somehow because of something we did 800 years ago we're just as bad.

[Canadian Blue]

  Quote

No, it's not something about how left wingers hate our society because you don't support a war with Islam, and the fact that you even trot out that strawman is a case in point of what Argus is saying.

So what is it...

  Quote

The fact that you hate our society is evident from your slavish addition to attacking our society in each and every instance. If some one points out that Iran kidnapped British sailors, you immediately start defending Iran and condemning Britain. If someone points out that 911 and about 100 murders per day are done by Muslims, you immediately point to the crusades or some abortion bomber to show that Christians are "just as bad".

We point out the fact that we shouldn't adopt a holier than thou approach due to the fact we in the west have a violent history as well. It was only 50 years ago that African American's in the south were considered lower than whites. We also point out that the west will often support dictators who have committed the same atrocities, look no farther than the Shah or Pinochet. Even Saddam Hussein was once supported by western government's.

We might also think that war isn't always the solution...

  Quote

In every instance, you and the lefties on this and other boards equivocate and squirm and do everything you can think of to try to A ) show that Islam is innocent, B ) that Islam is not innocent, but it's our fault anyway, or C ) that Islam is not innocent

We squirm at the thought that some people try to put all 21% of the world in with the terrorists. To many of us, left and right, that's the precursor to bigotry and hatred. We also disagree with the method's when dealing with terrorism, I for one do not think the sole reason is the Global Caliphate. I see the issue as a complex one.

  Quote

and in the rare cases that you can't pin the blame on us, that somehow because of something we did 800 years ago we're just as bad.

Whites, and the west have often been involved in massacres, some of them happening in the 20th century.

I don't look at any issue as black and white, since black and white doesn't exist.

[bush_cheney2004]

  Canadian Blue said:

...In fact, the worst terrorist attack before 9/11 was committed by a white American.

This is patently false, unless you mean President Harry Truman. Canada helped with that one!

[Canadian Blue]

The Oklahoma City bombing was the worst terrorist attack within America's borders before 9/11. It was also committed by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

[Argus]

  Canadian Blue said:

  Quote

Another towering intellectual of the Left.

Whatever happened to left wingers who had a grasp on politics and reality and could put a case here with a degree of intelligence and dignity? I can think of maybe 2 out of about ten regularly posting left wingers here who don't come across as shrill emotional fools wrapped in delusion and ignorance.

The same can be said equally of some the right wing members of this board. I don't think I have to go any further than this very topic to pove that point. Something about how left wingers hate our society because we don't support a war with Islam.

More like the left wingers hate our society so much they prefer and sympathize with brutal thugocracies.

There is maybe one over the top right winger here, but there are easily ten loony-toon left wingers like polynewbie, whos doing what, catchme, remiel, and Saturn, with more popping up all the time. I dunno, it's like someone in a psychiatric hospital wrote this web site's address on a washroom wall or something.

[ScottSA]

  Canadian Blue said:

I don't look at any issue as black and white, since black and white doesn't exist.

But sometimes the solution to problems is. Sometimes the choice is very stark indeed, like when it's kill or be killed, either them or you. Sometimes there isn't time to cogitate. People who can't be decisive lose.

[Canadian Blue]

  Quote

But sometimes the solution to problems is. Sometimes the choice is very stark indeed, like when it's kill or be killed, either them or you. Sometimes there isn't time to cogitate. People who can't be decisive lose.

By who, and with that kind of attitude it would simply lead to bigotry back home. I'm not worried about the "Caliphate" coming back to power anytime soon. I'd like to see any Islamic country attempt an invasion of a western country.

I think in the end even if we kill at will, the result will simply mean the moderates will move closer to extremism, and if anything terrorism will flourish more so.

[bush_cheney2004]

  Canadian Blue said:

The Oklahoma City bombing was the worst terrorist attack within America's borders before 9/11. It was also committed by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

That's much better compared to your original assertion, still....

Prior to 9-11, the destruction of Pan Am Flight 103 was the deadliest act of terror against a US civilian target, claiming 189. The deadliest act of terror against a US target had been the 1983 bombing in Beirut, claiming 241 US servicemen (and 58 French).

[ScottSA]

  Canadian Blue said:

  Quote

But sometimes the solution to problems is. Sometimes the choice is very stark indeed, like when it's kill or be killed, either them or you. Sometimes there isn't time to cogitate. People who can't be decisive lose.

By who, and with that kind of attitude it would simply lead to bigotry back home. I'm not worried about the "Caliphate" coming back to power anytime soon. I'd like to see any Islamic country attempt an invasion of a western country.

I think in the end even if we kill at will, the result will simply mean the moderates will move closer to extremism, and if anything terrorism will flourish more so.

Because of useful fools like you, Islamic countries don't have to invade. You apologias and fixations of "bigotry" and so on is all CAIR and like-minded organizations need to do it from within.