Will people of Toronto sell their votes

[Saturn]

There are few things a federal government can do that creates more jobs than infrastructure.

Every dollar collected in taxes is one dollar not spent by taxpayers. You seem to think that only government spending creates jobs. How many jobs are lost because of taxes? And since when is job creation a sensible measure of the benefits of an economic policy?

Dobbin, taken to its logical conclusion, your argument implies that if the government taxed us 100%, and then used the money for infrastructure, we could create jobs for all and we'd all be rich.

I'm amazed by your "logical" conclusions (so many of them) that are completely illogical. Take a course in logic or something.

[Saturn]

There are a lot of subsidies for the oil industry now. More than a mass transit line in Toronto to be sure.

Perhaps it's because the oil industry is paying for that Toronto transit line. Without it, Canada's growth would be dead stagnant. Be careful of killing the golden goose, most oil related government revenues go to Ottawa, not Edmonton.

Again, Toronto generates far more tax revenue for Ottawa than the oil industry. The oil industry may be the most important to you but it's not nearly as important to the country as you imagine. In fact, the economy of Toronto + suburbs is larger than that of Alberta (oil industry included). Don't even begin to imagine that the mass transit line funding for TO is anything but a small fraction of the taxes leaving TO to be spend elsewhere that is coming back. Your oil industry doesn't factor into this picture at all.

[Saturn]

That's a big eastern myth that isn't really valid anymore. Geography is irrelevant with banking anyways.

There has been a major shift in that dependancy. It makes more sense for the government to improve the infrastruture of those provinces willing to adapt and grow then funnel money into a economically collapsing area.

Because Toronto is stagnant, not producing any growth.

More wishful thinking on your behalf. Toronto's economy grew at 2.3% in 2006. In 2008, growth in TO is forecast at 4+%, which is higher than the forecast for Calgary and Edmonton (even for this year). I'd hardly call TO "an economically collapsing area".

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/2006/metro_winter07.asp

Ottawa, December 20, 2006 – Even though economic growth in Calgary and Edmonton is expected to moderate in 2007, the two Alberta cities will remain one-two among Canadian Census Metropolitan Areas (CMAs), according to the Conference Board’s Metropolitan Outlook – Winter 2007.

Both Calgary and Edmonton are benefiting from robust energy investment, strong construction activity and healthy service-producing industries. After expanding by an estimated 7.3 per cent in 2006, Calgary’s economy will grow by almost four per cent next year. Edmonton, ranked second last year with economic growth of 6.6 per cent, will remain second with a further gain of 3.6 per cent in 2007.

Toronto’s economy will also accelerate next year, from growth of 2.3 per cent in 2006 to 2.9 per cent in 2007. Much of this rebound can be attributed to the expected recovery in the manufacturing sector, which dragged down overall growth in 2006. Beginning in 2008, Toronto’s average annual growth of 4.1 per cent is forecast to lead all 20 Canadian CMAs covered in this edition of the Metropolitan Outlook.

[jdobbin]

Because Toronto is stagnant, not producing any growth. A new way for bankers to get to work isn't going to increase our wealth as a nation. Expanded trucking ability into Fort McMurray will. My ideal choice would be for Ottawa to cut taxes and let provinces raise their own revenue to meet their responsibilities.

I believe Toronto's growth is anything but stagnant. And it isn't all about the bankers and insurance. Most of the packaged foods you eat come from Toronto not Calgary or Edmonton.

I have no problem with a national strategy to build infrastructure to our major industrial areas. That would include Fort McMurray and Toronto.

Lastly, most of the Prairie regional offices for the western banks remained in Winnipeg through the 1980s, some into the 1990s until they moved one by one to Alberta. Royal Bank for the first time since the move just opened a regional investment bank to go along with its provincial office this year. Quite simply, they felt that they couldn't leave the entire market to the Richardsons and Wellington West.

[Mad_Michael]

Harper is giving the Ontario Liberals a good shot in the arm as far as the elctions go.( I wonder what John Tory is thinking) The BILLION $$$ for transportation will probably have no trouble passing in Parliament. The question is, will the voters of Ontario still vote for Harper and the Ontario Libs??? One has to wonder if its was Rona who was against the environment instead of Harper OR here he is again wanting something really bad, a majority government and spend our money to do it. I just wonder how much money Harper is spending. There just one problem, how is Harper going to get the support of "small town Ontario". I will say Harper is smart by offering this and I'm sure Layton, who lives in TO will vote for it!! I rather have what Martin had offered that Layton voted against it. There was something for everyone in the that budget. So far all I see for me is 1.00 something off my groceries because of the GST tax reduction.

