Military investigates claim Canadians abused detainees

[weaponeer]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP287758.htm

Sorry, forgot the link:)

[Army Guy]

Poser:

Guess you're failing to take into consideration any women speaking out ih Afghanistan, would be considered radical.

I have no problem with any group speaking out for improvements in afganistan, in fact the more the merrier. Also keep in mind i did not write the article just posted it, and those speaking out on the RAWA are ex RAWA members.

And I cannot believe believe anyone would go so far as to try and discredit RAWA, in order to support Canadians being in Afghanistan.

That statement is kind of two faced is it not, i mean you have been for weeks discrediting DND and all of the work that our military has been doing in AFGAN. My intention was not to discredit your only source but to show it's not an end all to be all source. The link is not that damaging actually, it does report tha good and the bad.

How dare, a monkier here at mapleleaf forums, try to silence, and discredit, the voices of Afghan women who have been fighting and dying for their freedom since 1977?

Now i'm a monkier, last week i was a murderer and prisoner abuser, i guess i'm moving up in the world..

I actually aplaud these women and thier fight for freedom , And no where in my post did i say they should be silenced, what i did say is they had nothing good to say about anything, when conditions have actually improved in thier country instead of giving some form of credit all they do is find fault. Much like yourself..

Oh and i just want to add this little tidbit since you brought it up, that the men and women of this country have been fighting and dying for it's freedom since the early 1800's. The same men and women that you have spent so much of your time trying to discredit...

[Canadian Blue]

Guess you're failing to take into consideration any women speaking out ih Afghanistan, would be considered radical.

And I cannot believe believe anyone would go so far as to try and discredit RAWA, in order to support Canadians being in Afghanistan.

How dare, a monkier here at mapleleaf forums, try to silence, and discredit, the voices of Afghan women who have been fighting and dying for their freedom since 1977?

How dare some poster make a bunch of unfounded accusation's towards members of the Canadian military as being apologists for Hitler, child killers, and POW abusers.

[Army Guy]

It appears that a few of the Military police personal are the ones that had intially made the report of handling the POWS roughly....an investagation was launched and found that they were not, infact those that made the complaint were given refresher training on the grounds it was thought they were no soft...

Imagine that,perhaps we are not POW abusers after all...Thats got to bite eh poser...

military investagation.

[Catchme]

Ah, nice try, no cigar. The facts on the ground say otherwise, but a nice bit of after the fact spin, and trying to cover tracks and nothing more. Update and more information:

Dr. Attaran’s research and public protests were instrumental in forcing Canadian military and government authorities to launch multiple investigations into the possible abuse of detainees by Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and in bringing public attention to the Canadian Armed Forces’ practice of transferring prisoners to Afghan security forces—who are notorious for their routine abuse and torture of prisoners. (See “Canada’s Afghan intervention—Three probes launched into prisoner abuse”) Dr. Attaran has made clear that his interest in this matter is primarily to ensure that the treatment of prisoners by the Canadian military be brought under the rule of both international and Canadian law.

Now how did all this start:

Dr. Attaran: I was asked about a year ago by the Law Society of Upper Canada (Ontario) to give a lecture at a symposium they’d planned on torture ... I sought to come up with something new and topical and my chosen subject was, “what steps is Canada taking to prevent torture in what it is currently engaged in, in Afghanistan?”

I began .. to ask the Department of National Defence what were they doing to forestall, to prevent torture occurring and I very quickly realized they were doing not anything — all the detainees we arrest in Afghanistan, we hand to the Afghans. The punch line is that the Afghan National Police (ANP) especially, but also other aspects of the Afghan national security apparatus, are torturers.

..It has been studied and affirmed by the United Nations Human Rights Committee, by the US State Department, and most damningly the Afghan Human Rights Commission, which is itself, a branch of the Afghan government. The Afghan government in effect, through the Human Rights Commission last year, published that the Afghan National Police—this is nearly a verbatim quote the ANP routinely torture persons in their custody, particularly to extort confessions. Now that’s the Afghan government talking about the Afghan police, so what it amounts to is that when we transfer from Canadian forces to the Afghan police, we’re transferring to self-confessed torturers. It’s as simple as that.

