"Reduce Tuition Fees"

[ClearWest]

University and college students held rallies across Canada Wednesday, demanding more affordable education through lower tuition rates and increased government funding.

(See the rest at this link: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...hub=TopStories)

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but wasn't there once a time when people didn't expect others to pay for everything for them?

This is yet another sign of a growing socialist movement in Canada. They expect the taxpayer to pay for their tuition, their childcare, their ATM fees, not to mention all the socialist programs that are already in place.

Personally, I find their arrogance frustrating. The world doesn't owe them a favour.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Riverwind]

University and college students held rallies across Canada Wednesday, demanding more affordable education through lower tuition rates and increased government funding.

I believe we are much better off as a society if we ensure that every has access to a minimum level of education because a society with more educated people is a wealthier society. That said, I think offering free/cheap tuition for university is the dumbest way to achieve that objective because it undermines the quality of our universities and encourages people to pursue university education when they probably should be looking for other options.

I would like to see a beefed up scholarship/bursery program that ensures that any talented student is able to complete a university education with a minimal debt load. For students that are less able the student loan program should be revamped to make it more like a mortgage instead of a car loan.

[geoffrey]

It's an investment, not a fun social program. This is coming from a current post-secondary student.

The ~$20k in tution costs for an undergrad degree will easily pay itself off in the long run, whether in cash or doing a job that you more enjoy. It's a small price to pay really.

With the student loans program the way it is today, no one is really denied access if they really want it. Some middle-income kids are stuck with limited choice (right at the student loans cut off line in parental income), but the poor and the rich are generally ok.

Of course the average student wants to pay less in fees, but to get what? Spend it on beer and popcorn??? Sillyness.

The fees being high encourages more commitment to study and less people taking flaky programs in order to not get kicked out the parents basement.

[Saturn]

With the student loans program the way it is today, no one is really denied access if they really want it.

Talk about yourself and don't make generalizations. The student loans programs are ran differently by each province and in Ontario you are pretty much out of luck if your parents earn anything over $30K.

Education is an investment for the individual involved and for society. It's a far better investment than the wide majority of other things we pay for. Like anything else, it's best to target the students who need/deserve it most, so I'm all for making loans and bursaries more accessible. It's going to cost far less than cutting tuition across the board.

But hell, the right-wing so much favours universal handouts these days that better yet, Harper should just send each student $1000/month and then claw it back for those who earn the highest marks and bother to do their work. That's great policy - you never know, some students may even start voting...for him obviously.

[Saturn]

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but wasn't there once a time when people didn't expect others to pay for everything for them?

This is yet another sign of a growing socialist movement in Canada.

Oh, ya, you are reaaaaly old fashioned. That or you've been drunk for the last 50 years.

The babyboomers went to university practically for free. Tuition fees have more than tripled in real terms in the last couple of decades, other associated costs have gone up even more. Now the babyboomers are crying foul that they deserve tax cuts and that younger generations don't deserve the same education benefits they enjoyed themselves - the only thing the young deserve is to inherit their debt. If that's a sign of a growing socialist movement in Canada, dude, you are delirious.

[August1991]

Education is an investment for the individual involved and for society. It's a far better investment than the wide majority of other things we pay for. Like anything else, it's best to target the students who need/deserve it most, so I'm all for making loans and bursaries more accessible. It's going to cost far less than cutting tuition across the board.

Why do I suspect that's a self-serving argument?

But hell, the right-wing so much favours universal handouts these days that better yet, Harper should just send each student $1000/month and then claw it back for those who earn the highest marks and bother to do their work. That's great policy - you never know, some students may even start voting...for him obviously.

Send $1000 to each student? Of course not. It makes alot more sense to send the money to a teacher and then tell the teacher to teach for free.

----

I'm frankly in favour of subsidizing the purchases of a Mercedes-Benz. It is well-known that wealthy societies have many Mercedes-Benz and one of the best indicators of social success is a good car. (California, one of the wealthiest societies in the world, also has the highest per capita concentrations of Mercedes-Benz.)

