Do you think the West can win the war?

[Topaz]

I heard an former CIA Operative who had been stationed in the Middle-East say that NATO can't win the war in Iraq or Afghanistan and that the Taliban and OBL are getting stonger in numbers and the only way to stop the bloodshed is for Rice to go to Tehran and get them on a peace mission. Now his reasoning is that Iran hold power in the region and could greatly help bring peace to the area. My question is how bad does Bush want peace?? Would he do anything to get it and save thousand of lives?? If the war doesn't stop the CIA agent said he fears the terrorist will attack the Americans in Europe and inside the US and I'm sure inside Canada, Holland and England. You know there are at least 1 BILLION muslims or more in the world, more than there are people in the west. Think about.

[Liam]

Yes, I think the west can win the war and, in fact, I believe the west will win the war.

It depends, though, on what you mean by "the war." The armed conflict? No, I don't think we can win that. The US is not willing to wage an all-out war (massive drafting of soldiers, long-term engagement, post-war planning, etc.) in either Afghanistan or Iraq. And the US has so botched the war effort that no ally is going to add to its forces in the Middle East.

If we got smarter and saw the war for what it is, namely a battle for hearts and minds, and acted accordingly, I have no doubt we'd win. Of the billion Muslims, probably 90+% want peaceful coexistence, want their kids to have opportunities and a decent education, and healthcare for the old and young. If we presented the west as a way to get those things, the choice between becoming a suicide bomber for Osama bin Laden and true prosperity would be very stark. If we put as much effort into the battle for hearts and minds as we do into the deployment of men with guns, I have no doubt we'd win in a walk.

[jbg]

How many identically themed Afghanistan threads do we need? Is the drumbeat message that the West's freedom is unsustainable?

[ft.niagara]

How many identically themed Afghanistan threads do we need? Is the drumbeat message that the West's freedom is unsustainable?

That is not the message. Just as in Viet Nam, we can not control a country half way around the world for eons, we can not control Iraq or Afghanistan for decades either. You can only push them into a direction hopefully they would want to go. The fall of VN did not mean the end of lifestyle in the west as was predicted (domino thoery) back then. The common problem in all these areas seems to be there is no way to disarm the populace because of (un)friendly neighbors.

[jbg]

How many identically themed Afghanistan threads do we need? Is the drumbeat message that the West's freedom is unsustainable?

That is not the message. Just as in Viet Nam, we can not control a country half way around the world for eons, we can not control Iraq or Afghanistan for decades either. You can only push them into a direction hopefully they would want to go. The fall of VN did not mean the end of lifestyle in the west as was predicted (domino thoery) back then. The common problem in all these areas seems to be there is no way to disarm the populace because of (un)friendly neighbors.

To an extent you're wrong. I cannot see the Iran hostage crisis happening if people were afraid of America. The combination of the VN loss and a President scared of "killer rabbits" no doubt emboldened the malefactors of the world.

[ft.niagara]

To an extent you're wrong. I cannot see the Iran hostage crisis happening if people were afraid of America. The combination of the VN loss and a President scared of "killer rabbits" no doubt emboldened the malefactors of the world.

The US has 300 million people. In the world maybe six billion. The world including Russia and China love to hurt the US, and are not afraid of it. The US needs to be more isolationist. Let these other big boys take care of the world's bad boys.

[blueblood]

To an extent you're wrong. I cannot see the Iran hostage crisis happening if people were afraid of America. The combination of the VN loss and a President scared of "killer rabbits" no doubt emboldened the malefactors of the world.

The US has 300 million people. In the world maybe six billion. The world including Russia and China love to hurt the US, and are not afraid of it. The US needs to be more isolationist. Let these other big boys take care of the world's bad boys.

IOW a foreign policy similar to the first 30 yrs. of the 20th century?

[ft.niagara]

IOW a foreign policy similar to the first 30 yrs. of the 20th century?

You bet. The US inherited the title World Policeman. It did not seek it. Europe and Japan hardly have a military. They are skaters. They talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.

[jbg]

IOW a foreign policy similar to the first 30 yrs. of the 20th century?

You bet. The US inherited the title World Policeman. It did not seek it. Europe and Japan hardly have a military. They are skaters. They talk the talk, but do not walk the walk.