That election goodie that Harper & McGuinty announced yesterday was targeted to the 905 belt voters, not Toronto voters. It is actually a slap in the face to Toronto voters (who will be on the hook to pay for 30 years of subsidies to the new subway line what is projected to be a money loser for the next 25 years).

There is nothing for Toronto in a 905 belt extension of the subway to serve York U. This will not add to the TTC's capacity, this will not address overcrowding issues or capacity issues on the TTC, this will not contribute to any Kyoto-style reduction in greenhouse gases in Toronto.

It is just a typical political 'goodie' for voters. It is not good transit planning and the TTC didn't ask for this subway line.

[August1991]

I'm amazed by your "logical" conclusions (so many of them) that are completely illogical. Take a course in logic or something.

Rather than declare my argument "illogical", could you point out instead the fallacy?

Reducing commuting time means that people can work longer hours and/or spend more time resting, which can in turn increase labour supply and productivity.

That may or may not be true but it is not up to federal politicians or federal bureaucrats to make these decisions. They should let provincial or municipal authorities decide.

Moreover, why should a taxpayer in Nova Scotia pay money so that someone richer in Toronto will get even richer? If this is such a good project, property values will increase and this is a subsidy from Nova Scotians (for example) to these (already rich) property owners.

Don't even begin to imagine that the mass transit line funding for TO is anything but a small fraction of the taxes leaving TO to be spend elsewhere that is coming back.

There we go: the Toronto reaction in a nutshell. Harper's money isn't enough. Toronto deserves more.

Or how about this argument:

That election goodie that Harper & McGuinty announced yesterday was targeted to the 905 belt voters, not Toronto voters. It is actually a slap in the face to Toronto voters (who will be on the hook to pay for 30 years of subsidies to the new subway line what is projected to be a money loser for the next 25 years).

There is nothing for Toronto in a 905 belt extension of the subway to serve York U. This will not add to the TTC's capacity, this will not address overcrowding issues or capacity issues on the TTC, this will not contribute to any Kyoto-style reduction in greenhouse gases in Toronto.

It is just a typical political 'goodie' for voters. It is not good transit planning and the TTC didn't ask for this subway line.

So, the money isn't really going to help Toronto at all! (As if there is a difference between Mississauga and Toronto.)

Harper may be surprised to learn that his polling numbers won't move much.

[Mad_Michael]

Or how about this argument:

That election goodie that Harper & McGuinty announced yesterday was targeted to the 905 belt voters, not Toronto voters. It is actually a slap in the face to Toronto voters (who will be on the hook to pay for 30 years of subsidies to the new subway line what is projected to be a money loser for the next 25 years).

There is nothing for Toronto in a 905 belt extension of the subway to serve York U. This will not add to the TTC's capacity, this will not address overcrowding issues or capacity issues on the TTC, this will not contribute to any Kyoto-style reduction in greenhouse gases in Toronto.

It is just a typical political 'goodie' for voters. It is not good transit planning and the TTC didn't ask for this subway line.

So, the money isn't really going to help Toronto at all! (As if there is a difference between Mississauga and Toronto.)

Harper may be surprised to learn that his polling numbers won't move much.

Please. Mississauga is 30 miles away from where they are planning to build this subway. The proposed Spadina/YorkU line extension cuts through some cow fields in Vaughan Townshipn (which is York Region) - a long way from Mississauga (which is Peel Region).

And from any analysis of electoral politics, 905 and Toronto are rather different. The differences are reducing over time (905 is becoming more like 416 in vote habits), but as it stands, the 905 belt reacts slightly differently than Toronto does.

[White Doors]

Im normally a small government etc guy but I do think that transit infrastructure needs to be upgraded in this country.

For example, if we could afford it i would be all for a high speed rail link for the Montreal, Ottawa to Windsor corridor. It would reduce pollution by helping alleviate congestion. It would improve efficiency of business and persons. It would help alleviate airport congesiton etc etc.

Although it would never benefit me personally I think it would be great for the country. It would improve our competitiveness.

