Parents Beware!

[newbie]

I had a nephew who went around biting people, including his baby brother, because he thought it was funny. One day he bit me, so I bit him back, not hard, not enough to break the skin or even make an indention, but enough to get his attention. He learned that biting people is wrong, and that it hurts, and since then he has stopped biting people.

I'd hate to think of what you'd do to little Johnny if you caught him peeing in the back yard

[betsy]

I, myself do not think spanking is wrong. I was spanked as a child by my mom numerous time throughout my childhood, and only once by my dad.....and yet, I never hated or resented them for it. I guess it all depends on one's relatoionship with parents at home, the over-all atmosphere. I am fortunate enough to have been raised by loving parents, who were also demonstrative in their affections (especially my mom).

On one hand it is now hard to blame some teachers who are AFRAID TO DISCIPLINE...for anything might trigger a lawsuit or grievance from just about any pseudo-child advocate.

I heard of public daycares who call parents at work to deal with their two-year olds having temper tantrums!

My current 8 year old boy I was talking about got into trouble for being loud-mouthed and rambunctious in a school bus. The principal gave him something to do as a penalty (which stretched for about a week).

Guess what! After he did his "time"....they gave him a "prize" for doing what he was supposed to do as punishment. Of course the boy was excited about the prize! The whole point why he was doing time was lost!

I dealt with this boy in a severe way at my daycare (I guess he was testing me since he was new at the time, therefore it was the perfect time to show him how different I am from the others who dealt with him).

He got banned from video games for two weeks, AND he had to write 200 lines saying "I will not blah-blah-blah...." I warned him that I do not want a sloppy writing....because I also consider that as a writing exercise. He can do the writing at his own pace....but if he did not finish, it will be the first thing he'll continue doing the very next day (just to let him know that going home does not mean everything is forgotten). It was the most boring two weeks of his life (which is good). I did not ease up. Two weeks is just that - two weeks! I told him that next time he does what he did, he'll be looking at a month and 500 lines!

Once children know you are consistent...and that you definitely do what you say....it is usually smooth-sailing from then on!

Now, this boy is just like a normal kid. Even better that some normal kid. After his punishment, I noticed he crave "entertainment." His attention span on toys and video games is short. He would say "I am bored." I say..."if you are bored with so many toys, puzzles and books around you...well, I can't help you. You've got to learn how to entertain yourself without relying on anyone to do it for you. Why don't you read book? It will open up a whole new world for you. Look at the toddlers how they play, they use their imagination!"

Now guess what, he rummaged through all the books geared for older kids and guess what he dug up and chosed! A child's BIBLE! He's engrossed in it and got to page 57 at the first reading. I gave him a bookmark. I thought that was it, a one-shot-wonder. Yesterday, I found him relaxed on the kiddie couch, still with that bible! He also spends hours on blocks...

Some kids just don't know how to trigger their imagination...from lack of use as growing toddlers!

[EchoesofMourning]

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Define "ordinary."

An ordinary spanking is one that gets the point across, but does no permanent damage.

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Remove a vital component of a childs life as discipline. He/she loves X box ..?...take it away. They love to play sports, then take a game or two away. It if nothing else it ingrains in the kid the fact that they lose something. A whack on the ass is over in 15 seconds , what good is that?

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An ordinary spanking is violence against another person. or in other words, abuse.

Spanking is by no means something to be used to adjust a kid's attitude towards school, or any other larger issue - that's one to be solved through parental interaction with children. Spanking is justified however, if it is used to teach a child a quick and biting lesson. If, for example, my kid calls my wife a "cunt" he will recieve a swift smack. This is because physical violence is an extreme to be used only in extreme situations. 'Time out', or removal of entertainment, or any other of a million non-physical versions of punishment are to be used on a regular basis, and even in the above example, after the kid gets his smack.

My point is that many people do not just "swat across the backside." ...

I agree 100%. A lot of people see spanking as a fix-all, if you will, and it is often used in far too many situations. That does not prove that it should be banned. Far too many people eat McDonalds, does that mean that the place should be banned?

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Doesn't work on dogs, why should it work on higher learning creatures?

Get sterilized . Do it for the children .

Ah but it does work on dogs. Look at the prevalence of choke-chains, shock-collars, and all sorts of other kinds of corporal training methods. I'm not saying that it's the only way to train a dog, but it does work.

Also, there is no need to tell someone to get sterilized - the point of a forum is to inspire argument. Just because you don't agree is no reason to start throwing insults.

