RFID chips

[guyser]

By wearing a shirt made with the same stuff as the pouch.

Forgive me but I do not think you understand that these chips can be inserted ANYWHERE in your body.

Hey no forgiveness needed. Those that have suspicions would certainly be scanned to find out.

What knowledge I have is came about because the US has already installed RFID chips in new passports (trial basis)

The measurements against this were out within days. The US govt wanted them in there to know the whereabouts of its citizens worldwide.

Not for me thanks.

[PolyNewbie]

These shirts can have RFID chips in them and the T shirt can be matched to you with the credit card you used to buy it.

[guyser]

These shirts can have RFID chips in them and the T shirt can be matched to you with the credit card you used to buy it.

Wow thanks...got a point to make?

[GostHacked]

Kimmy

Why? You already submit to identification. You already present photo ID when you go to a club. Some places even have patrons sign in. An establishment certainly has the right to refuse service to someone who won't provide adequate identification.

Sure I give the bouncer my photo ID, aka my drivers license. He takes it, looks at it, verifies it's legit, and lets me in. He does not take down an inventory of what/who is inside. But he does count me in for regulating the crowd for capacity and other saftey concerns.

Why do they need my fingerprint? To me only police would be the ones to ask for a fingerprint/scan. Or you may need it for high security government buildings, but for a local pub? Over the top. I used to work in clubs and let me tell you last event I went to )as a patron) getting a fingerprint off me would not have done much good, for I caught 2 bouncers ASLEEP at their posts.

But true it can reduce crime. But it will not stop it. but you can find out who is responsible.

Now for suveilance cameras in a city. Most of them are put in places where you would not notice, They are all semi hidden and semi disguised. So you don't really know if you are being watched or not. So yes it is a public place and you still have some right to privacy in a public place. This to me is unwanted and unwarranted surveilance, I am being exposed to without prior consent.

Crimes of opportunity, where there's no surveillance, no witnesses, and little chance of being caught or punished, for instance, would likely be deterred to some degree. A man was severely beaten at a public transit station last night; I find it likely that the perpetrators would have been as bold if they'd known they were being recorded and their faces would be matched to their drivers licenses.

I live in Ottawa, and the transit system has plenty of cameras. Even on some buses. And in the past months I have seen more put in. I am a daily rider of the transit system and these things I do notice. People are attacked at the stations every once in a while here. Many times no one is caught and prosecuted. So by that, even with all this extra suveilance, the crime was caught on camera, and yet no one can be identified. Criminals are smarter than that most of the time. The people who do get caught are just petty thieves with no though process at all.

Interesting you say Kimmy when credit card fraud is at it's highest it has ever been. Eventhough the banks/financial comanies and even you have taken more steps to feel 'secure' it is more rampant today than ever. How does this make sense?

Ok, so Fred from H is a wanted criminal, and Kimmy from A is unlucky enough to trigger facial recognition software and is detained at airport security. Oh dear. Does Kimmy spend the rest of her life in jail? Or do people quickly recognize that Kimmy is not Fred and send her on her way?

Mistaken identity is a problem too. If machines can make mistakes (and they do for humans have programmed them) then a human can make larger errors. However this detention for a moment now just made you miss your flight and ruined your whole vacation.

More technology that is introduced the more oppourtunities there are for this kind of criminal activity. I very much love and enjoy my privacy. Cameras take that away from me. I feel like I am being scrutinized at every turn.

[guyser]

Now for suveilance cameras in a city. Most of them are put in places where you would not notice, They are all semi hidden and semi disguised. So you don't really know if you are being watched or not. So yes it is a public place and you still have some right to privacy in a public place. This to me is unwanted and unwarranted surveilance, I am being exposed to without prior consent.

You have no right to privacy in a public place. None. You gave consent, you went out in public.

I very much love and enjoy my privacy. Cameras take that away from me. I feel like I am being scrutinized at every turn.

I enjoy and love my privacy too. But cameras in public (you did mean in public right?) took nothing away from you but perhaps your anonimity. You are/can be scrutinized at every turn. Stay home if right to privacy is your wish.

I found it hard to fathom, but reality is cameras are here to stay , and we have to get used to it. RFID chips are the next step , but they are specific "tailers" of the person, wherein cameras are merely happenstance events.

Thus , no RFID for me

[PolyNewbie]

Yes, it is a problem. Data can be fudged.

Call me PN008E and I will call you Mark Furman

Keep me out of your stupid responses. You should know better as a mod.

[PolyNewbie]

guyser:Wow thanks...got a point to make?

Yes. You missed it.

[ceemes]

Has anyone considered the huge data trail we leave behind us each day as we go about our lives?