And what keeps the planes flying into buildings over there as opposed to over here?

[ft.niagara]

And what keeps the planes flying into buildings over there as opposed to over here?

Huh? The country is way over extended, and the best way of stopping terrorism is at the borders. You can punish a country (Afghanistan), but do not occupy it.... And do not nationbuild.

BTY here is an interesting site. Not Muslim based which questions the roll of Israel in 911. No Israelis were in the WTC. 80 nations, but none from Israel. Two were on the airplanes. One link is CNN's listing of casualties. It basicly is stating that the US is being used by the zionists (Israelis) as their muscle.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

[jdobbin]

And what keeps the planes flying into buildings over there as opposed to over here?

What makes you think that war in Afghanistan will prevent al Qaeda from recruiting in Pakistan do try and do that anyways?

And by your rational if planes are once again flown into buildings, will you consider war in Iraq and Afghanistan a failure?

[ft.niagara]

will you consider war in Iraq and Afghanistan a failure?

It would be a shame to say those fighting over there will have lost a war. For that reason it would have been better to find no WMD, and leave. They are tasked with nationbuilding, which is not war.

[jbg]

Huh? The country is way over extended, and the best way of stopping terrorism is at the borders. You can punish a country (Afghanistan), but do not occupy it.... And do not nationbuild.

I'm beginning to agree with you actually. Not quite there yet, though.

BTY here is an interesting site. Not Muslim based which questions the roll of Israel in 911. No Israelis were in the WTC. 80 nations, but none from Israel. Two were on the airplanes. One link is CNN's listing of casualties. It basicly is stating that the US is being used by the zionists (Israelis) as their muscle.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

I looked at that site. I'm not impressed.

If some Israelis were happy about this, it may have been from the fact that at last the rest of the world got to see what they deal with every day. Also, fix your link.

[jbg]

And what keeps the planes flying into buildings over there as opposed to over here?

What makes you think that war in Afghanistan will prevent al Qaeda from recruiting in Pakistan do try and do that anyways?

And by your rational if planes are once again flown into buildings, will you consider war in Iraq and Afghanistan a failure?

My own belief is that if the jihadis are fighting to preserve what they have over there, they have less time and personnel to fight here.

[ft.niagara]

If some Israelis were happy about this, it may have been from the fact that at last the rest of the world got to see what they deal with every day.

Coast to Coast Art Bell interview with John Lear, son of inventor of Lear Jet.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/0...s/John_Lear.htm

J - But whoever concocted 9/11, and it certainly wasn't Osama Bin Ladin, they had two objectives - one was to polarize American's opinion against Arab-Muslims and number two was to get the United States - trick the U.S. - essentially to get Osama out of Afghanistan because Osama - as bad as he was - he was shutting down all the heroin poppy fields and was causing a disastrous monetary loss to the illegal drug industry - and last year, which was a year after we went into Afghanistan, National Geographic did a special on TV, that ran for several months and documented the 500% increase in drugs flowing out of Afghanistan 'after' we went in there and eliminated Osama.

A - laughs - They actually did. I recall that. I remember that report! Um - so you are sort of charging that we went in there after Osama - after Osama to rescue the drug trade?

J - No! Well - that wasn't what 'we' thought - we were sort of tricked into doing that. We were tricked into thinking that Osama was responsible for 9/11, but to get a proper perspective on who 'did' the World Trade Center - uh - you have to understand what a magnificent feat of airmanship this was. It was 'disastrous' and was horrible for this country, but this was not accomplished by some guys who went to Florida and got some instructions on a Cessna or a Piper and this was not accomplished by somebody who had a right seat on a 727.

A - What about simulators? Flight simulators?

J - This had to be accomplished by pilots who got instruction - were taken to 'honest-to-God' Boeing 757 simulators which is - you know - the 757 and 767 the same cockpit essentially and you get the same rating and whoever concocted this whole thing knew that on a particular day that airplanes themselves could be switched because of maintenance problems and by selecting airlines that had that airplane, they had everything covered.

A - Huh! So it actually took a fair amount of skill to plow into those buildings?

J - I would say that it took about 200 or 300 hours for each pilot - and we're talking about . . .