Imagine that - not worrying about what this means to ME.

How un-Canadian of me.

[na85]

high speed rail link

That's a good idea.

[Mad_Michael]

high speed rail link

That's a good idea.

The actual TTC wishlist for capital network expansions included this (amongst a half-dozen other projects). All of these projects are now canceled in order to fun Harper/McGuinty's election boondoggle subway line.

It is important to note that this (almost useless) subway extension will do NOTHING to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the GTA, nor will it increase the TTC's actual capacity, nor will it do anything to reduce the massive level of TTC congestion that is presently due to overcrowding.

This is critically important given that the TTC main subway line is already running at maximum capacity. Toronto is growing very steadily, adding some 50,000 people per year. We need a solution to this capacity issue and the Spadina/YorkU extension does absolutely nothing for this.

[Mad_Michael]

Im normally a small government etc guy but I do think that transit infrastructure needs to be upgraded in this country.

For example, if we could afford it i would be all for a high speed rail link for the Montreal, Ottawa to Windsor corridor. It would reduce pollution by helping alleviate congestion. It would improve efficiency of business and persons. It would help alleviate airport congesiton etc etc.

This option is totally off the table.

The idea was floated some 15 years ago for a high-speed rail link between Windsor and Quebec City.

Unfortunately, permanent political instability in Quebec was identified as the key stumbling block to private sector interest/investment in this project.

Thus, unless it is 100% funded and operated by the Federal Government, it ain't going to happen.

[na85]

The actual TTC wishlist for capital network expansions included this (amongst a half-dozen other projects). All of these projects are now canceled in order to fun Harper/McGuinty's election boondoggle subway line.

It is important to note that this (almost useless) subway extension will do NOTHING to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the GTA, nor will it increase the TTC's actual capacity, nor will it do anything to reduce the massive level of TTC congestion that is presently due to overcrowding.

This is critically important given that the TTC main subway line is already running at maximum capacity. Toronto is growing very steadily, adding some 50,000 people per year. We need a solution to this capacity issue and the Spadina/YorkU extension does absolutely nothing for this.

It's not just the subway that's at capacity either. Apparently the gardiner expressway (an elevated highway, for non torontonians) was not designed with this many cars in mind. According to the journal I read, the sheer weight of the vehicles on it is damaging the support structure.

[Mad_Michael]

The actual TTC wishlist for capital network expansions included this (amongst a half-dozen other projects). All of these projects are now canceled in order to fun Harper/McGuinty's election boondoggle subway line.

It is important to note that this (almost useless) subway extension will do NOTHING to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the GTA, nor will it increase the TTC's actual capacity, nor will it do anything to reduce the massive level of TTC congestion that is presently due to overcrowding.

This is critically important given that the TTC main subway line is already running at maximum capacity. Toronto is growing very steadily, adding some 50,000 people per year. We need a solution to this capacity issue and the Spadina/YorkU extension does absolutely nothing for this.

It's not just the subway that's at capacity either. Apparently the gardiner expressway (an elevated highway, for non torontonians) was not designed with this many cars in mind. According to the journal I read, the sheer weight of the vehicles on it is damaging the support structure.

Let the 905 belt pay for their commute.

The Gardiner Expressway/QEW serves the purpose of subsidizing property values in the outer suburbs at the expense of the city. The city has the honour of paying for the pleasure.

The Gardiner ought to be bulldozed entirely. When it comes to highways, demand will match maximum capacity no matter what.

[White Doors]

Im normally a small government etc guy but I do think that transit infrastructure needs to be upgraded in this country.

For example, if we could afford it i would be all for a high speed rail link for the Montreal, Ottawa to Windsor corridor. It would reduce pollution by helping alleviate congestion. It would improve efficiency of business and persons. It would help alleviate airport congesiton etc etc.

This option is totally off the table.

The idea was floated some 15 years ago for a high-speed rail link between Windsor and Quebec City.

Unfortunately, permanent political instability in Quebec was identified as the key stumbling block to private sector interest/investment in this project.

Thus, unless it is 100% funded and operated by the Federal Government, it ain't going to happen.

Perhaps another reason to support it? decrease of seperatist sentiment?