A swat on the backside with an open hand can be a useful tool in extraordinary circumstances. An attention getter so to speak, not punishment. It establishes that there really is a limit to what kind of behavior is tolerable. The more it is used however, the less an impression it will make and the less effective it will be IMO.

I absolutely agree - as I stated earlier, a spanking will not affect larger issues in the child, but it can teach a smaller lesson.

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On one hand it is now hard to blame some teachers who are AFRAID TO DISCIPLINE...for anything might trigger a lawsuit or grievance from just about any pseudo-child advocate.

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Because the definition of child abuse is growing broader by the day, authority figures (such as teachers) are being forced to use fewer and fewer methods. For example - a parent can sue a teacher for yelling at their child - verbal abuse. Now I don't know about everyone, but I was yelled at tons when I was a kid and it had no ill effect on me.

[guyser]

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Define "ordinary."

An ordinary spanking is one that gets the point across, but does no permanent damage.

No permanent physical damage . We have no idea about mental damage.

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Doesn't work on dogs, why should it work on higher learning creatures?

Ah but it does work on dogs. Look at the prevalence of choke-chains, shock-collars, and all sorts of other kinds of corporal training methods. I'm not saying that it's the only way to train a dog, but it does work.

No, you are confusing restraint techniques with physical punishment.

Also, there is no need to tell someone to get sterilized - the point of a forum is to inspire argument. Just because you don't agree is no reason to start throwing insults.

Correct and I agree. My apologies to ceemes (I think he was the OP) Thank you for pointing that out.

[EchoesofMourning]

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No permanent physical damage . We have no idea about mental damage.

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No, you are confusing restraint techniques with physical punishment.

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You were spanked as a child, and are you suffering a serious malady because of it? I can speak for myself - I was spanked often. I was smacked around on at least a weekly basis, but it was never done when I didn't deserve it. When I mouthed off, I got smacked; when I gave even a hint of violence towards a family member, I got smacked. This caused no mental damage - to the contrary, it taught (sp?) me respect for those that deserve it, and that is a lesson that today's kids dearly need to learn.

Secondly, you train a child to restrain their natural urges through certain techniques, the same as you do with any domesticated animal - and what's the difference between that and teaching a child to restrain their innapropriate urges?

[guyser]

You were spanked as a child, and are you suffering a serious malady because of it?

One persons anecdote is not to be extrapolated into a thesis. You could have likely hit me with a bat as a child ( I was big) and not suffer any harm. But it is still violence without reason.

I can speak for myself - I was spanked often. I was smacked around on at least a weekly basis, but it was never done when I didn't deserve it. When I mouthed off, I got smacked; when I gave even a hint of violence towards a family member, I got smacked. This caused no mental damage - to the contrary, it taught (sp?) me respect for those that deserve it, and that is a lesson that today's kids dearly need to learn.

Weekly huh? The it obviously did you no good. You say so right there.If it were effective it would have worked earlier in life, but you admit it went on. You say you were punished with violence by doing violence on another family member.

Children and learning respect is not the same as hitting children. Why do parental abusers have children that grow up to abuse? Why do pedophiles leave such a lasting wake in their victims.

No I am not saying pedos and spanking is the same. I am saying that lasting harm is not known for a decade or more, perhaps less in severe cases.

Secondly, you train a child to restrain their natural urges through certain techniques, the same as you do with any domesticated animal - and what's the difference between that and teaching a child to restrain their innapropriate urges?

Yes restraint being the operative word. Both with child and with animals. Although my training of my dog was all done with love and affection, not one swipe at the dog. Grabbing the dog at the collar mimics the alpha dog biting a pup, they know it and respond to it.

But the alpha dog does not rear up and take a shot at the pup/child.

[Drea]

But the alpha dog does not rear up and take a shot at the pup/child.

Actually, alpha dogs discipline pups by biting them on their butts. Surely you've seen this...the youngster yelps and runs away with his tail down...it hurts, but he KNOWS that he's done wrong.

A lot like a spanking

[betsy]

No permanent physical damage . We have no idea about mental damage.

Yes, for SOME we have no idea about the mental/psychological damage (because it all depends on how and why).

BUT we not only have a mental idea....we actually see....the damage of what is being passed as "discipline method", is actually doing. It's messing up our children. It's messing up our society.

Young parents are usually either clue-less how to deal with their children since a lot of them lack the role models of effective parenting when they themselves were growing up. I took up a course called "Systematic Training For Effective Parenting" way back in the early eighties, and this course deals with children with problem behaviours. The notion of giving choices to children in that course had been tweaked and re-invented by today's method to mean "negotiate."

