Will people of Toronto sell their votes

[Topaz]

Harper is giving the Ontario Liberals a good shot in the arm as far as the elctions go.( I wonder what John Tory is thinking) The BILLION $$$ for transportation will probably have no trouble passing in Parliament. The question is, will the voters of Ontario still vote for Harper and the Ontario Libs??? One has to wonder if its was Rona who was against the environment instead of Harper OR here he is again wanting something really bad, a majority government and spend our money to do it. I just wonder how much money Harper is spending. There just one problem, how is Harper going to get the support of "small town Ontario". I will say Harper is smart by offering this and I'm sure Layton, who lives in TO will vote for it!! I rather have what Martin had offered that Layton voted against it. There was something for everyone in the that budget. So far all I see for me is 1.00 something off my groceries because of the GST tax reduction.

[Canadian Blue]

Yeah, the GST tax cut was a waste, and it really didn't have much of an effect on my life.

[Canuck E Stan]

Yeah, the GST tax cut was a waste, and it really didn't have much of an effect on my life.

Yes, it's all about you.

[August1991]

This subsidy amounts to $35 from each Canadian and the $1 billion is spread over 7 or 8 years.

IMV, Harper should have cut taxes and then let the Ontario government decide whether to subsidize Toronto's transit system. After all, these improvements will increase the property values of Torontonians. They are the wants to benefit directly from this.

Of course, politically, one can imagine the conversation around the Cabinet table. Who are the non-Torontonians going to vote for?

Harper got his headline with the sexy word "billion".

I would expect that Montreal and Vancouver will be soon on the PM's schedule.

[jdobbin]

This subsidy amounts to $35 from each Canadian and the $1 billion is spread over 7 or 8 years.

IMV, Harper should have cut taxes and then let the Ontario government decide whether to subsidize Toronto's transit system. After all, these improvements will increase the property values of Torontonians. They are the wants to benefit directly from this.

Of course, politically, one can imagine the conversation around the Cabinet table. Who are the non-Torontonians going to vote for?

Harper got his headline with the sexy word "billion".

I would expect that Montreal and Vancouver will be soon on the PM's schedule.

There are few things a federal government can do that creates more jobs than infrastructure.

You call it a subsidy. I call it an investment. It will be good at easing congestion on many roads. It will be good for the environment. It will be good for job creation. It will be good for the economy.

A tax cut is not an investment in infrastructure. A federal tax cut is not a national strategy on infrastructure and the environment.

One can imagine if Eisenhower had been shortsighted when he created the Interstate highway program. At one point, it took him 62 days to run a military convoy from one coast to the other. Now, every city over 50,000 is connected to the Interstate. The money invested has paid off in the trillions for the U.S. economy.

Urban transit is something that all levels of government need to be involved in. It is a national strategy and that requires national leadership.

A few more announcements like this and Harper might win with a landslide and actually have done the country some good.

[geoffrey]

There are few things a federal government can do that creates more jobs than infrastructure.

We don't need to create jobs. We need to motivate people to fill the bazillion jobs out here already open. Cutting all abled bodied people off welfare would be a start. Then again, that usually doesn't get votes.

[jdobbin]

We don't need to create jobs. We need to motivate people to fill the bazillion jobs out here already open. Cutting all abled bodied people off welfare would be a start. Then again, that usually doesn't get votes.

Given that this is a long term project and is labour intensive, it creates jobs. However, it isn't the primary reason the project gets done. The Interstate was not about jobs but investing in the linking the country for business. Public transit is an investment in much the same.

As far as your argument goes on welfare, it is a separate issue from public transit.

[August1991]

There are few things a federal government can do that creates more jobs than infrastructure.

Every dollar collected in taxes is one dollar not spent by taxpayers. You seem to think that only government spending creates jobs. How many jobs are lost because of taxes? And since when is job creation a sensible measure of the benefits of an economic policy?

Dobbin, taken to its logical conclusion, your argument implies that if the government taxed us 100%, and then used the money for infrastructure, we could create jobs for all and we'd all be rich.

One can imagine if Eisenhower had been shortsighted when he created the Interstate highway program. At one point, it took him 62 days to run a military convoy from one coast to the other. Now, every city over 50,000 is connected to the Interstate. The money invested has paid off in the trillions for the U.S. economy.