With more travel betwen the provinces it just may help people undersntad eich other more?

nice one! thanks

[Keepitsimple]

Sure it wins some votes - but remember, all these "projects" are actually initiated by the cities and their province - then they go to Ottawa to ask for co-funding. They are not Ottawa's idea so if people don't like the choice of projects, they can yell at the province. With the exception of the Eco-Trust initiatives, the Federal money for the GTA projects was included in the last budget. Harper and the Conservatives are respecting the Constitution - the Provinces are responsible for the cities. Having said that, Ottawa is respnsible for many of the "levers" that affect our economy - mostly through the budgeting process (taxation) and the Bank of Canada. As such, there is recognition that large cities are the engines of the economy - so from that point of view, Ottawa has a vested interest in helping the cities to succeed. But.....if the only thing that Ottawa did was give money to the provinces, there would be no guarantee that the money would be properly spent. That's why the co-funding approach works.

We won't know if the timing was tied to an election until we know if there will be an election. Personally, I think Harper is creating an environment that will make it difficult for the opposition to vote against the upcoming budget and in general, with the Liberals plummeting in the polls, he should be able to effectively govern for sometime. So I wouldn't count on an election soon - it doesn't make any sense until such time as the Conservatives are guaranteed a majority.

[Mad_Michael]

Sure it wins some votes - but remember, all these "projects" are actually initiated by the cities and their province - then they go to Ottawa to ask for co-funding. They are not Ottawa's idea so if people don't like the choice of projects, they can yell at the province. With the exception of the Eco-Trust initiatives, the Federal money for the GTA projects was included in the last budget. Harper and the Conservatives are respecting the Constitution - the Provinces are responsible for the cities. Having said that, Ottawa is respnsible for many of the "levers" that affect our economy - mostly through the budgeting process (taxation) and the Bank of Canada. As such, there is recognition that large cities are the engines of the economy - so from that point of view, Ottawa has a vested interest in helping the cities to succeed. But.....if the only thing that Ottawa did was give money to the provinces, there would be no guarantee that the money would be properly spent. That's why the co-funding approach works.

We won't know if the timing was tied to an election until we know if there will be an election. Personally, I think Harper is creating an environment that will make it difficult for the opposition to vote against the upcoming budget and in general, with the Liberals plummeting in the polls, he should be able to effectively govern for sometime. So I wouldn't count on an election soon - it doesn't make any sense until such time as the Conservatives are guaranteed a majority.

Please identify your source for your assertion that Toronto or the TTC asked for this Spadina/YorkU subway extension.

It is not supported by Toronto's official plan. Indeed, this Spadina/YorkU subway extension is not even mentioned in Toronto's official plan for transit.

However, it is to be noted that there are some political ridings in the neighbourhood of the Spadina/YorkU extension that are of strong interest to the Federal Conservatives and also the Ontario Liberals - who are both likely to go to an election within the next 12 months.

So, please tell me more about how Toronto chose this Spadina subway extension and how the Feds are entirely not involved in choosing such projects.

[Keepitsimple]

Sure it wins some votes - but remember, all these "projects" are actually initiated by the cities and their province - then they go to Ottawa to ask for co-funding. They are not Ottawa's idea so if people don't like the choice of projects, they can yell at the province. With the exception of the Eco-Trust initiatives, the Federal money for the GTA projects was included in the last budget. Harper and the Conservatives are respecting the Constitution - the Provinces are responsible for the cities. Having said that, Ottawa is respnsible for many of the "levers" that affect our economy - mostly through the budgeting process (taxation) and the Bank of Canada. As such, there is recognition that large cities are the engines of the economy - so from that point of view, Ottawa has a vested interest in helping the cities to succeed. But.....if the only thing that Ottawa did was give money to the provinces, there would be no guarantee that the money would be properly spent. That's why the co-funding approach works.

We won't know if the timing was tied to an election until we know if there will be an election. Personally, I think Harper is creating an environment that will make it difficult for the opposition to vote against the upcoming budget and in general, with the Liberals plummeting in the polls, he should be able to effectively govern for sometime. So I wouldn't count on an election soon - it doesn't make any sense until such time as the Conservatives are guaranteed a majority.

Please identify your source for your assertion that Toronto or the TTC asked for this Spadina/YorkU subway extension.

It is not supported by Toronto's official plan. Indeed, this Spadina/YorkU subway extension is not even mentioned in Toronto's official plan for transit.