HOW DO YOU NEGOTIATE WITH A THREE OR FOUR YEAR OLD? Johnny, it's bitterly cold outside, you've got to wear your winter coat. The end result of the negotiation: Johnny goes out with his coat undone! Or worse...the parent sheepishly tells me "Oh well, it's only from here to the car!"

I mean, who is in control? I've seen some of these parents nerves so frayed dealing with a child they do not know how to handle. If there is trouble in the marital relationship, tension like this could be the final nail that goes right in that coffin. I've got a set of parent going through that right now. Dad is in denial and says the stress of handling their child is not part of the problem...whereas mom, says it's part of the problem. I know it's part of the problem.

But of course, parents do not want to ARGUE with children. A lot of them are worn-out from work that the last thing they need is resisting the relentless battering of a wilful and determined child. It's so easy to just give in.

If we think we have a problem now due to these parents who grew up on Dr Spock methods of discipline...wait till this current generation of children become parents themselves.

[Frankie]

Betsy is completely right. I'm not sure how anyone can possibly not see that, or disagrees with it. A huge thing that makes things easier for parents is the fact that you're not supposed to argue with your kid. That's the worst thing you can do. Especailly if it comes to that everyday, it's very stressful on both you and your kid. I remember if I ever started an arguement with my mother when I was a kid, I would get a shot so fast. Then I knew, there is no such thing as negotiation with my parents. It's a good system, trust me. And I plan to put it to practice one day.

[EchoesofMourning]

"One persons anecdote is not to be extrapolated into a thesis. You could have likely hit me with a bat as a child ( I was big) and not suffer any harm. "

I'm not trying to hold your experiences out from anyone elses. The point is that you could ask nearly anyone, and they would tell you that they had been spanked. Also, the question remains - were you spanked without reason?

"Weekly huh? The it obviously did you no good...

Children and learning respect is not the same as hitting children..."

First of all, when has a child ever responded quickly to someone telling them that they can't do something? Add this natural tendency to the fact that I was an increadibly stubborn and headstrong child, and you can understand that I didn't get this concept quickly. This is not the fault of my parents - they did nothing wrong - it comes down to my hardwiring, and the fact that I am not, and never was, quick to accept authority.

Secondly, spanking is not necessarily equivalent to teaching a child respect, but when used in specific circumstances, it does work. For example, talk to any older person - say older than 40 - and ask them what they think about the level of respect they recieve and they see recieved by themselves and others from children. Odds are they will say that it is terrible. Respect was a very important value in the past, and I'd like to think that it should be today. However, children now are treated as adults - fully capable and functioning adults - and that is simply wrong. Children are subordinate to their parents - and should be treated as such. I am sick and tired of seeing a frustrated parent trying to convince their child to stop throwing a fit in a mall!

[betsy]

But the alpha dog does not rear up and take a shot at the pup/child.

Actually, alpha dogs discipline pups by biting them on their butts. Surely you've seen this...the youngster yelps and runs away with his tail down...it hurts, but he KNOWS that he's done wrong.

A lot like a spanking

Ho-ho-ho....come to think of it, dog-obedience training techniques might work as well with children!

(I've lost my emoticons....but I'm laughing while writing this.)

[Live From China]

I am sick and tired of seeing a frustrated parent trying to convince their child to stop throwing a fit in a mall!

Me too!

There is another side to this: parents are becoming way too concerned about protecting their children. The is an article in a recent MacLean's entitled "Bubble Wrapping Your Children." Now it has nothing to do with spanking, but it discusses how parents are soooooooooo concern about protecting their children from any kind of risk. The result seems to be the raising of coddled children who are afraid of their own shadow! The result will be coddled adults who are afraid of their own shadow, and incapable of evaluating risk taking behaviors.

I am wondering if 25 years from now, before people have children they will required to hire a lawyer and an entire social services department to protect their kids.

Then their is school where the words competition, winner, loser and (gasp!) failure, are almost forbidden by law. And the buzzword is self-esteem.

[PolyNewbie]

Too much Aspertame & white sugar & too many mercury filled shots and not enough morality is the problem I think. I have no kids and no direct experience with education.

[Live From China]

Too much overparenting!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6620793/

The above article is general but very enlightening. Almost humorous at times. I just can't imagine a parent phoning a professor (not a high school teacher!) and complaining about their "child's" grade. If this wasn't so pathetic, it would actually be hilarious.