Harper Links Liberal to Air India

[guyser]

You people display such nauseating hypocrisy it's impossible to take you seriously. I find myself without the patience to do more than point out your ignorance on a constant basis, as few of your are in any way worthy of respect and real debate.

Should we bow when you enter the room or just stand and applaud?

Pot meet kettle.

You said "No, you join the Liberals because you know they're the natural governing power and you want to get yourself a piece of the pie. You want power, money and prestige. It's a whole other mindset from those who join the NDP or Tories or Greens for that matter."

I'm sorry, you were mentioning something about ignorance? Were you talking about yours or others?

[Catchme]

Nice try geoffery but no cigar, you are trying to compare oranges and apples.

The anti-terrorism act, is not just these 2 sun set clauses.

The constitutionality of them was always in question which is why they were sun set.

The Liberals should never have rushed forward following in the hysteria of the Bush administration in the first place, but at least they were clear thinking enough to sun set them.

Again personal individual rights must come before national security, there is NO question.

[geoffrey]

Again personal individual rights must come before national security, there is NO question.

I have a personal individual right to security of person, and if the government can't live up to that obligation and the courts infringe upon it, it's time that we look at this from another direction. Elect a majority government that will protect our security, or deal with such issues as society apart from the government... though that's never really been successful in Canada.

[Catchme]

Again personal individual rights must come before national security, there is NO question.

I have a personal individual right to security of person, and if the government can't live up to that obligation and the courts infringe upon it, it's time that we look at this from another direction. Elect a majority government that will protect our security, or deal with such issues as society apart from the government... though that's never really been successful in Canada.

Our security is not in question and neither of those 2 clauses will secure it any further than it is

However with those 2 clauses, will in fact, diminish down to NOTHING our individual security.

Just because someone is perhaps overly fearful, or xenophobic, does not mean their feelings about their personal security have a right to override ALL Canadians rights and freedoms.

Hiti's quote is spot on!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety," said Ben Franklin more than 200 years ago, and his words ring true today.

[geoffrey]

How many Canadians were killed by ethnic/religious violence on Air India? Something like 250. I'm sure there is absoultely no threat hey Catchme, only after it's happened to we care for a few weeks... then head right back to our collective ignorance.

[Keepitsimple]

Perhaps those that would like to see the sunset on these clauses should read this very disturbing article:

It's aptly entitled "Disturbing Reality Buried"

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Cor...pf-3642930.html

[na85]

Out of curiosity, am I the only left-winger in this thread who DOESN'T think PM Harper was trying to link the Libs to terrorism? I think at most he was trying to paint a picture of nepotism and bias as the Liberal decision-making criteria.

What exactly was the bias and the nepotism in the article that Harper was about to read?

...when I read this is how the Liberal Party makes decisions.

To me, this is implying that Bains' decisions are biased toward his family members (father in law), which is the definition of nepotism.

[jdobbin]

To me, this is implying that Bains' decisions are biased toward his family members (father in law), which is the definition of nepotism.

That seems a little difficult to believe since it was only that morning that Bain's father-in-law was even on the list as a witness that might be compelled to talk. The MP's decision on the subject was made in advance of the RCMP leak.

[na85]

I think that saying "omg libs r terrorists" is going too far, even for the CPC.

[White Doors]

But let's look at the Liberal record over the years when it comes to racism and bigotry and just off-the-wall charges.

Last week Adolf Hitler devotee and Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel was jailed in Germany on 14 counts of inciting hatred and for years of anti-Semitic activity.

In 1968, the Liberals actually allowed Zundel to run for their party leadership -- the leadership Pierre Trudeau won. Zundel's hated philosophy was already well-known at the time, but the Liberals preached 'open democracy'.

We are no longer supposed to mention Zundel's onetime affiliation with the Liberal party. It would be bad manners to do so.

Yet can you imagine the furor if Zundel had run for the Progressive Conservative leadership? The Liberals would be hurling that in the faces of today's Conservative party. Likely, they would have also brought it up during the days of the Reform party and the Canadian Alliance.

