Stockwell Day

[Martin Chriton]

The boxes were labeled to be moved out of the office. Someone labeled them. If he wasn't smart enough to know how to use a map or a telephone he should've asked for help from someone.

Is it really that unbelievable to think that if you found a box in your own office that it might belong to you or someone you work with?

Exactly. They could belong to someone in my office, so what I'd do is look to where they were to be delivered. No need to open the box. If I couldn't work a map, I'd ask someone else to teach me.

I've done this many times when people misplace stuff around in my office. Never once have I had the need to go through boxes to find out where to deliver them.

The fact is, even if as you say, Holland isn't a smart person, why did he have to go through the whole entire box? Did he have to go through the entire boxes contents to find out where they were to be delivered?

Your whole argue is ridiculous. Even if the markings on the box weren't enough to tell him that boxes were to be moved from the OLO to the PMO, the first page or two in the box would've.

If you think it's the Conservatives fault because they left the boxes behind, just say that. But don't say that Holland didn't know they were the Conservatives. Anyone that has worked in an office building and gone through a move like this knows that argument is erroneous.

[Canuck E Stan]

A cryptic yellow label was on the box, the box that had been abandoned for several years.

Abandoned?.......in a room.......for several years?.........er, how long has Holland occupied that room?

Did he move in before they moved out?

It wasn't abandoned,Holland did like a magician, and made it disappear when he saw it.

But it was long enough for sticky fingers Holland to know who occupied the room before him.

[Figleaf]

A cryptic yellow label was on the box, the box that had been abandoned for several years.

Abandoned?.......in a room.......for several years?.........er, how long has Holland occupied that room?

Did he move in before they moved out?

The building was taken over by the Liberals when they fell into opposition. The tories were the previous occupants. the elections was in 2004, three years ago.

[Canuck E Stan]

The building was taken over by the Liberals when they fell into opposition. The tories were the previous occupants. the elections was in 2004, three years ago.

Of course how stupid of me,

I thought the Liberals were in power in 2004,

and the Conservatives got in just last January in the year 2006.

I guess it just seemed like last year.

2006

2004

Can you say I'm an idiot?

[Figleaf]

The boxes were labeled to be moved out of the office. Someone labeled them. If he wasn't smart enough to know how to use a map or a telephone he should've asked for help from someone.

Is it really that unbelievable to think that if you found a box in your own office that it might belong to you or someone you work with?

Exactly. They could belong to someone in my office, so what I'd do is look to where they were to be delivered. No need to open the box. If I couldn't work a map, I'd ask someone else to teach me.

I've done this many times when people misplace stuff around in my office. Never once have I had the need to go through boxes to find out where to deliver them.

The fact is, even if as you say, Holland isn't a smart person, why did he have to go through the whole entire box? Did he have to go through the entire boxes contents to find out where they were to be delivered?

Your whole argue is ridiculous. Even if the markings on the box weren't enough to tell him that boxes were to be moved from the OLO to the PMO, the first page or two in the box would've.

If you think it's the Conservatives fault because they left the boxes behind, just say that. But don't say that Holland didn't know they were the Conservatives. Anyone that has worked in an office building and gone through a move like this knows that argument is erroneous.

Let's review the facts, shall we?

1. The the box was left behind three years ago. The tories never called asking for it; they never sent the movers back for it. The tories had abandoned it.

2. The label on the box was four years old too, and was filled in with a mover's code. It says nothing that Holland can be expected to take notice of. Boxes that the Liberals brought in with them would have the same kind of label. Opening the box was something anyone might do.

3. EVEN IF the box was labelled PROPERTY OF STOCKWELL DAY , it wouldn't have been wrong to open it.

4. The box contained a fax that implies that a benefit was paid to MP Hart to quit his seat in order to let Stockwell Day run there. This is contrary to one or more of the provisions of the Criminal Code under Corruption and Disobedience (ss.119-130, see esp. ss.119, 121, 124).

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-...al=50&length=50

5. Any sane comparison of the gravity of the 'offense' in #3 with the offense in #4 cannot help but conclude that running off at the mouth about #3 while ignoring #4 is ludicrous, bizarre, and explicable only in terms that are unflattering.