Did you use your credit card or ATM card today? Well unless you used it to withdraw money you have just left a wealth of information to various marketing firms. However about that Safeway club card? You know the one that gives you discounts and freebies? Same deal, one swipe of that card enter into a database, who you are, where you bought your food, what items you bought, when you bought them and how much your spent. That is a hell of a lot of data. Forgot your club card, no problem give them your phone number to the cashier and it'll be cross-referenced for you. Don't believe me? Try this, next time you go to Safeway, don't give them your club card but your phone number and see if the cashier doesn't use your name when saying good bye, even if you pay with cash.

Got a library card? Odds are it has a magnetic strip on the back and each book you take out is recorded on a database somewhere

The idea of RDIF chips is just more of the same. Walmart says its to better track inventory, I don't buy it. When I was studying Logistics I did a study of the Walmart inventory control processes. They already have in place bar-coding and a centralized inventory control system. Every item in a store is noted in the ICS database, and when sold, it is automatically deducted in real time from that stores inventory. Each store is linked to their regional Distribution Centre which automatically resupplies the store when its inventories reach a pre-set level. And each RDC is linked to the main DC's which in turn are linked to their suppliers. A very slick and tidy system. The only thing RDIF chips will do is identify each individual SKU to its purchaser. IE, item 100 of Stock B was bought on this day by Mr. So and So from store X. The only way to avoid being tagged like this is to pay cash.

Another great potential tracking scam is the GM On-Star system. Yeah its great for telling you where your stolen car is, but what other information can it gather and relay back to some database? That you have a habit of speeding? In the US, that information could be relayed to your Insurance Company and cost you higher insurance rates? Forgot to get that oil change 10,000's ago, sorry your warranty is now void.

The thing is, we are becoming all to complaicant about the type and amount of personal data we are leaving behind us daily. RFID chips do scare me, they are already being used as a means of tracking lost or stolen pet and about a year ago I read that someone in the US proposed they be implanted in children as a means to protect them from kidnappers or the like. Scary stuff if you ask me.

[geoffrey]

Good post Ceemes. In a marketing class I took (unfortunate waste of hours of my life), we studied some similiar systems to track customer activities and report. The ethics were touched on, but it was basically relayed as a reasonable thing to do to develop more business intelligence.

Very scary to me.

From an accounting perspective (what I do), these RFID chips seem like an interesting idea in controlling inventory internally and managing all sorts of areas of vunerability. I know they are used extensively in data (records) management already, with some great success. There are definitely some ethical troubles with a company using them externally.

My belief in free markets though leads me to a semi-market solution. Force all companies to indicate if they use RFID or other methods to track customer habits. Then let the customer decide if that data is worth spending more at another shop.

[Drea]

It seems RFID chips are already in use...

How long before the rest of us are forced to get one "for our own good"?

Verichip in use in 500 US Hospitals

Scott R. Silverman, Chairman and CEO of VeriChip, commented, "We are very pleased to add 65 new hospitals to our network on day one of this three-day conference. Furthermore, we are proud to achieve a significant milestone in our infrastructure build-out. With more than 500 hospitals now enrolled in the VeriMed Patient Identification System, we are well on our way to meeting our stated year-end goal of 800 hospitals in the VeriMed network."

geoffrey,

My belief in free markets though leads me to a semi-market solution. Force all companies to indicate if they use RFID or other methods to track customer habits. Then let the customer decide if that data is worth spending more at another shop.

A person has to be implanted... and the store has to have the scanning device... So if I see a store with sign that reads "Vericihp used here", it will make no difference to me as I am non-chipped. So the customer's choice is in whether or not he will accept being chipped.

[stignasty]

stignasty:Is this really an issue? I mean, has anyone in a position of authority ever proposed this?

You bet. Look for Devey Kidd on the web.

Or, you could have just told me... Anyway, I'll just chalk it up as more paranoia from Polynewbie.

[jdobbin]

The insidious nature of RFID chips is that it is easy to implant them into people without their consent.

What's wrong with that? That way they can catch shoplifters and kleptomaniacs and bill them directly.

Place one in people's heads and you can track all their activity. No more terrorism. Woo-ee.

You're being soft on crime here. <heh>

[Drea]

Stignasty... check out the link in my above post.

It is true. RFID chips are being implemented in hospitals in Florida.

Poly -- everything you type is going to be considered nutbar. Because you've muddied (and made sound totally crazy with your fanatical ranting) every non-mainstream idea (read conspiracy theory) from 911 to Marilyn Monroe's death. Now, regular folks can't even have a conversation about it or debate it intelligently.. Thanks a freakin' bunch.

There ARE real "conspiracies" happening out there folks -- and verichip is no longer simply a conspiracy.

[stignasty]

Stignasty... check out the link in my above post.

It says the hospitals have agreed to use Verichip as the standard, not that they're going to start implanting everyone who walks into the emergency room. That's the same as saying they're going to use Windows as their operating system in the hospital.

I don't see anything that says that anyone in any position of power has proposed wide scale implantations of the devices.

It still sounds like paranoia to me.

[ceemes]

Stignasty... check out the link in my above post.