However, it is to be noted that there are some political ridings in the neighbourhood of the Spadina/YorkU extension that are of strong interest to the Federal Conservatives and also the Ontario Liberals - who are both likely to go to an election within the next 12 months.

So, please tell me more about how Toronto chose this Spadina subway extension and how the Feds are entirely not involved in choosing such projects.

I live in the GTA. The Ontario government set aside their funding in their last budget. The City of Toronto and the Region of York also did the same. This was all very public and is part of a much larger "Move Ontario" initiative. At that time, there was no guarantee that Ottawa would chip in. I guess it was their way of putting pressure on Ottawa. Here's a couple of links with the details:

OTTAWA–The final piece of the puzzle is in place to build the first-ever subway line beyond the border of Toronto into York Region, with a stop at York University, the Star has learned.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Premier Dalton McGuinty will announce next week that the federal government will pump $697 million into the plan to extend the Spadina subway from Downsview station. The province and the municipalities of Toronto and York have already committed money.

Link: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/187860

Here's a link to an Ontario Government site that has information on their "Move Ontario" plan, funding for which was included in their last budget. In addition to the subway, you'll find several other projects that were initiated by Ontario and municipalities that are now being co-funded by Ottawa.

Link: http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GONE/2006/...2%8C%A9=_e.html

...Snip

Ontario's Investment in York Region Transit:

- Up to $50 million for the first phase of York Region's Viva rapid

transit initiative in four heavily travelled corridors: Yonge Street,

Highway 7, Vaughan North-South, and Markham North-South providing

better connections to the TTC and Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan and

Newmarket on new faster, modern and comfortable buses

- $670 million under Move Ontario to Toronto and York Region, enabling

them to extend the Spadina Subway to the Vaughan Corporate Centre at

Highway 7

- Over $9.3 million in a one-time funding that York can use to support

2006 municipal bus orders - part of the $114 million to municipalities

announced in the 2006 Ontario Budget

- Nearly $9.3 million in provincial gas tax funding in the second year

of the program, up from $5.6 million last year

- $7.1 million under the 2005 Ontario Transit Vehicle Program to provide

funding to help expand, renew and refurbish their transit fleet

- $6.6 million in transit expansion funding to support several

short-term improvements for inter-regional transit initiatives:

expansion buses, software upgrades, and a new bus bay.

In addition, the McGuinty government has:

- Introduced legislation to create the Greater Toronto Transportation

Authority that will make commuting easier for people in the GTA and

Hamilton

- Invested $1 billion in GO capital expansion, including new GO stations

to improve access to GO services (funding partnership with other

levels of government)

- Provided municipalities with $232 million in gas tax funding for

2005/06 to improve service and expand ridership

- Introduced an integrated fare card system that will enable commuters

to travel on public transit from Durham to Hamilton using a single

fare card when implemented

- Opened Ontario's first-ever High Occupancy Vehicle lanes on 400 series

highways

- Opened bus bypass shoulders to allow buses to move freely during times

of congestion

- Provided funding to replace, refurbish and expand municipal bus

fleets.

Link: http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GONE/2006/...2%8C%A9=_e.html

[Mad_Michael]

You've pretty much proven that the Spadina/York U subway extension originates with the Province of Ontario, not Toronto, as I have stated.

I repeat, this subway extension is not compatible with Toronto's Official Plan, does not produce any reduction in greenhouse gases, does not reduce congestion on the TTC and does not add any capacity to the TTC.

Also, because this subway extension is not projected to produce enough ridership to pay for itself for at least 15-20, this means Toronto taxpayers are on the hook to pay for the operating subsidies for decades to come.

Btw, the largest and most substantive study of expanding the subway in Toronto rated three possible lines. The Spadina/YorkU line was rated the weakest of the three proposed lines, with the projection of several decades before this line could possibly earn enough fares to cover its own operating expenses. In case you are curious, the Sheppard line was consider the 2nd weakest proposal for the same reasons.

Fact is, this new subway line is going to be built to serve cow fields and suburban housing subdivisions (a group of people for whom public transit is the least prefered option). This is no where near the density needed to pay the operating expense of running the subway system.

Needless to say, the one proposed subway line (Keele/CNE/Pape) that was recommended based upon its contribution to increased capacity, decreased congestion in the core (where it is most congested) and the ability of ridership fares to cover operating expenses immediately upon opening the line. Also, this is the ONLY subway addition that would have a contribution to reducing greenhouse gases in the GTA. This is the only subway extension that is compatible with the goals of Toronto's official plan.