[Canuck E Stan]

Let's review the facts, shall we?

1. The the box was left behind three years ago. The tories never called asking for it; they never sent the movers back for it. The tories had abandoned it.

2. The label on the box was four years old too, and was filled in with a mover's code. It says nothing that Holland can be expected to take notice of. Boxes that the Liberals brought in with them would have the same kind of label. Opening the box was something anyone might do.

Let's know the facts first.

Can you still say I'm an idiot?

[Figleaf]

The building was taken over by the Liberals when they fell into opposition. The tories were the previous occupants. the elections was in 2004, three years ago.

Of course how stupid of me,

I thought the Liberals were in power in 2004,

and the Conservatives got in just last January in the year 2006.

I guess it just seemed like last year.

2006

2004

Can you say I'm an idiot?

Holy crap! I'm an idiot.

It just seems like forever, I guess.

Alright, so the box was abandoned for just over a year. That weakens my argument slightly, but I don't think it changes anything really.

[Michael Bluth]

1. The the box was left behind three years ago. The tories never called asking for it; they never sent the movers back for it. The tories had abandoned it.

Do explain that three year thing. The Conservatives moved out of the OLO in February of 2006. Holland 'found' the box in March of 2007. Seems like a year to me....

2. The label on the box was four years old too, and was filled in with a mover's code. It says nothing that Holland can be expected to take notice of. Boxes that the Liberals brought in with them would have the same kind of label. Opening the box was something anyone might do.

Something anyone any liberal might do.

3. EVEN IF the box was labelled PROPERTY OF STOCKWELL DAY , it wouldn't have been wrong to open it.

Really? What if it had been marked PROPERTY OF MARK HOLLAND and had been opened by Stockwell Day?

My goodness what an incredibly lacking moral compass you have.

[geoffrey]

You don't go through other people's documents. You look at a couple pages for some ID type things, and then call them up and let them know. That's the moral decent human thing to do.

What Holland did proves that he's the lowest of the low when it comes to politicans, something us Albertans have known for awhile being on the end of his vicious rants designed to divide Canada. He's a mouthpeice with very little upstairs to back it up.

Dion really needs to get this guy under control before he does more damage to the Liberals.

[Figleaf]

Really? What if it had been marked PROPERTY OF MARK HOLLAND and had been opened by Stockwell Day?

Same answer. A note simply identifying possession would not be a claim to privacy, especially when the box was left unclaimed for over a year.

My goodness what an incredibly lacking moral compass you have.

Coming from someone who's okay with apparent corrupt breaches of the criminal code, and ministers leading the police who are investigating them, that's a comment I won't take to heart.

[Canuck E Stan]

Holy crap! I'm an idiot.

It just seems like forever, I guess.

Alright, so the box was abandoned for just over a year. That weakens my argument slightly, but I don't think it changes anything really.

3. EVEN IF the box was labelled PROPERTY OF STOCKWELL DAY , it wouldn't have been wrong to open it.

why would it not have been wrong?

Your arguement get weakened more than slightly.

Holland held on to these boxes knowing full well who owned it for the past year because I'm sure he knew who occupied the space before him.

The information he read inside the boxes was an invasion of privacy that he refused to acknowledge.

Why didn't he come out with this big revelation of what he found back then? I can't believe he just opened the boxes just recently.

I would guess he was hoping to use it in the next up coming election.When the polls showed the Liberals faultering he hoped this would raise the numbers.

His big mistake was carting the boxes around for everyone to see,forgetting that the Yellow House of Commons delivery notice was in full view.

If the boxes were stuck in the office for three years,that may well have played differently.

Holland has made an ass of himself and his party,and if the RCMP don't decide to investigate the "findings" by Holland I'm afraid Holland will look bad,especially if he is the one charged with unethical conduct.

With the information in his hands why hasn't he returned the boxes yet?

[Figleaf]

why would it not have been wrong?

Please qv my comment on possession vs. privacy in the post above.