Recall one-time Multiculturism Minister Hedy Fry charging there were Ku Klux Klan crosses burning that very minute on lawns in Prince George, B.C. No crosses, and no censuring for Fry's outrageous accusations, either.

As finance minister, Paul Martin himself attended a fundraiser for the Tamil Tigers, then a known Sri Lanka terrorist group and now on the banned list of groups. Previously, while seeking the Liberal leadership in 1990, he had sought the support of the International Sikh Youth Federation, already identified by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) as a terrorist group. Martin made an impassioned speech before that group, talking about "shared values."

Imagine if Conservative leaders had spoken before these groups and sought their support.

Paul said I could post it here.

thanks

[Catchme]

Link please?

Harper made the Tamil Tigers a terrorist organization, and who deported Zundel?

oh yes, that would be the Liberals!

[White Doors]

He ran for their parties leadership!

You don't see that being hypocritical??

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Jac...27/3672147.html

[Catchme]

He ran for their parties leadership!

You don't see that being hypocritical??

Now, seeing as how Zundel did not start his Holocaust denial until the mid 70's and was discovered doing so in 1978, just how was anyone supposed to know what he was going to do 10 years later? They were supposed to have pre-cognition?

Moreover, he was defeated, eh?! And who immediately moved to stop his hate speech? The Liberals

One would be more likely to tie the CPC in with Zundel seeing as how many Reformers supported him and his actions. Do you not find that hyprocritical, and even more so now they are trying to smear the Liberals with it? One need only google Zundel Keegstra and Reform Alliance together and all the good are right there.

On December 8, 1990, a secret Heritage Front rally was attended by Edmund Burke Society founder, Paul Fromm. The meeting, a "Martyr's Day rally was held to honour the memory of Robert J. Matthews, leader of the violently racist extremist group, "The Order" who was killed in a shootout with US officials in 1984. Wolfgang Droege had been on the periphery of that group, known to its members as the "Bruders Schweigen", or the "silent brotherhood. "[2]

In 1990, Stephen Andrew Hammond was arrested on a Canada wide Immigration Warrant for which the Source provided the information. Hammond, a white supremacist from the United Kingdom, had been deported twice before from Canada and the USA. He was associated with the Ku Klux Klan and had been jailed in Dominica for threatening to kill a cabinet minister, and after attempting, with Wolfgang Droege, to overthrow that island's government.

Droege instructed Grant Bristow to accompany him on a trip to Munich on March 20, 1991 to a neo-Nazi conference sponsored by Ernst Zundel. Zundel had asked the two to accompany him to the conference which he promoted. The rally was broken up by German police and Zundel was arrested.

April 1991 saw two events. Droege established a "computer link" with Terry Long, although this means of communications was short-lived. Of greater significance that month, Wolfgang Droege and Ernst Zundel, the Holocaust Denier and prolific publisher of hate literature, [3] appeared together publicly at a Heritage Front meeting. [4]

In May 1991, Terry Long, Wolfgang Droege and Grant Bristow met to discuss, among other issues, the establishment of a bulletin board (BBS) hate line similar to one in the United States.

On May 27, 1991, Alan Over field's security group, including several people from the Heritage Front, provided perimeter security at a Reform Party information meeting in Toronto. Bristow was part of the team that waited outside the church, presumably to repel members of CARP - Coalition Against the Reform Party. The role of the CSIS Source is described in chapter VII concerning the Reform Party (7.1).

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/canadian/s...nt-emerges.html

Towards the Destruction of Canada: An Appraisal of the Western Canada Concept

by Byron Fraser

(Editor's Note: The following article will be appearing in a forthcoming issue of West Coast Libertarian.)