A - 200 or 300 hours? But you mean of simulator time?

J - Of simulator time! They had to learn how to step into the cockpit - and that's a whole thing - getting into the airplane, but that's separate from that - they had to get into the cockpit and pull the circuit breaker for the transponder - sit in the pilot seat, disconnect the auto-pilot from the flight management system - turn the airplane, push the throttles all the way forward, find Manhattan - then line up on a pre-planned course - doing 10 miles a minute - they were clocked by air traffic control doing 600 miles an hour at 700 feet above the ground and fly directly into the middle the center of the World Trade Center. Now that - you know and the air races only fly 400 miles an hour and that's difficult - but to fly an airliner like the size of a 757 at 700 feet - I mean that took some skill and that took a long time to train that - probably a year.

A - That's wild (unintelligible)

J - In addition to that - hitting the Trade Center was a feat - but hitting the Pentagon was even more of a feat because when you are going that fast there is a tremendous amount of air creating this lift and as you head towards the ground, that air reacts against the wing and pushes you up, so whoever - whoever hit that - trained to hit the Pentagon at the 3rd story was highly trained because when he came towards the ground - there was a tremendous amount of lift and you would have to trim forward and push with an incredible amount of strength to not be pushed up and over the Pentagon to hit the 3rd story.

A - But what about the plane that went down that didn't make it - that was probably headed towards the Whitehouse?

J - uh - Well that was shot down by an F-16 out of a base south of New York and uh . . .

A - How can you be so sure?

J - Well because there were parts found 5 miles away - uh - because there were eye-witnesses to it being shot down - uh - there is corroborating evidence somebody who was listening to a cell phone conversation at the time this was going on who said they heard the rapid - like the ... described it as a pilot rapidly turning pages - well - that's not what was happening - that was the cannon fire hitting the fuselage and that's what accounted for - what they called the 'smoke ' in the air in the cabin - well that wasn't smoke - that was the depressurization causing the condensation.

A - Well so you are saying definitely that you feel it was shot down . . .

J - But you have to understand the governments position - #1 - they couldn't 'possibly' reveal this information because - you know - it was something they had to do - the problem was that once the passengers got control of the airplane there was no way to communicate with air traffic control or communicate with whoever was directing the attack for the airforce.

A - Now you say Osama Bin Ladin wasn't responsible but there are video tapes showing Osama with his Lieutenant sort of laughing and joking - they didn't expect such a grand result and all that baloney - what about that?

J - He might have been told at the last minute, but if that's all we've got, people say 'how come we haven't got him'? But the bottom line is, we don't want to get Osama - we'd have to put him on trial and other than that video tape, we don't have a 'shred' - not a 'shred' of evidence against him.

A - Uh huh! Yet, it might be enough in a court of law!

J - In a world court?

A - You might be right! Well! Uh - I don't know - You've shocked me with some of your views. on the 9/11 business. No question about that! 100's of hours - Where would they get simulator training like that? - that many hours . . .

J - Therein lies the problem. Because they 'certainly' couldn't waltz into any airline in the United States and get that kind of time - I mean most of the airlines in the US who have 757's use them 24 hours a day and they certainly aren't in the habit of renting - uh - to unauthorized people like somebody going in there saying 'Hey! give me 1500 hours of time" - Its just not going to happen. They would have to find another 757 elsewhere in the world and if you look around in the Middle-East and there's certainly none there because at least not in any Arab Country because they have airbusses - strictly airbusses - They would have to find 757's somewhere else.

A - How many simulators are there?

J - Well! There are lots of them - but uh - well - not lots of them - but there's certain around somewhere and they'd have to make a deal somewhere - obviously they got training because they couldn't do it without training .

A - But what we've been given by the media - by the mass media - you know - they were down in Florida - getting a few hours on lighter aircraft - that doesn't wash at all . . .

J - No possibility! If you talk to any pilot that knows anything about this and that was - and that was a feat with the (unintelligible) with the benefit with 19,000 hours in all the airplanes I've flown including air races - the Douglas B-26, I doubt that I could have done that the 1st time . . .

A - Really!