Needless to say, this line is very unlikely to ever be built since it doesn't interest the 905 zone to whom our Federal and Provincial governments depend upon for voting support.

[Keepitsimple]

You've pretty much proven that the Spadina/York U subway extension originates with the Province of Ontario, not Toronto, as I have stated.

I repeat, this subway extension is not compatible with Toronto's Official Plan, does not produce any reduction in greenhouse gases, does not reduce congestion on the TTC and does not add any capacity to the TTC.

Also, because this subway extension is not projected to produce enough ridership to pay for itself for at least 15-20, this means Toronto taxpayers are on the hook to pay for the operating subsidies for decades to come.

Btw, the largest and most substantive study of expanding the subway in Toronto rated three possible lines. The Spadina/YorkU line was rated the weakest of the three proposed lines, with the projection of several decades before this line could possibly earn enough fares to cover its own operating expenses. In case you are curious, the Sheppard line was consider the 2nd weakest proposal for the same reasons.

Fact is, this new subway line is going to be built to serve cow fields and suburban housing subdivisions (a group of people for whom public transit is the least prefered option). This is no where near the density needed to pay the operating expense of running the subway system.

Needless to say, the one proposed subway line (Keele/CNE/Pape) that was recommended based upon its contribution to increased capacity, decreased congestion in the core (where it is most congested) and the ability of ridership fares to cover operating expenses immediately upon opening the line. Also, this is the ONLY subway addition that would have a contribution to reducing greenhouse gases in the GTA. This is the only subway extension that is compatible with the goals of Toronto's official plan.

Needless to say, this line is very unlikely to ever be built since it doesn't interest the 905 zone to whom our Federal and Provincial governments depend upon for voting support.

All I said was that the city of Toronto, the Municipality of York and the Province of Ontario ponied up money for this about a year ago. Who knows why it was not in Toronto's "official" plan. Maybe they thought that Ottawa would never cough up the money. This thread started off accusing Ottawa of just throwing money at the GTA to buy votes. What I'm informing people is that this is a strategic investment that fits glove-in-hand with the province's "Move Ontario" initiative.

You seem to have a beef. If so, it should be directed at Mayor Miller. If Toronto's "official plan" doesn't have the subway extension - then you should ask Miller why he set aside the funding.

[guyser]

Again, Toronto generates far more tax revenue for Ottawa than the oil industry. The oil industry may be the most important to you but it's not nearly as important to the country as you imagine. In fact, the economy of Toronto + suburbs is larger than that of Alberta (oil industry included). Don't even begin to imagine that the mass transit line funding for TO is anything but a small fraction of the taxes leaving TO to be spend elsewhere that is coming back. Your oil industry doesn't factor into this picture at all.

And not to forget the simple fact that my childhood neighbourhood (Etobicoke ) has a population of

604,000.....not counting the rest of the city as it was too large to even think about.

Calgary- 991,000

Edmonton- 712,000

......and I wonder if Ontario is propped up by the oil industry and Alberta. I think not.

What happened Geoffrey, did 905 ers throw you out?

[guyser]

then you should ask Miller why he set aside the funding.

...oh man do we have to have his name in any thread? The biggest idiot to be mayor in a long time if forever

[geoffrey]

high speed rail link

That's a good idea.

Let the users pay for it.

What happened Geoffrey, did 905 ers throw you out?

My parents moved here when I was a teenager for better opportunity, which they got. I make far more than I ever would in Toronto... I have lots of friends going to school back there making $10 an hour doing clerical work with the same education I have... it's very sad looking at the state of affairs in Eastern Canada.

Look at an Ontario business or engineering grad class and see where they are taking jobs. In Alberta, the opportunities are far far greater. I'm suprised more people don't take that up.

I wouldn't move back to the 905 or to Ontario in general in the foreseeable future. It's a stagnant place, a terrible place to make your name. I'll take my inflated salary, weekends in the Rockies and clean(er) air anyday. Why would I trade that for 1/2 of the money, a much faster pace of work and living without any reward, no real wilderness nearby and thick smog.

No sir, I didn't get kicked out, I'd never go back.