I would like to begin by saying that I have the utmost respect and admiration for Doug Christie. This is based mainly only what I know about his valiant and spirited defense of Ernst Zundel some years ago when Zundel was being viciously persecuted by our left-liberal fascists and slandered as a "racist," etc. As Mr. Christie undoubtedly knows, libertarians were among the first to acknowledge the validity of Arthur Butz's thesis in The Hoax of the Twentieth Century that the so-called "holocaust" — the presumed extermination of European Jewry — is one big fraud and fabrication. Since 1977, when Butz's book first came out, the truth has outed world-wide and, despite massive statist reaction (book bannings, etc.) it is now common knowledge among thinking people who have examined the evidence with an open mind, that the revisionist case is irrefutable. It is, nevertheless, still quite dangerous to say so in public. Western Canadian separatism, Mr. Christie's brainchild, is another issue which libertarians can readily support. It is also a cause that will triumph.

This said, it is unfortunately also the case that the Western Canada Concept, in its present form, is gravely flawed, from a libertarian standpoint. Specifically, while Doug Christie and Keltie Zubko have generally done an excellent job elucidating their case against confederation, they fail miserably when it comes to presenting an ideologically attractive alternative of what they are for. Their statement of "Principles and Goals" displays a poverty of imagination and a deficit of elementary political/economic education which is truly amazing for supposedly Right-thinking people (but typical of the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of modern conservatism.)

http://www.westcan.org/westcan/WSP/may94.html

Now would you like me to provide more proof that The Calgary Sun are blowing smoke, playing dirty politics for the CPC, and that is actually Harper and the CPC and their supporters who have ties to Zundel?

There were no Sikh terrorist organizations that were recognized in 1990.

Nice lies and half truths by the Calgary Sun.

Typical Republican CPC dirty politics tell half a story and skew that so it is unrecognizable as well.

[Catchme]

Still waiting white doors for you to try to support your contentions, pretty hard to do though, when the source used is deliberately being disengenuous.

[hiti]

I'll finish this up with a nice quote from that decision.

Per McLachlin C.J. and Iacobucci, Major and Arbour JJ.: The purpose of the Anti-terrorism Act is to prosecute and prevent terrorism offences. Although terrorism necessarily changes the context in which the rule of law must operate, it does not call for the abdication of law. The challenge for democracies in the battle against terrorism is to balance an effective response with fundamental democratic values that respect the importance of human life, liberty and the rule of law. Subject to interpretive comments, s. 83.28 of the Criminal Code meets that challenge.

Note: Justice McLachlin says, “it does not call for the abdication of law.” Meaning that is unlawful in Canada to throw someone in jail indefinitely without charging them. She also says , “with fundamental democratic values that respect the importance of human life, liberty and the rule of law.” Meaning that it is unlawful to harass a citizen of Canada by forcing them to say things, like the torture chambers that Arar was subject to.

So even though the SCC did say that the Anti Terrorist Act was not against the Charter of Rights, they DID voice parameters for anyone who used 83.28.

Perhaps those that would like to see the sunset on these clauses should read this very disturbing article:

It's aptly entitled "Disturbing Reality Buried"

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Cor...pf-3642930.html

Gee... wonder how many American Muslims would agree with the 12% who say that “feel that the attacks would be justified” and Bush has all those harsh laws plus his own private jail of hell at Gutomino Bay.

Paul said I could post it here.

thanks

Paul eats too many of the worms in the bottom of his tequila bottle.

[hiti]

Now would you like me to provide more proof that The Calgary Sun are blowing smoke, playing dirty politics for the CPC, and that is actually Harper and the CPC and their supporters who have ties to Zundel?

There were no Sikh terrorist organizations that were recognized in 1990.

Nice lies and half truths by the Calgary Sun.

Typical Republican CPC dirty politics tell half a story and skew that so it is unrecognizable as well.

Hey Paul Jackson........ I know you read that, so why aren't you defending your slanderous lies?

[White Doors]

Hey

Don't get upset at me. The Liberals are the one's with the history of letting holocause deniers in their party.

And even let them run for the leadership of their party!

haha

As finance minister, Paul Martin himself attended a fundraiser for the Tamil Tigers, then a known Sri Lanka terrorist group and now on the banned list of groups.

them's the facts.

you are the one twisting them around.

