Military investigates claim Canadians abused detainees

[Figleaf]

Sorry,i was rushed by some real life problems, A win for me, would mean seeing western forces starting to pull out because the security sitation would allow that, See locals in the market with out automatic wpns would be a good sign, it would also mean allowing more emphisis on the re constrution side. i think the most important aspect is getting the government depts large enough to run there own areas of responsiabilty, which would allow them to deal with other problems such as the drug trade and warlords.

I know this is hard to see with everything in the news , but everyday we are making progress just recently a unescorted media team has operated in the area around op madusa, without incident lucky or not it is a sign that this once Taliban dominated area is no longer controled by them. It's also going to be harder to see any progress this spring when the fighting resumes, i still think the Taliban are still a large concern in the south, and more fighting is expected. but they can not maintain this level for long periods of time...

So my time frame for seeing marked improvements will be around 2009. As for how long it will last after western forces pull out, is just a guess, Afgan still has alot of major issues to deal with before it starts to become stable...Pakistan is one, the drug and war lords is another. Those issues will also take years to solve but if we pulled out now we will never see peace for some time...

Thank you for your reply. The prospect you describe seems like a very sweeping and significant change for Afghanistan, even if the Taliban weren't part of the mix. Can it be achieved with current levels of action and expense? I'm not as sure as you are.

But beyond that, I still question why it should be Canadian lives and money spent on this exercise.

[White Doors]

But beyond that, I still question why it should be Canadian lives and money spent on this exercise

because we are not switzerland or Sweden. We belong and are active in the International community.

period.

[Canadian Blue]

Not to mention Catchme's claim that military members are inspired by Hitler, or Hitler apologists.

[Figleaf]

But beyond that, I still question why it should be Canadian lives and money spent on this exercise

because we are not switzerland or Sweden. We belong and are active in the International community.

So, are you postulating that the international community owes it to backward countries to fight off their internal barbarians and build them into developed states? Or is it just Afghanistan that deserves the sacrifices of the international community?

period.

Question mark.

[White Doors]

But beyond that, I still question why it should be Canadian lives and money spent on this exercise

because we are not switzerland or Sweden. We belong and are active in the International community.

So, are you postulating that the international community owes it to backward countries to fight off their internal barbarians and build them into developed states? Or is it just Afghanistan that deserves the sacrifices of the international community?

period.

Question mark.

Yes I am postulating that. The UN recently passed a motion last year indicating this. You might want to check it out, it was Paul martin's brainchild. 'a Duty to protect'.

As far as it happening often with the SC? Not likely, but it did in Afghanistan and so we are there.

End of story. Get used to it.

[Figleaf]

But beyond that, I still question why it should be Canadian lives and money spent on this exercise

because we are not switzerland or Sweden. We belong and are active in the International community.

So, are you postulating that the international community owes it to backward countries to fight off their internal barbarians and build them into developed states? Or is it just Afghanistan that deserves the sacrifices of the international community?

period.

Question mark.

Yes I am postulating that. The UN recently passed a motion last year indicating this. You might want to check it out, it was Paul martin's brainchild. 'a Duty to protect'.

As far as it happening often with the SC? Not likely, but it did in Afghanistan and so we are there.

End of story. Get used to it.

Okay, so you support international state activism. Now how should we apportion this duty among states of the world?

[Catchme]

Sorry,i was rushed by some real life problems, A win for me, would mean seeing western forces starting to pull out because the security sitation would allow that, See locals in the market with out automatic wpns would be a good sign, it would also mean allowing more emphisis on the re constrution side. i think the most important aspect is getting the government depts large enough to run there own areas of responsiabilty, which would allow them to deal with other problems such as the drug trade and warlords.

So my time frame for seeing marked improvements will be around 2009. As for how long it will last after western forces pull out, is just a guess, Afgan still has alot of major issues to deal with before it starts to become stable...Pakistan is one, the drug and war lords is another. Those issues will also take years to solve but if we pulled out now we will never see peace for some time...

Thank you for your reply. The prospect you describe seems like a very sweeping and significant change for Afghanistan, even if the Taliban weren't part of the mix. Can it be achieved with current levels of action and expense? I'm not as sure as you are.

But beyond that, I still question why it should be Canadian lives and money spent on this exercise.

It shouldn't be Canadian lives and money, and no it cannot be achieved and should never have been entered into.

the CIA disbanded its special unit created to track and exterminate Osama Bin Laden, a tacit acknowledgement that the situation had changed drastically since 9/11. So what is the function of Nato armies in Afghanistan. ‘Human Rights? Even conservative journalists in Britain (whose soldiers are being killed regularly) would laugh at any such assumption.

How did the Americans induce Nato in 2004 to become Hamid Karzai's mercenary army? What intelligence did the cabinet receive from Washington, where officials openly spoke of dumping Afghanistan on uppity Nato to teach it a lesson after the Balkan shambles?

…Every assessment I have heard suggests that the sort of campaign envisaged by the government in southern Afghanistan would require not 3,000 or even 10,000 troops, but over 100,000. Even the latter total has failed in Iraq, and Iraqis cannot hold a candle to Afghans for insurgent fanaticism.” (The Guardian, 5 July, 2006)

There is simply no excuse for the Nato presence in Afghanistan except that of pleasing Washington.

[Alexandra]

Okay, so you support international state activism. Now how should we apportion this duty among states of the world?

If you are including the NATO treaty commitment in 'international state activism' are you aware of the number of countries/state's military forces presently deployed to Afghanistan? If you are aware of this number then you have answered your own question. Or, was the question simply rhetoric on your part?