Now what happened after he started his investigation into what we did with Afghan prisoners, as his findings about the 3 abused men, were an incidental result of his investigation, there was NO mention or investigation of this prior by the military? This is the response he got from his first inquiry:

The.. initial response.. was- “you’re not entitled to know anything”... I even asked for a copy of the agreement that Canada had signed with Afghanistan—and I was told it’s not public, I couldn’t have it.. I did persist and said, “Excuse me, that agreement would be a treaty. It’s an agreement signed between two countries, ie., a treaty. Are you telling me Canada’s getting involved in secret treaties?” And I was told, “No, no—its not a treaty.” And I said, “Well as a law professor, I assure you, it is a treaty. I know what a treaty is, and this is a treaty, and it’s apparently secret.” And then all sorts of games were played defining it as “an arrangement” rather than a treaty, which is nonsense...So initially, there was no disclosure. The document finally only became public because it was leaked. And within days of it leaking, all of a sudden DND put it on its website...

So what is happening to Afghan detainees that canadian military personal round up?

the persons Canada is detaining and transferring are disappearing into an unknown juridical space where they have no legal representation; where Canada does not inspect or have knowledge of the safety, or lack of safety of their condition; and where the leading countries that might conduct—Afghanistan and the US—practice known torture, known extraordinary rendition, and essentially extra-judicial custody,

Can we say hyprocrites? As one just needs to consider the Arar case, and our now paying millions to him because the USA did the same thing to him, that Canadians are doing to Afghans. Look at how Canadians condemned the USA, for these same practises, and now we find our government is complict in the same thing.

Still more:

Ottawa silent on fate of captured terror suspects

No accounting for scores of detainees that have been handed to Americans, AfghansBy PAUL KORING

WASHINGTON -- Scores of terrorist suspects captured by Canadians have disappeared into the murky netherworld of Afghan and American prisons, but Ottawa refuses to say what has happened to them or even if it knows whether any have been tried, charged, or released, or how they are treated.

Some have apparently been freed by the Canadians who determined -- in a process not made clear -- that they didn't deserve to be handed over to the Afghan police. However, there is no accounting for them either, only the terse notations "fit for release" on medical forms. Others, dubbed "fit for transfer," disappear into Afghan prisons. Once there, there is no further Canadian oversight.

Canada's out-of-sight, out-of-mind approach means detainees are handed over to others as soon as possible, often within hours. Once gone, the Canadian government, in effect, washes its hands of further responsibility or accountability.

What does Amnesty International have to say? Well, needless to say it is a blight upon all Canadians.

The responsibility doesn't end when you hand someone over," said Hilary Homes, Amnesty International Canada's lead advocate on international justice, security and human rights.

The Canadian government admits it "has not done any follow-up" about the fate of detainees, she said in an interview, adding that the "entire detainee regime needs to be investigated."

And again Hillier and the CPC put a blight upon Canadians:

Canada's top general, Rick Hillier, who once called Taliban fighters "detestable murderers and scumbags," defends handing detainees over to Afghan authorities, despite international condemnation of human-rights abuse in its prisons and widespread police corruption.

But Ottawa refuses to account for what happens to detainees, either in Canadian Forces custody or after they are handed off to the Afghans.

Not only with that, but with openly breaking the agreement the former Canadian government signed with Afghans specifically in these important areas and indeed we are now apparently breaking the Geneva Convention as well. Here are the segments of the agreement being broken.

The Participants will treat detainees in accordance with the standards set out in

the Third Geneva Convention.

The International Committee of the Red Cross will have a right to visit detainees

at any time while they are in custody, whether held by the Canadian Forces or by

Afghanistan. Visits may be delayed by a Detaining Power only as an exceptional

and temporary measure for reasons of imperative military necessity.