[jdobbin]

He ran for their parties leadership!

You don't see that being hypocritical??

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Jac...27/3672147.html

When it was it publicly known that he was a Holocaust denier?

[newbie]

He ran for their parties leadership!

You don't see that being hypocritical??

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Jac...27/3672147.html

When it was it publicly known that he was a Holocaust denier?

Well, it said so in the Calgary sun so it must be true

[Catchme]

He ran for their parties leadership!

You don't see that being hypocritical??

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Jac...27/3672147.html

When it was it publicly known that he was a Holocaust denier?

Noit was in 1968, and he did not start denial until the mid 1970's and was exposed in 1978.

The CPC are just trying to cover their butts because they know their connections to Zundel are well documented and they want to apparently try to deflect away from their actions.

This Reform/Canadian Alliance/CPC public ties to the far right and Zundel went right up to 2000.

The Far Right and Mainstream Politics

One of Fromm's primary objectives is to lobby mainstream politicians in order to influence policies on health, crime, and immigration reform, and it appears that he has had some success. In June 2001, it was revealed by Jonathan Gatehouse that Leon Benoit, the former immigration critic for the Canadian Alliance, had "face to face meetings" with Fromm dating back to 1999. 43 In the article, Benoit admitted to meeting with Fromm at his office in Ottawa and in Toronto, stating: "ome of the things he said made a lot of sense. I think he offered some good suggestions for changing the immigration system." 44 Fromm's attempt to influence the political mainstream via immigration reform is not a new. According to Barrett, Fromm considered immigration to be a more "volatile issue to raise with MPs than foreign aid." 45 In 1999, Fromm booked a hospitality suite at a conservative political conference in Ottawa at which he invited "young tories and reformers" to join him to discuss immigration and free speech issues. 46

Leon Benoit is not the only Canadian Alliance member to have contact with the far right; apparently, Raphael Bergmann contacted Rob Anders, the Canadian Alliance member who voted against granting Nelson Mandela honorary Canadian citizenship, regarding his Straight-pride protests. 47

The connection to the Canadian Alliance by the far right is much deeper than merely advising on policy. In a conversation with Fromm, it was suggested that his group was contacted by members of the Canadian Alliance to collect information that would publicly damage Warran Kinsella, a Liberal Party advisor and author, in retaliation for articles critical of the Canadian Alliance. 48 Indicating that contact may have occurred between the Canadian Alliance and the far right, Lemire (who also acts as Fromm's web-master) notes, "As for if we were approached by people in the Canadian Alliance to them information on Kinsella… Well that's between us and them." 49 Lemire further states, "Yes it is true we are building a file on him through our website…. We expose his lies, half-truths, and other shenanigans he is up to." 50

It was revealed in late 2000 that several far right members and extremist were also members of the Canadian Alliance, including Doug Christie, Marc Lemire, Paul Fromm, and Doug Collins. 51 However, the Canadian Alliance quickly expelled the far right extremists just prior to the federal election in 2000.

http://www.canadiancontent.ca/articles/022802racism.html

Paul Fromm darling of the Right

In fact, Paul Fromm, the director of CAFE, stood next to a Nazi flag at a 1990 Heritage Front meeting and spoke to a room full of racist skinheads, stating: "We're all on the same side. We're up against an enemy, as I see it, the equivalent of an army of occupation… and the only way we are going to regain out country is through unity, unity, unity." 16

The whole link is an excellent read about the Reform Alliance CPC xenophobia

More on the Zundel connection to the Reform Alliance CPC here:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....opic=8153&st=60

[margrace]

It is frightening to hear the twist Harper supports put on their stories. Just reading the posts on here trying to prove that the Liberals supported Zundel is very frightneing.

[hiti]

It is frightening to hear the twist Harper supports put on their stories. Just reading the posts on here trying to prove that the Liberals supported Zundel is very frightneing.

And when their lies are exposed Steve's Cons are ..... oh so quiet.