J - You are doing a mile every 6 seconds - so you had to learn where to line up, you know ... which reference points to get - you know - where to be at a particular time hit that building. It had to be planned for a long, long time. So this is a tremendous amount of skill, and it took a long time to do, particularly you know - they probably got somebody who didn't have thousands of hours - they probably had to train them from the ground up, and in this case it was relatively easy because they didn't have to learn how to take off and land - he didn't have to learn how do a single engine approach - he didn't have to learn to do a (unintelligible) or MBD approach, or anything like that ...

[Rue]

The concept that one "wins" a war is a misnomer. Even those who supposedly are on the winning side suffer loss and don't really win. Just ask Britain after World War Two.

That said, there is no war in Afghanistan. War in the conventional sense does not exist. What we have is a police action. The NATO forces are being used as a political police or security force.

By its very nature the police action can not "win" anything. At best it can achieve a stalemate until the feuding factions sit and agree on something.

This notion that you defeat terrorists or the bad guy misses the point. I don't think anyone in the Canadian military is so stupid as to believe they are in Afghanistan to "win". I think they know they are there to try maintain a status quo until civilians figure a way to create order from the chaos.

Now in terms of military strategy, no conventional armies can't "win" against guerilla armies or terrorists-at best they can contain their activities to a place and time, both temporary in nature.

[Black Dog]

How many identically themed Afghanistan threads do we need? Is the drumbeat message that the West's freedom is unsustainable?

I don't know about the West's, but I think Afghanistan has to get freedom before it can lose it.

To an extent you're wrong. I cannot see the Iran hostage crisis happening if people were afraid of America. The combination of the VN loss and a President scared of "killer rabbits" no doubt emboldened the malefactors of the world.

The best thing about this and other arguments for reputation-based foreign policy appraoch is that they are totally and completely unfalsifiable. You can't prove it one way or another, but it's so seductive in it's simplicity and has a certain appeal to the baser parts of human nature that it will always be popular no matter how ridiculous it is.

[Figleaf]

How many identically themed Afghanistan threads do we need? Is the drumbeat message that the West's freedom is unsustainable?

That is not the message. Just as in Viet Nam, we can not control a country half way around the world for eons, we can not control Iraq or Afghanistan for decades either. You can only push them into a direction hopefully they would want to go. The fall of VN did not mean the end of lifestyle in the west as was predicted (domino thoery) back then. The common problem in all these areas seems to be there is no way to disarm the populace because of (un)friendly neighbors.

If "the West" didn't find ways to meddle and inject itself into these places, we wouldn't have all these problems.

[geoffrey]

If "the West" didn't find ways to meddle and inject itself into these places, we wouldn't have all these problems.

Just leave the little girls locked up in their houses and forbidden to get education, right?

[Figleaf]

If "the West" didn't find ways to meddle and inject itself into these places, we wouldn't have all these problems.

Just leave the little girls locked up in their houses and forbidden to get education, right?

We live in a world where injustice and cruelty abound. Should we fight injustice and cruelty? Certainly. Should we squander our efforts fighting insurmountable injustice and cruelty half-way around the world? I'm not convinced.

[Leafless]

And by your rational if planes are once again flown into buildings, will you consider war in Iraq and Afghanistan a failure?

This is NOT a WAR to begin with, it is a TERRORIST HUNT and hardly worth the effort in my opinion.

I wish it was a war then we could use a little bit of REAL MUSCLE POWER, and save a lot of Western lives in the process.

[Mad_Michael]

I heard an former CIA Operative who had been stationed in the Middle-East say that NATO can't win the war in Iraq or Afghanistan and that the Taliban and OBL are getting stonger in numbers and the only way to stop the bloodshed is for Rice to go to Tehran and get them on a peace mission.

NATO is not involved in any Iraq operation.

How can we take your CIA operative seriously if he's that confused about NATO?

Now his reasoning is that Iran hold power in the region and could greatly help bring peace to the area. My question is how bad does Bush want peace?? Would he do anything to get it and save thousand of lives?? If the war doesn't stop the CIA agent said he fears the terrorist will attack the Americans in Europe and inside the US and I'm sure inside Canada, Holland and England. You know there are at least 1 BILLION muslims or more in the world, more than there are people in the west. Think about.

Its pretty obvious that 'peace' is not a goal of the Bush Administration.