It says the hospitals have agreed to use Verichip as the standard, not that they're going to start implanting everyone who walks into the emergency room. That's the same as saying they're going to use Windows as their operating system in the hospital.

I don't see anything that says that anyone in any position of power has proposed wide scale implantations of the devices.

It still sounds like paranoia to me.

Paranoia? Perhaps. But lets face it, we will use any technology when it becomes available. Today's government may be completely against the use of such technology as a means of identifying and tracking its citizenship, but who is to say tomorrows government wont be for it?

I think that is the real fear many have, the what about tomorrow factor. So perhaps it would be a good idea to put in place laws to insure that these technologies cannot nor will not be used as a means to control and limit our freedoms in some not so distant future.

[kuzadd]

check out the book "Spychips"

How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track Your Every Move with RFID

http://www.amazon.com/Spychips-Major-Corpo...k/dp/1595550208

the difference between an implanted spychip, and using a credit card is, when you don't use your credit card, it's not giving any information at all.

being implanted, your whereabouts are known 24/7, you infact cannot get away from being tracked.

It's a total and complete invasion of privacy and can be easily used as a 'Control Mechanism'.

if your implanted rfid tag, is tied to your bank account, let's say.... and you go to an anti-government protest, the government, tracks you at the protest, links you to your bank account and your money is confiscated, because you are now a "terrorist"

IMHO: no one in there right mind , could be in support of this.

[PolyNewbie]

and made sound totally crazy with your fanatical ranting

It is all crazy !! Its beyond the pale - its worse than we can even imagine.

I wonder who is in favour of all this. three votes for yes - once accidental which leaves two.

[PolyNewbie]

stignasty:Or, you could have just told me... Anyway, I'll just chalk it up as more paranoia from Polynewbie.

I don't know enough about it to be informing anyone. You should look into it yourself.

[obsidian]

the REAL ID ACT, in the united states mandates that all new drivers licenses must have:

-the full legal name

-DOB

-gender

-drivers license or identification number

-digital photograph of the person

-person principle adress

-their signature

-security features

-common machine-readable technology (could be RFID)

http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/real_id_act.pdf

it has been passed, that you must have this new identification card to open a bank account, travel abroad by (train, boat, plane, obviously cars), to enter federal buildings, among others(will get citation). you can see how this can be an inconvienience. i think the personal RFID chip will either be marketed to parents, afraid of losing their child or marketed as a hastle free solution to the swiping of card and being checked by officials. theyd market it as a way to guarantee the safety of your child, which everyone wants. once the child has it he has no say, and will become accustomed to it and inturn allow for his child to recieve one aswell. the idea will assimilate into culture. and if thats not the case it will be marketed to make the card seem like such a burden, and that the chip is a solution.

i dont think they could get everyone to submit to this all at once, would be more gradual

[GostHacked]

Obsidian, my Ontario drivers lisence has all that now except the RDIF tag. And it should stay that way.

-the full legal name

check!

-DOB

check!

-gender

check!

-drivers license or identification number

check!

-digital photograph of the person

check!

-person principle adress

check!

-their signature

check!

-security features

check!

-common machine-readable technology (could be RFID)

negatvie here on that one., well there is a magnetic strip on the card.

The only difference is the RDIF tag, the magnetic strip is on my license and needs to be physicaly swiped or the number put into a program to actually find my information. They will not need to ask for your drivers license anymore, they just grap the info off the RDIF tag. Now they say the range of the tag is very limited and yoiu need to be only couple inches away from the card to read that information. Who knows maybe the range on these tags can get wider. The cop can take all your info from your license plate on the car and then scan the RDIF tag while still in the cruiser.

What's wrong with that? That way they can catch shoplifters and kleptomaniacs and bill them directly.

Place one in people's heads and you can track all their activity. No more terrorism. Woo-ee.

Sorry, there was a computer glitch and you now have been charged with shoplifitng and the funds are now taken out of your account. But I am sure if we take your fingerprint/iris scan/dns sample, we can verify you are you and have all charges dropped.

Back to square one.

[obsidian]

yes i do know that, maybe i should of put "common readable technology" in bold?

the things that scare me is the:

1. ability to not open a bank account without the card with RFID

2. not transport ourselves (by car or any other means) without the card

3. not able to enter federal buildings without it

these all violate our:

guaranteed rights and freedoms

fundemental freedoms

mobility rights

equality rights(need to have the card/RFID)

and if you look at our charter, thats 4/8 of the headings...

i know this is called the REAL ID act in the united states, and in Canada we have the exact same thing except we have little or no coverage on it. this was scheduled for may 27th, but has now been pushed back for 2 years.

"until the end of 2009, to meet the requirements of the Real ID Act"

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-418

well atleast it has been pushed back..but its still in our lifetime.

whenever i read about this i cant help but think of the book of revelations....

"16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

The Revelation

of St. John the Divine

13 - 16