[Keepitsimple]

Well....I'm a Conservative who won't be quiet. I'm not comfortable with this whole thread of Ernst Zundel. It should not have been raised.....the rebuttals are right - there is no evidence that the Liberals knew anything about what his future would bring. Nobody voted for him anyway - and the Liberals did try to get him booted out of the country. Conservatives have enough left-leaning "hidden agenda" stories and ranting mis-information to work with - we don't have to make things up.

Just yesterday, the relatives of the Air India casualties pleaded for the sunset provisions to be extended. Nobody in the Liberal Party would meet with them to hear their emotional pleas. Michael Ignatieff referred to them as a "sideshow". Needless to say, the relatives were not impressed. Can you imagine the headlines if the roles were reversed and the Deputy Leader of the Conservatives had referred to an emotional plea as a "Sideshow". Of course it wasn't the Conservatives - it was the Liberals....so I'm sure it was taken out of context....after all, Conservatives are heartless and mean-spirited. Liberals care, and they care deeply.

[Catchme]

Well....I'm a Conservative who won't be quiet. I'm not comfortable with this whole thread of Ernst Zundel. It should not have been raised.....the rebuttals are right - there is no evidence that the Liberals knew anything about what his future would bring. Nobody voted for him anyway - and the Liberals did try to get him booted out of the country. Conservatives have enough left-leaning "hidden agenda" stories and ranting mis-information to work with - we don't have to make things up.

The Liberals did not try to get him booted out the country, they booted him out.

You are correct, there is NO evidence connecting Zundel to the Liberals, or indeed to anyone on the left, there is however, a significant amount of evidence connecting Zundel to the CPC and those who support them from their days as Reform and Alliance. For example Lifesite.news comes solidly down on the side of Zundel and shows clear support of Nazi sympathcizer Paul Fromm, indeed it actually links the Christian heritage Party, the Reform Party, Zundel, and CPC campaign manager John Reynolds

Mr. Jain is a strong advocate of legislated employment equity and he believes that "systemic discrimination" is a very prevalent problem in Canada today.

He was on the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) from 1986-98 (the Justice Department press release has his tribunal term ending in 1992).

Probably most disturbing, however, is the fact that he was on the tribunal last year when, in a case involving holocaust revisionist Ernst Zundel, they ruled that truth is not a sufficient defense against charges of discrimination.

Conservatives don't hold out much hope of having their views entertained by the panel, especially in view of the limited ability for compromise on the issue.

Mr. Field and others including the CHP and Paul Fromm, head of the Canadian Association of Freedom of Expression (CAFE), intend to try to appear before the committee to make their views known during the public consultations.

John Reynolds also told The Conservative Times that the Reform Party would be monitoring the process.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/1999/may/990507a.html

Just yesterday, the relatives of the Air India casualties pleaded for the sunset provisions to be extended. Nobody in the Liberal Party would meet with them to hear their emotional pleas. Michael Ignatieff referred to them as a "sideshow". Needless to say, the relatives were not impressed. Can you imagine the headlines if the roles were reversed and the Deputy Leader of the Conservatives had referred to an emotional plea as a "Sideshow". Of course it wasn't the Conservatives - it was the Liberals....so I'm sure it was taken out of context....after all, Conservatives are heartless and mean-spirited. Liberals care, and they care deeply.

This not a question of who cares and who doesn't care. This is a serious matter of freedom of liberty and due process.

It was a vote in the HoC, not a sentencing trial in criminal court.

When making the laws of the land, no emotional pleas should ever be presented for for back up to make any laws.

Harper shamelessly, and erroneously, used those families for pure political purposes, to try and bias public opinion based upon emotional pleas. It was pure propaganada and nothing more.

[Catchme]

It is frightening to hear the twist Harper supports put on their stories. Just reading the posts on here trying to prove that the Liberals supported Zundel is very frightneing.

And when their lies are exposed Steve's Cons are ..... oh so quiet.

There is an interesting youtube link you might be interested in.