One coast to another? Exactly. That was of interest to all Americans. From what I gather, this federal money will be used to add about four stations to one of Toronto's metro lines.

Urban transit is something that all levels of government need to be involved in. It is a national strategy and that requires national leadership.

Why should the federal government get involved?

This transit scheme will increase property values along its route. This is a subsidy from everyone in Canada to those property owners.

----

If the Ontario government wants to do this, let it raise its own taxes and subsidize this. If the federal government has $1 billion to give to Toronto, then it's raising $1 billion too much in taxes. Under the Constitution, municipal affairs are in provincial jurisdiction.

[jdobbin]

Every dollar collected in taxes is one dollar not spent. You seem to think that only government spending creates jobs. How many jobs are lost because of taxes?

One coast to another? Exactly. That was of interest to all Americans.

Why should the federal government get involved?

This transit scheme will increase property values along its route. This is a subsidy from everyone in Canada to those property owners.

----

If the Ontario government wants to do this, let it raise its own taxes and subsidize this. If the federal government has $1 billion to give to Toronto, then it's raising $1 billion too much in taxes. Under the Constitution, municipal affairs are in provincial jurisdiction.

I don't think that government spending is the only way to create jobs. Properly used, government spending helps to create the dynamics for business and individuals to save money and make money.

Time wasted navigating Canada's highways and city roads costs billions of dollars. Dollars lost in taxation and revenue for Canadian people, business and governments.

What you call subsidy, I call investment. You're thinking is provincial. A national strategy on transportation requires national leadership.

Harper is making the right choice here. What do you want to do? Defeat him on this?

[geoffrey]

It's not a federal area of jurisdiction. For someone looking to curb the Federal government's power, Harper has a funny way of showing it.

[gc1765]

It's not a federal area of jurisdiction. For someone looking to curb the Federal government's power, Harper has a funny way of showing it.

Good point.

Oh well, I'm just glad that more money is going to transit, hopefully Vancouver will get some too. I don't really care too much who's paying for it.

[geoffrey]

Why doesn't he put some money into Alberta oil sands, a billion bucks would sure go along way to clean things up and build some safer roads to and from. Or how about Calgary, a city with it's infrastructure stretched to the max and unable to build more because the RoC has some idea that they can sit on welfare while we suffer a labour crunch.

Why Toronto? They have better roads than we do, less growth and way more unemployed people that can labour for lower fees.

Oh Harper, how you piss me off.

[na85]

If the Ontario government wants to do this, let it raise its own taxes and subsidize this. If the federal government has $1 billion to give to Toronto, then it's raising $1 billion too much in taxes. Under the Constitution, municipal affairs are in provincial jurisdiction.

It's not a federal area of jurisdiction. For someone looking to curb the Federal government's power, Harper has a funny way of showing it.

Seems to me that PM Harper is looking to bolster support in areas where he is weak. It's a good move on his part. The MP's from Toronto are obviously going to support this bill, and it'll make Harper appear less of a "Menace from the West" in the eyes of the urban GTA voter.

[jdobbin]

It's not a federal area of jurisdiction. For someone looking to curb the Federal government's power, Harper has a funny way of showing it.

I've found the federal jurisdiction is wherever the government feels it should be. Likewise, the provinces have figured they should have a say over defence policy, immigration and the international trade.

If Ontario would rather have a tax cut (or any other province for that matter), refuse the money. Otherwise, by accepting it, they bow to federal involvement.

[jdobbin]

Why doesn't he put some money into Alberta oil sands, a billion bucks would sure go along way to clean things up and build some safer roads to and from. Or how about Calgary, a city with it's infrastructure stretched to the max and unable to build more because the RoC has some idea that they can sit on welfare while we suffer a labour crunch.

Why Toronto? They have better roads than we do, less growth and way more unemployed people that can labour for lower fees.

Oh Harper, how you piss me off.

There are a lot of subsidies for the oil industry now. More than a mass transit line in Toronto to be sure.

[geoffrey]

There are a lot of subsidies for the oil industry now. More than a mass transit line in Toronto to be sure.

Perhaps it's because the oil industry is paying for that Toronto transit line. Without it, Canada's growth would be dead stagnant. Be careful of killing the golden goose, most oil related government revenues go to Ottawa, not Edmonton. Canada can't enjoy today's standard of social programs without Alberta. Harper couldn't build Toronto's transit system up without oil.