For wealthier people, the government should offer a loan scheme to purchase a Mercedes-Benz but for people with less funds, it should offer grants and subsidies.

The government should also negotiate with DaimlerChrysler to ensure that car parts are manufactured in Canada and this would also help our industrial base.

[geoffrey]

Talk about yourself and don't make generalizations. The student loans programs are ran differently by each province and in Ontario you are pretty much out of luck if your parents earn anything over $30K.

I don't have access to student loans, but I don't think I really need it either. My parents don't pay for my education and I'm not at home. I understand I likely draw a higher income than the average student, but there are plenty of products out there (all banks offer a 'student line of credit') for students that need some access to cash. Whatever happened to working hard all summer... even at a $10/hr job, 50-60 hours a week, that's $8000-$10000 in cash.

I still see these protester types at the bar Thursday, Friday and Saturday night so I really struggle with throwing more tax money at it. It's all about priorities. Beer or school... beer or school.

Education is an investment for the individual involved and for society. It's a far better investment than the wide majority of other things we pay for. Like anything else, it's best to target the students who need/deserve it most, so I'm all for making loans and bursaries more accessible. It's going to cost far less than cutting tuition across the board.

Making loans more accessible is 100% reasonable in my opinion. That'd completely level the playing field. Past that, if people wish to donate bursaries, then we should make it as advantageous for them to do so from a tax perspective... how about a deduction beyond the initial amount for interest earned and distributed?

[August1991]

Uh, I forgot to add that only beautiful people will have access to this system of subsidized Mercedes-Benz purchasing. I mean, what's the point in giving a Benz to someone who is ugly?

[Saturn]

For wealthier people, the government should offer a loan scheme to purchase a Mercedes-Benz but for people with less funds, it should offer grants and subsidies.

Fine by me. If your Benz will contribute to the economy, provide health-care and computer services, and care for you in your old age, then yep, the more people get a Benz, the better.

[geoffrey]

For wealthier people, the government should offer a loan scheme to purchase a Mercedes-Benz but for people with less funds, it should offer grants and subsidies.

Fine by me. If your Benz will contribute to the economy, provide health-care and computer services, and care for you in your old age, then yep, the more people get a Benz, the better.

But you see Saturn, I already pay for my health services. A doctor gets a rather fantastic standard of living once he or she has completed their education. As they should. Why should I subsidize the initial investment as well?

Do you not think med school has a positive NPV?

[August1991]

Fine by me. If your Benz will contribute to the economy, provide health-care and computer services, and care for you in your old age, then yep, the more people get a Benz, the better.

Please tell me how a BA in history, sociology, fine arts or political science will achieve any of those things?

By building and maintaining Mercedes-Benz, the Canadian economy will be on the cutting edge of transportation technology. Furthermore, if more Canadians could drive around in a Mercedes-Benz, they would have enhanced self-confidence and and become more productive members of society. Nothing beats driving around in a Mercedes-Benz for one's self-esteem - particularly if you're beautiful.

The pride of M-B ownership will do more to improve productivity than having a mere university diploma.

You seem to think that the stupid should subsidize the smart. I think the ugly should subsidize the beautiful.

Under my scheme, Canada would attract beautiful immigrants and this would surely improve our quality of life.

[Saturn]

Whatever happened to working hard all summer... even at a $10/hr job, 50-60 hours a week, that's $8000-$10000 in cash.

$8-10K a year is not enough though. IMO, it takes about $15K/yr unless you live with your parents. On top of that not everyone can get a $10/hr job. Some will work for next to nothing just to get valuable experience in their field. Whatever the case, I don't see why the government shouldn't provide loans for these students to get their degree and the experience they need. Most students pay their student loans in full within 2 years of graduation and end up paying way more in taxes than someone flipping burgers at MacDonalds.

I still see these protester types at the bar Thursday, Friday and Saturday night so I really struggle with throwing more tax money at it. It's all about priorities. Beer or school... beer or school.