The Participants will be responsible for maintaining accurate written records

accounting for all detainees that have passed through their custody. Such written

records should, at a minimum, contain personal information (as far as known or

indicated), gender, physical description and medical condition of the detainee,

and, subject to security considerations, the location and circumstances of capture.

Such written records will be available for inspection by the International

Committee of the Red Cross upon request. Copies of all records relating to the

detainee will be transferred to any subsequent Accepting Power should the

detainee be subsequently transferred. The originals of all records will be

retained by the Transferring Power.

Recognizing their obligations pursuant to international law to assure that

detainees continue to receive humane treatment and protections to the standards

set out in the Third Geneva Convention, the Participants, upon transferring a

detainee, will notify the International Committee of the Red Cross through

appropriate national channels.

Participants recognize the legitimate role of the Afghan Independent Human

Rights Commission within the territory of Afghanistan, including in regard to the

treatment of detainees, and undertake to cooperate fully with the Commission in

the exercise of its role.

No person transferred from the Canadian Forces to Afghan authorities will be

subject to the application of the death penalty.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/ar...rangement_e.pdf

It is quite obvious it is high time our military were pulled out of Afghanistan. Look at us, breaking a signed agreement with the Afghan people, and breaking international law and the Geneva Convention.

[Army Guy]

Poser:

Ah, nice try, no cigar. The facts on the ground say otherwise, but a nice bit of after the fact spin, and trying to cover tracks and nothing more. Update and more information:

Covering tracks, attempts on spin, give me a break here ,Are you saying that the toronto suns story is false ? What would be thier motive to post a false story??? Why do you have a problem with the fact that the military already investaged this incident and found no fault, that it was a non story. Is it your total lack of trust in our military or our government ?

Now how did all this start:

To say that Amir Attaran is no stranger to controversy is a bit of an understatement.

He's taken on the World Health Organization over malaria treatment, environmentalists over banning DDT and even Médecins sans frontières (Doctors Without Borders) over drug patents.

MR Attaran

Yes Mr Amir Attaran is a worldly humanitarian, and he does like controversy the above quote suggests that he's a busy guy. And before i get the "how dare a moniker speak" again the above quote came from the globe and mail"

But what everyone forgets is he has made an accusation, and even with all his investagation even himself is not 100% convinced that this abuse has occured...and with all the investagations now being done , todate thier has been no confirmation that this even happen...

the ANP routinely torture persons in their custody, particularly to extort confessions. Now that’s the Afghan government talking about the Afghan police, so what it amounts to is that when we transfer from Canadian forces to the Afghan police, we’re transferring to self-confessed torturers. It’s as simple as that.

Although your quote does not being tears to my eyes, it must tear your heart apart, to think that just a short while back that Canadians presured our government to stop handing over detainees and POW's to the americans and instead hand them over to the Afganis government. And instead of pionting the fingers at our selfs we find that the fingers are pionting at DND and our government.

So who's next in our list of finger pionting do we blame some of this on the International red cross, why have we not heard from them why have they not reported to the Canadian government of prisoners we have taken are being abused. Is that not part of thier mandate, prisoner wefare? But wait here is what they have said about our inquiries....

Jakob Kellenberger, president of the International Committee of the Red Cross, said last fall that Canadian troops in Afghanistan were respecting all the rules when taking prisoners. It would be disturbing, and surprising, if the inquiries found anything to the contrary.

international red cross

Now what happened after he started his investigation into what we did with Afghan prisoners, as his findings about the 3 abused men, were an incidental result of his investigation, there was NO mention or investigation of this prior by the military? This is the response he got from his first inquiry:

Well then the toronto sun story must be false, made up to capture our minds and put another spin on the story, much as you suggested...but is that not again'st the law "just asking"

At most Canada is guilty of is handing over prisoners to the Afganis government, where they may or may not be subjected to abuse,

According to Amnesty International, the U.S. military is known to maintain a prison at Bagram Air Base near Kabul and another at Kandahar Air Base. Unlike with Guantanamo, there has been no U.S. accounting of the prisoners held at those prisons. Nor is anything publicly known about what happens to captives handed over to the Afghan authorities.