[guyser]

My parents moved here when I was a teenager for better opportunity, which they got. I make far more than I ever would in Toronto... I have lots of friends going to school back there making $10 an hour doing clerical work with the same education I have... it's very sad looking at the state of affairs in Eastern Canada.

I wouldn't move back to the 905 or to Ontario in general in the foreseeable future. It's a stagnant place, a terrible place to make your name. I'll take my inflated salary, weekends in the Rockies and clean(er) air anyday. Why would I trade that for 1/2 of the money, a much faster pace of work and living without any reward, no real wilderness nearby and thick smog.

No sir, I didn't get kicked out, I'd never go back.

Must I remind you that you were shown that the East is NOT stagnant ? Go ahead and read in an earlier post where you were shown to spout erroneous notions.

I have no problem with you wanting to live in Alta. Half my family tree is out there....

1/2 the money ?

A terrible place to make your name? About the only thing I can think of to agree with that is if you are in the oil industry. Other than that , you are grossly mistaken.

No real wilderness ? I can find that out my back door at the cottage. And it is the same drive time as you have. Perhaps you meant mountains...

Thick smog.....yea well we do get that. That is what happens when you live north of the Ohio valley and in the middle of a strong economic base.

Look, Alberta is 3.1M people, Toronto is 4.6M. If it were all that you say it is, the utopia you espouse , methinks those numbers might be a bit more even. And realize of courae that I am comparing a city to a province.

I am not going to bash Alta because I have fond memories of visits and staying there, but it does seem you harbour some anger toward the east for moving out west, that all.

[geoffrey]

A terrible place to make your name? About the only thing I can think of to agree with that is if you are in the oil industry. Other than that , you are grossly mistaken.

I am not employed but anything related to oil and gas... in fact, the industry I'm employed by exists everywhere in the world. As does my

No real wilderness ? I can find that out my back door at the cottage. And it is the same drive time as you have. Perhaps you meant mountains...

If you've got a highway 20 metres away it's not wilderness. I've trekked, canoed and cycled Northern Ontario, which I love. But from the Toronto area, there isn't anywhere where you can go climb a pitch of rock or ride 30-40km of wilderness mountain bike trail within 30 minutes of your house. I go climb and ride after work in the summer with the longer days... Kananaksis park boundaries are 30 minutes from my driveway. Not that this is even close to the topic at hand, but Calgary one ups anywhere in Canada with the possible exception of Vancouver for real recreational opportunity.

Thick smog.....yea well we do get that. That is what happens when you live north of the Ohio valley and in the middle of a strong economic base.

Could have fooled me, we don't have any smog days here.

Look, Alberta is 3.1M people, Toronto is 4.6M. If it were all that you say it is, the utopia you espouse , methinks those numbers might be a bit more even. And realize of courae that I am comparing a city to a province.

It's unfair to compare a city to a province. A city doesn't have rural communities to bring down the living standards and average incomes. That said, Alberta still out earns and out GDP per capitas Ontario 3:2.

I am not going to bash Alta because I have fond memories of visits and staying there, but it does seem you harbour some anger toward the east for moving out west, that all.

Nah, no anger. I just don't think we get as good a deal as Ontario does, this billion dollar infrastructure fun proposed by Harper is a good example. It's unjustified. We need it more right now.

Ontario does have some common ground with Alberta. They also contribute to the country. They've got one decent hockey team (no, it's not the Leafs). We share a mutual disgust for the deal Quebec gets from Ottawa. Lots of common ground.

[blueblood]

If you've got a highway 20 metres away it's not wilderness. I've trekked, canoed and cycled Northern Ontario, which I love. But from the Toronto area, there isn't anywhere where you can go climb a pitch of rock or ride 30-40km of wilderness mountain bike trail within 30 minutes of your house. I go climb and ride after work in the summer with the longer days... Kananaksis park boundaries are 30 minutes from my driveway. Not that this is even close to the topic at hand, but Calgary one ups anywhere in Canada with the possible exception of Vancouver for real recreational opportunity

I think I have you both hooped as far as wildernss goes.

Seriously if Ontario was such a great powerhouse, why oh why do people decide to go out west for high paying work. I have not heard of a person that I know going out east except to catch a Leafs game. I live smack in the middle of AB and T.O. If Southern Ontario is that great why aren't they attracting labour from MB???