All students you know you see at the bar every Th, Fr, and Sat? Doubt it. Besides, most people don't get their priorities straight until they are 25 at least (30 really). And then it's too late to go to school and they are stuck with kids and a deadend job or on welfare and you know the rest. Young people should get a bit of a break and what they need to get through school - they got a whole life of working ahead of them.

[geoffrey]

All students you know you see at the bar every Th, Fr, and Sat? Doubt it. Besides, most people don't get their priorities straight until they are 25 at least (30 really). And then it's too late to go to school and they are stuck with kids and a deadend job or on welfare and you know the rest. Young people should get a bit of a break and what they need to get through school - they got a whole life of working ahead of them.

I pay taxes... so essientially I'd be paying for my tution, my living expenses and my beer and I'm buying everyone else's beer at the same time?

I am not to subsidize other adult's messed up priorities.

[Saturn]

But you see Saturn, I already pay for my health services. A doctor gets a rather fantastic standard of living once he or she has completed their education. As they should. Why should I subsidize the initial investment as well?

Do you not think med school has a positive NPV?

I think that a medical student should be able to pay back his loan, so I don't see why he shouldn't get one in the first place. I think that we should subsidize a lot more medical students, because I'd rather pay their tuition than outrageous fees for their services.

[geoffrey]

I think that a medical student should be able to pay back his loan, so I don't see why he shouldn't get one in the first place. I think that we should subsidize a lot more medical students, because I'd rather pay their tuition than outrageous fees for their services.

With loans, not handouts or tution cuts.

I can't see why the loan can't be dealt with privately though.

[Saturn]

I pay taxes... so essientially I'd be paying for my tution, my living expenses and my beer and I'm buying everyone else's beer at the same time?

I am not to subsidize other adult's messed up priorities.

But you probably pay more for some people's luxury to stay home with the kids (or while the kids are in school) and for others to spend their OAS benefits in Florida despite the fact that they have higher incomes than you do. Hmm, education vs Dr.Phil and renting condos in Miami. Tough choice.

[geoffrey]

But you probably pay more for some people's luxury to stay home with the kids (or while the kids are in school) and for others to spend their OAS benefits in Florida despite the fact that they have higher incomes than you do. Hmm, education vs Dr.Phil and renting condos in Miami. Tough choice.

I don't like those either, your not going to get me there.

[Jean_Poutine]

All students you know you see at the bar every Th, Fr, and Sat? Doubt it. Besides, most people don't get their priorities straight until they are 25 at least (30 really). And then it's too late to go to school and they are stuck with kids and a deadend job or on welfare and you know the rest. Young people should get a bit of a break and what they need to get through school - they got a whole life of working ahead of them.

I pay taxes... so essientially I'd be paying for my tution, my living expenses and my beer and I'm buying everyone else's beer at the same time?

I am not to subsidize other adult's messed up priorities.

If you're a student, I doubt you're paying much in taxes.

[Jean_Poutine]

I think that a medical student should be able to pay back his loan, so I don't see why he shouldn't get one in the first place. I think that we should subsidize a lot more medical students, because I'd rather pay their tuition than outrageous fees for their services.

With loans, not handouts or tution cuts.

I can't see why the loan can't be dealt with privately though.

The fact that banks generally look for collateral and credit rating -- the sort of thing students don't have much of -- might be a problem.

[Riverwind]

---

[geoffrey]

If you're a student, I doubt you're paying much in taxes.

Not much, and that is enough of a subsidy for me. I pay half the taxes of someone at my level of income that is not going to school.

What else do students need?

[Charles Anthony]

What else do students need?

Better quality education.

It makes alot more sense to send the money to a teacher and then tell the teacher to teach for free.

That makes as much sense as subsidizing stand-up comedians more than we subsidize long-winded television comedy writers because stand-up comedians get their message across faster -- unless they use too much sarcasm.