If there is nothing made public according to Amnesty internation, then how or where is the proof that prisoners captured by Canadians are being abused...

So now what we build our own prisons, or start shipping them back to Canada, for trial and to serve there sentences...Or perhaps start putting presure on the Afganis government to stop abusing thier prisoners, but wait a minute was,nt it you going on and on about NATO trying to clone Afganis in our image , something about our colonist attitude, kind of speaking out of both sides of your mouth are you not, Why is it bad for NATO to try and assist this country in becoming a respectable nation but good when forcing them on human rights issues?

Not only with that, but with openly breaking the agreement the former Canadian government signed with Afghans specifically in these important areas and indeed we are now apparently breaking the Geneva Convention as well. Here are the segments of the agreement being broken

And now you are accusing the Canadian government of breaking a treaty, and the genva convention. Of course you have proof of that right? or your assuming with your god like powers the out come of all the ongoing investagations.

[Catchme]

You are discounting Amnestity Internationals calls for an investigation?

And now you are discounting what Canada's military heads are saying in Afghanistan?

If those, who the Canadian military is handing over, are being tortured and/or killed, which is what the Afghan human rights section of the government is saying that is happening, which the US state department is saying also, as well as the UN, then yes we are breaking our agreement with them and the Geneva Convention.

Obviously, the Canadian military is not happy with the conduct of their personal or they would not have made the statement they did today. Canadians should be concerned.

Cdn general urges troops to use restraint following civilian shootings

Brig.-Gen Tim Grant said Tuesday that he has spoken to his battle group commander about the rash of civilian shootings since fresh Canadian troops arrived in the region earlier this month.

"Every time that we injure a civilian, it is devastating to us, it's devastating to the families and it's something we have to stop," he told reporters following a change of command ceremony, where the 2nd Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment officially took over operations in Kandahar.

"It's a clear priority of mine that we reduce the number of rounds fired and that we protect the people as we go through the city, particularly," he said.

"I've already spoken to other senior officers in the task force to make sure that the leadership is playing a significant role in making sure that we use force only when absolutely necessary."

The military has acknowledged that shooting Afghan civilians, police officers and soldiers makes it a lot harder for Canadian troops to build good relations with the local population.

In the most recent shooting, the military says both the officer and the civilian were shot after they ignored warnings to stay away from Canadian troops. However, some Afghan police officers have contradicted that.

Canadian Military in Afganistan get spoken to and investigations continue

[Army Guy]

Poser:

You are discounting Amnestity Internationals calls for an investigation?

I'm not discounting anything just repeating what Amnestity Inter has said...they have no proof that prisoners that Canadians have capture are being abused, or are you painting everyone involved with priosoners be Afganis or US military is involved in abusing prisoners...

And now you are discounting what Canada's military heads are saying in Afghanistan?

In which way ?

If those, who the Canadian military is handing over, are being tortured and/or killed, which is what the Afghan human rights section of the government is saying that is happening, which the US state department is saying also, as well as the UN, then yes we are breaking our agreement with them and the Geneva Convention.

Again all they have said is that those 2 groups have abused prisoners, they do not say any where they have abused prisoners that Canadians have captured ...you have not provided any proof...you've made a big leap by suggesting that everyone involved with those 2 groups are guilty of prisoner abuse...but thats it..

Obviously, the Canadian military is not happy with the conduct of their personal or they would not have made the statement they did today. Canadians should be concerned.

No they are not, but your forgetting these guys have been on the ground for less than a week now...And this happens every tour rotation..And yes canadians should be concerned, but to what piont...canceling the mission packing up and going home , i don't think so...concerned enough to keep an eye on the situation yes i agree...

It would be a big mistake to further restrict our soldiers in thier use of ROE, the commander has to find a fine balance and maintain it.