Holland held on to these boxes knowing full well who owned it for the past year because I'm sure he knew who occupied the space before him.

If he did that, it might improve your argument. So tell me how you would know that? Why didn't the tories ask for the box or send the movers back?

The information he read inside the boxes was an invasion of privacy that he refused to acknowledge.

How could he know the stuff in the box was supposed to be private?

I can't believe he just opened the boxes just recently.

But what the heck do you know about it?

His big mistake was carting the boxes around for everyone to see,forgetting that the Yellow House of Commons delivery notice was in full view.

Did he ever say he found the documents IN the boxes??

[ScottSA]

Did he ever say he found the documents IN the boxes??

Right. It's a new way of packing that the the Hill has discovered: paste everything to the outside of the moving boxes, leaving plenty of room inside for documents to breathe, and minimising the thickness of cardboard necessary for box construction. A little dicey in windstorms sometimes, but much more efficient because...well...just because. It's the result of a $1.5 million NDP study on how to save forests by cutting back on cardboard and save the environment by cutting back on the number of horse hooves attached to flatulent horse bottoms and consequent green house gas emmissions.

[Canuck E Stan]

I guess for some it's Finders Keepers, for others who were taught about stealing and returning thing to their rightful owners and ethics and just doing the right thing, Holland will be an example of all the things a person shouldn't do.

[scribblet]

I guess for some it's Finders Keepers, for others who were taught about stealing and returning thing to their rightful owners and ethics and just doing the right thing, Holland will be an example of all the things a person shouldn't do.

Ezra has nailed it down,

Grit crusader just a snoop By EZRA LEVANT (the Calgary Sun link doesn't work)

http://theblackkettle.blogspot.com/2007/04...just-snoop.html

-snip-

But before Holland returned them, he opened and read each one.

He had no shame about it.

He announced it. He called a press conference to brag about it. He even had a Liberal staff member videotape him. The video is still posted on the Liberal party's website. This wasn't some rogue act by a loony-tune MP. It was sanctioned by Stephane Dion, the Liberal leader himself.

In that video, individual personnel appraisals are shown on the screen, with actual names of employees who have had their human resources files thumbed through by Holland.

The employees haven't even seen their files. But Holland has -- and so has the Liberal "research" staff.

Holland was meticulous.

There were 174 files, he says. He went through them all, to make sure there wasn't anything that was in the "public interest".

-snip-

But then, in the video that Holland himself made, it is clear the Tories didn't negligently leave them behind.

They had been boxed, sealed, and addressed to the Tories' new offices.

They simply were not picked up by Parliament's internal messenger service -- or intercepted by the Liberals.

-snip-

Politics is politics. But stealing and leaking private personnel files is too much. Stephane Dion didn't see fit to teach that to Mark Holland.

Perhaps the RCMP should.

[Figleaf]

Did he ever say he found the documents IN the boxes??

Right. It's a new way of packing that the the Hill has discovered: ea...

I take that to mean the answer is no, he never said that. In all this wild speculation, it seems as likely as anything else that he simply used a leftover box for some documents he found. The accusers of Holland seem to claim a HUGE amount of inside info on 'how things work' and 'what he'd know' and similar crapola.

Meanwhile, we know that Hart, the MP who doesn't deny getting a benefit for stepping down, is implicated in a 'negotiation' that axiomatically had someone on the other end of it. Someone close to Stockwell Day, perhaps.

[Figleaf]

" But stealing and leaking private personnel files is too much."

Holland should sue Ezra dry. That's libel. There's no way what Holland did is "stealing".

It's disgusting that anyone in the media could get away with that kind of shi7.

[Michael Bluth]

" But stealing and leaking private personnel files is too much."

Holland should sue Ezra dry. That's libel. There's no way what Holland did is "stealing".

It's disgusting that anyone in the media could get away with that kind of shi7.

Yeah, ithere is something wrong with Ezra's behaviour in this case. .

I am sure that Ezra would be more than happy to be taken to court by Holland on this one.

Would Holland answer truthfully on the stand?

Ezra having the chance to cross-examine Holland under oath would be classic.