Whether it is a good or a service or even a dream, if somebody or a group of people are in need, the most efficient way to help them is to give them money to buy their needs -- unless it is physically impossible to buy said good or service or dream. Subsidizing the supplier of their need creates waste and kills competition of the supply.

Saturn, you are not getting it and I doubt that you have dealt with many people (outside of a school campus) with a post-secondary education that have to work for a living. A lot of education is a round-about and indirect symbol of future success. A long time ago, higher education co-related reasonably to higher success. Now, it does not. Educators are doing a grave disservice for maintaining such an illusion. A lot of students are wasting both their time and our money. As a result, the value of post-secondary education is diluted.

Here are some more of my thoughts on the subject: Cost of education related to value

Let me sit on the fence on behalf of education as a goal in and of itself.

I am reminded of a conversation (young student and old man) that I overheard while waiting in line at a library many moons ago. The two clearly had not seen eachother is some time and were catching up on details. The old man asked the student what he was studying. After hearing he was studying lettres francaises the old man balked saying he used to be so good at science and math and yadda yadda yadda and asked what kind of a job he expected to get with that education? The young man quipped "Je ne suis pas ici a la recherche d'un job mais plutot pour une education."

Also, around the same time, a buddy of mine was studying history and I asked him what he was planning to do with a degree in history. He laughed and said: "Hang it up on my wall!" Now, my buddy has been working consistently at the same job. He summarizes news (television, radio and print) reports for politicians. [Politicians want to know everything that is in the news but they do not have the time to pay attention to all of the media.] He prepares up-to-date headlines with sub-headline-summaries for quick reading. Sounds like a pretty interesting gig, right? I do not know how much he makes but he likes it and he gets paid and he has been doing it for 10 years.

[Saturn]

If you're a student, I doubt you're paying much in taxes.

Not much, and that is enough of a subsidy for me. I pay half the taxes of someone at my level of income that is not going to school.

What else do students need?

Students need to concentrate on their studies, not work three part-time jobs and fall behind on their studies. On top of that, there are far too few jobs around campuses for the number of students competing for them. 10 bucks before graduation is worth the same as $100 after graduation, so just give them the damned $10 bucks when they need it, they'll pay it back 10 fold through loan repayment and higher taxes.

What's your point, geoffrey? Education if about the best investment society can make and pays the highest returns a government supported program can pay. Student loans cost virtually nothing. You p.o'd because you were lucky to get a job that most students cannot get and you pay taxes while they don't? What's your problem here? It certainly isn't the cost.

[Renegade]

There is a ready-made free market solution to the problem of students not having enough cash to finance their education. It is the same problem an entrepreneur has when he has the potential but not the financing.

I recall reading a story where a student auctioned shares in himself to finance educations. Each share bought a slice of his future earnings. He obviously didn't auction off 100% of his future earnings, as he both needed funds to survive, and if he auctioned 100% of his future earnings, he would have no incentive to succeed.

Here's the benefits of this approach:

1. It encourages students to undertake a financially productive course of study. A degree which will not lead to future earnings, will not raise much money and is thus discouraged.

2. The course of study, and the students skills and character will all factor into an investor's decision to provide capital to this student. It both encourages students to carefully consider their course of study, and their behaviour.

3. No additional public funding is requred.

[stignasty]

'Lifestyle' not behind student debt: CFS

Last Updated: Thursday, February 8, 2007 | 10:40 AM AT

CBC News

University student leaders say they're insulted that Nova Scotia's education minister would blame huge student debts on lifestyle choices.

In Halifax, Education Minister Karen Casey told reporters that student debt isn't always about tuition.

"Sometimes the costs that students incur are real, but sometimes they are a lifestyle that a student has chosen which escalates, and when they come out they come out with a big debt, but it might not be all directly related to their course of study," she said.

That's simply offensive, said Amanda Aziz, national chair of the Canadian Federation of Students.

"No one's going to indebt themselves tens of thousands of dollars just to have some spare spending cash," she said.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story...-lifestyle.html