The least Ottawa could do is twin the road from Edmonton to Ft. McMurray. Costs far less than a fancy Toronto transit upgrade and would save the lives of the many that die needlessly there funding that line in Toronto.

[Canadian Blue]

Yes, it's all about you.

No, I'd rather have that money put towards something useful.

[blueblood]

How long is Fort McMurray going to be viable though. Is it self sufficient? What about when the booms over? I've seen my share of wasted paved roads gone to crap. Fort Mac is pretty out of the way too. I'd be wanting to invest in some alternate industries there, maybe moving some offices there. So far from what i've heard it's skidsville.

Dare I say a private company if it wanted to twin the road themselves and charge a toll to offset the costs. Mind you that would be a pretty good job doing that. I'm guessing the starting wage there would be about 20-30 bucks an hour.

[jdobbin]

Perhaps it's because the oil industry is paying for that Toronto transit line. Without it, Canada's growth would be dead stagnant. Be careful of killing the golden goose, most oil related government revenues go to Ottawa, not Edmonton. Canada can't enjoy today's standard of social programs without Alberta. Harper couldn't build Toronto's transit system up without oil.

The least Ottawa could do is twin the road from Edmonton to Ft. McMurray. Costs far less than a fancy Toronto transit upgrade and would save the lives of the many that die needlessly there funding that line in Toronto.

I'd say that city of Toronto produces in goods and service a huge amount of wealth in Canada. It isn't always about oil.

Alberta's oil industry needs Toronto's banks and much as Toronto needs oil.

[geoffrey]

How long is Fort McMurray going to be viable though. Is it self sufficient? What about when the booms over? I've seen my share of wasted paved roads gone to crap. Fort Mac is pretty out of the way too. I'd be wanting to invest in some alternate industries there, maybe moving some offices there. So far from what i've heard it's skidsville.

The boom won't be over in the forseeable future. Oil demand is increasing and countries willing to supply the US are few and far between. Our oil has a huge advantage due to proximity to the key processors in the US midwest. They'll always buy Albertan oil first. Everyday the oil sands become more efficient and cost effective, we see it in rising profits.

Oilsands development will taper off at about $30 a barrel, but it's profitable above $20 (depending on natural gas prices). Everyday those numbers become lower (in real terms, maybe not nominally). No one in the entire world is forcasting either of those prices over the next 20 years.

By then, Calgary will have more and more of the financial power that Toronto is bleeding and the switch for us to non-resource dependancy will be swift and much more painless.

Remember, the end of the boom doesn't mean 100% drop the next day, it's like 2 or 3% decrease over a few years. No biggy.

That is, unless we are attacked by Ottawa on the issue... in which case, we should just pack up and leave. Become the tax haven of the North that we should be.

Dare I say a private company if it wanted to twin the road themselves and charge a toll to offset the costs. Mind you that would be a pretty good job doing that. I'm guessing the starting wage there would be about 20-30 bucks an hour.

No point in even trying. You can't get a house built within a year because there is simply no one to build. There is no working people left in Alberta. Calgary's unemployment rate is BELOW what was considered to be the minimum rate of 3%... that means huge shortage. Skilled tradespeople to build a road up North are going to run you $100-150 an hour... at least what the in-demand low skilled rig pigs get in the same area.

Building a road isn't fun, these people will go work the rigs for that money instead if your not willing to pay.

Alberta's oil industry needs Toronto's banks and much as Toronto needs oil.

Not really. Calgary has plenty of investment banks, and is normally home of the second big office of most of the major banks (Montreal being the exception for a few). BNS (ScotiaBank), the 3rd largest bank in Canada and the major importer of foreign capital, is actually head officed in Calgary, not Toronto. Fancy that. People go where the money is.

That's a big eastern myth that isn't really valid anymore. Geography is irrelevant with banking anyways.

There has been a major shift in that dependancy. It makes more sense for the government to improve the infrastruture of those provinces willing to adapt and grow then funnel money into a economically collapsing area. Why collapse both areas? Not to mention it will put more strain on the skilled workers from Ontario that Alberta needs.

[jdobbin]

Not really. Calgary has plenty of investment banks, and is normally home of the second big office of most of the major banks (Montreal being the exception for a few). BNS (ScotiaBank), the 3rd largest bank in Canada and the major importer of foreign capital, is actually head officed in Calgary, not Toronto. Fancy that. People go where the money is.