[Martin Chriton]

I guess for some it's Finders Keepers, for others who were taught about stealing and returning thing to their rightful owners and ethics and just doing the right thing, Holland will be an example of all the things a person shouldn't do.

Is finders keepers what they are teaching in school these days? Back when I was a child, I was taught that it was wrong. I guess things have changed.

I'm sure if Holland ever found some tax money being misspent (say in advertising contacts) he'd make sure the LPOC kept some of it.

[Michael Bluth]

Is finders keepers what they are teaching in school these days? Back when I was a child, I was taught that it was wrong. I guess things have changed.

I'm sure if Holland ever found some tax money being misspent (say in advertising contacts) he'd make sure the LPOC kept some of it.

Remember, the LPOC had many apologists after the revelations of the Gomery Report.

I heard, and read here, the Liberals try and argue that it was *only* $1.14 Million.

[hiti]

Just how does this "competent" (cough) "new" government lose 174 files for a year and not know it?

Now if I were moving into an office, I would be opening boxes without checking if they had someone else's name on them because I would be expecting that all boxes in the office were mine.

Finding dishonest behaviour on the part of another political party or politician is part of politics and nobody is going to cover up for their political opponent.

Stockwell Day proves he is incompetent by leaving his old files behind and not even bother to try and find them.

But again we have the Harperites blaming the Liberals. Everything is the Liberals fault. They made Day leave his office stuff lying around. It was the Liberals who made this "new" government leave their personal files and not bother to look for them. Bad Liberals.

[Michael Bluth]

Stockwell Day proves he is incompetent by leaving his old files behind and not even bother to try and find them.

Yup. Incompetence.

[geoffrey]

Ezra having the chance to cross-examine Holland under oath would be classic.

Wouldn't it though? Ezra is right in my opinion, these files didn't belong to Holland, he knew that, why was he reading it? It only takes a brief glance at the first couple of files to understand that these weren't his documents.

The fact that he kept looking is a poor reflection on a repeatedly unethical person.

Like I said, if Dion doesn't shut him up fast, Holland is going to keep costing the Liberals possible voters. Holland single handedly crushed all hopes of picking up two possible ridings in Edmonton. He's great evidence that Liberals view Albertans as a 'them' and not as an 'us'. Which is fine, until that changes they'll continue to not be represented in Canada's leading economy.

I don't think Holland broke any laws concerning these documents, but I know that this is a clear reflection and confirmation of the character of this guy that I've been asserting all along.

Even the Liberals are too good for this guy.

Dion needs to axe him before he costs them more, and more, and more.

[scribblet]

Ezra having the chance to cross-examine Holland under oath would be classic.

Wouldn't it though? Ezra is right in my opinion, these files didn't belong to Holland, he knew that, why was he reading it? It only takes a brief glance at the first couple of files to understand that these weren't his documents.

The fact that he kept looking is a poor reflection on a repeatedly unethical person.

......

Even the Liberals are too good for this guy.

Dion needs to axe him before he costs them more, and more, and more.

I agree. If mail for someone else was put in your mailbox, would you open it and read it, or return it to the P.O. (or the owner). This is indeed very telling about the character of Marc Holland et al who support hijacking private property, rifling through them and reading personal information.

As for not missing the boxes, why would they out of 100s, unless they needed a particular file for reference. We moved six years ago, I still have a box in my basement unopened....

[Michael Bluth]

Even the Liberals are too good for this guy.

Dion needs to axe him before he costs them more, and more, and more.

I agree. If mail for someone else was put in your mailbox, would you open it and read it, or return it to the P.O. (or the owner). This is indeed very telling about the character of Marc Holland et al who support hijacking private property, rifling through them and reading personal information.

As for not missing the boxes, why would they out of 100s, unless they needed a particular file for reference. We moved six years ago, I still have a box in my basement unopened....

The Liberals are too good for Holland?

Unfortunately not. Holland's actions here are perfectly in line with a party that conceived of, carried out and publicly defended their sponsorship program.

From what I understand it is a standard psychological question of people what they would do if they found a letter addressed to someone else. I wonder what Holland's actions say about him.