That's a big eastern myth that isn't really valid anymore. Geography is irrelevant with banking anyways.

There has been a major shift in that dependancy. It makes more sense for the government to improve the infrastruture of those provinces willing to adapt and grow then funnel money into a economically collapsing area. Why collapse both areas? Not to mention it will put more strain on the skilled workers from Ontario that Alberta needs.

The President of the Bank of Nova Scotia is based in Calgary? Do you have a citation for that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Nova_Scotia

At any rate, my argument that Toronto produces a huge amount of goods and services remains. If the oil industry deserves billions in subsidies, why not Toronto?

[geoffrey]

The President of the Bank of Nova Scotia is based in Calgary. Do you have a citation for that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Nova_Scotia

http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com/...ations_20yr.pdf in 1996 is where I got that information just so you know I wasn't just making things up, but at this point, I'll say that your right on that one, it appears to be a regional head office.

At any rate, my argument that Toronto produces a huge amount of goods and services remains. If the oil industry deserves billions in subsidies, why not Toronto?

Because Toronto is stagnant, not producing any growth. A new way for bankers to get to work isn't going to increase our wealth as a nation. Expanded trucking ability into Fort McMurray will. My ideal choice would be for Ottawa to cut taxes and let provinces raise their own revenue to meet their responsibilities.

[August1991]

Seems to me that PM Harper is looking to bolster support in areas where he is weak. It's a good move on his part. The MP's from Toronto are obviously going to support this bill, and it'll make Harper appear less of a "Menace from the West" in the eyes of the urban GTA voter.

Exactly.

This is all about electoral politics and it has nothing to do with bolstering the wealth of Canada.

I have no qualms with a government building, operating and maintaining a city transit system. I just don't think a federal government should be involved in such decisions. The only reason Harper is doing this is because he thinks he can get some votes out of it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't work. Torontonians will still think of Harper and his party as rural bigots and they'll likely say this move was too little, too late and opportunistic. Other cities/regions will complain that Toronto "got more".

But heck. What do I know. Harper is presumably PM because he can judge these things.

----

I could possibly agree with putting federal money into lowering GHG emissions but I don't know if this is the way to do it. (GHG emissions are, as their name implies, global. Only the federal government can deal with this although it could set and enforce provincial objectives.)

The money for Ontario includes its $586-million per capita share of a $1.5-billion fund to help the provinces reduce greenhouse gases, the sources said. Mr. Harper allocated the first $350-million from the Canada EcoTrust Fund to Quebec last month.

...

Mr. McGuinty plans to use the money from the federal EcoTrust fund for the province's climate-change plan, to be unveiled in late April, the government sources said.

None of the funding will be earmarked for retrofitting the province's coal-fired electricity plants with up-to-date pollution-control equipment, government and industry sources said.

The coal plants are the worst polluters in the province and they are expected to be a major issue in the provincial election. In the 2003 campaign, Mr. McGuinty promised to close the plants by this year. But he now says the plants will remain open until 2014.

G & M

[na85]

I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't work. Torontonians will still think of Harper and his party as rural bigots and they'll likely say this move was too little, too late and opportunistic.

Quite possibly. At the very least it shows Harper knows he needs to improve his standing in the T-dot if he wants a majority next election.

None of the funding will be earmarked for retrofitting the province's coal-fired electricity plants with up-to-date pollution-control equipment, government and industry sources said.

The coal plants are the worst polluters in the province and they are expected to be a major issue in the provincial election. In the 2003 campaign, Mr. McGuinty promised to close the plants by this year. But he now says the plants will remain open until 2014.

This is really disappointing news to hear.

[Saturn]

There are few things a federal government can do that creates more jobs than infrastructure.

We don't need to create jobs. We need to motivate people to fill the bazillion jobs out here already open. Cutting all abled bodied people off welfare would be a start. Then again, that usually doesn't get votes.

Cutting the 1+ hour commute to work and from work and the costs involved can motivate people to fill jobs too. Reducing commuting time means that people can work longer hours and/or spend more time resting, which can in turn increase labour supply and productivity. But nevermind, Conservative ideology dictates that forcing people to work will increase productivity. Just bring out the whip and make them walk to work if they have to.