[geoffrey]

Okay, so you support international state activism. Now how should we apportion this duty among states of the world?

If you are including the NATO treaty commitment in 'international state activism' are you aware of the number of countries/state's military forces presently deployed to Afghanistan? If you are aware of this number then you have answered your own question. Or, was the question simply rhetoric on your part?

That's right, we signed a treaty that has us helping NATO in Afghanistan. We can't abandon that. The lefties all start crying when we want to give up Kyoto, "You'll make an international mockery of us if we don't make targets of a terrible socialist agreement!! But hell, let's run away from NATO upon the first time the strength of the treaty is tested!!!"

Hypocracy knows no bounds.

[Army Guy]

Figleaf:

Thank you for your reply. The prospect you describe seems like a very sweeping and significant change for Afghanistan, even if the Taliban weren't part of the mix. Can it be achieved with current levels of action and expense? I'm not as sure as you are.

The action that we have taken todate has been very sweeping, keep in mind NATO has just gotton serious about the south last year, already the taliban have been pushed out of areas altogether, or pushed to the sides. although still there it's in small numbers and they now longer control these areas. SO by 2009 anything can happen.

Well according to the senators report we can't, but they under estimate our militaries will to get the job done....Yes under current levels the job is not imposiable it will just take longer to achieve. as for expenses more cash is needed from every where, but in the same token they need a means of distributing it, perhaps instead of cash, equipment can be purchased such as entire water and drilling systems, construction equipment, ambulances, fire trucks, etc etc. it's hard to scim profits off equipment already purchased, then delivered to a location.

Truthfully it's all a pipe dream until more support is given to the mission, with out it , it will, as all issues fall off the fore front and onto yesterdays news pile....meaning all our effort, cash, and lives will be for nothing... And we will be discussing the next new fad or mission, and why we are there, sounded like a good idea at the time, what we need is to pick a mission and stay focused... And the people of Canada have to come to the conclusion that making peace, or rebuilding a nation is not a fast food service, it takes a very long time bils of dollars, and lots of lives...and if we are not willing to invest all that into each mission then we should concentrate on strictly defending our nation, it would be alot cheaper in the long run...

[Catchme]

Apparently, if it takes all that, the "peoples' who country we are trying to rebuild in the image we want it to be, really do not want us to do so.

It is amazing, that some think the west has the right to try and make other countries be what they want them to be as opposed to how the peoples of the actual country want it to be. Thought we had learned from our colonialistic mistakes long ago.

[White Doors]

Well the afghan's WANT us there as has been shown to you numerous times by numerous polls.

But no matter to you. Power wants them out so: 1) The Canadian soldiers asre inspired by Hitler

2) Canadian Soldiers and Taliban terrorists are morally equivelent and 3) Damned the Afghani femisists - let them rot.

See how radical ideology can warp the mind? (again in this case)

[Figleaf]

Okay, so you support international state activism. Now how should we apportion this duty among states of the world?

If you are including the NATO treaty commitment in 'international state activism' are you aware of the number of countries/state's military forces presently deployed to Afghanistan? If you are aware of this number then you have answered your own question. Or, was the question simply rhetoric on your part?

I supported our involvement in Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban to discharge NATO obligations after our ally was attacked. It seems to me that mission is over and the business of establishing some kind of shangri-la in the Himalayan foothill is beyond the scope of our alliance duties.

[Catchme]

Well the afghan's WANT us there as has been shown to you numerous times by numerous polls.

But no matter to you. Power wants them out so: 1) The Canadian soldiers asre inspired by Hitler

2) Canadian Soldiers and Taliban terrorists are morally equivelent and 3) Damned the Afghani femisists - let them rot.

See how radical ideology can warp the mind? (again in this case)

Yes white doors, it is obvious that radical ideology so warps some minds so much that they cannot grasp the fact that Afghans want the USA et al out.

Umm no, Afghans do not want us, what has been shown is that the western backed Karzi government wants us there. Much proof has been provided here that Afghans themselves want ALL occupiers gone. This is also proven by the continued increased support for those fighting to get the occupiers out of Afghanstan, by regular Afghans themselves.

Again, the Afghan feminists DO NOT want us there either, so please do stop trying to expropriate their voices. It is terrible that a western male would try to steal Afghan women's voices to support their colonialistic opinions.

RAWA is the oldest political/social organization of Afghan women struggling for peace, freedom, democracy and women's rights in fundamentalism-blighted Afghanistan since 1977.

Five years ago, the US and allies attacked Afghanistan in the name of bringing "Human Rights", "Democracy", and "Freedom" to the war-torn country. The Taliban regime fell and Hamid Karzai's puppet regime, which included the world-known Northern Alliance criminals, or as UN envoy Mahmoud Mestri said, "the bandit gangs", took over in the name of a fake democracy. However, today, the deceitful policies of Mr. Karzai and his Western guardians have brought Afghanistan to a very critical situation in which disaster is a ticking time bomb that can explode any minute. Treason and mockery have efficiently been used under the name of "democracy" and "freedom" in these five years, and the human rights situation in Afghanistan is a product of the painful deception of the warlord led government.

Northern Alliance criminals backed by the US have their own local and barbaric governments. Just the increasing amount of women who commit suicides by burning themselves can be the best example of a human rights violation in Afghanistan. According to UNICEF, 65% of 50,000 widows in Kabul think that committing suicide is the only option they have. Northern Alliance crooks raped an 11 year old girl, Sanuber, and traded her with a dog.

The disgraceful defeat and embarrassing situation in the war in Iraq left no option for the US except to illustrate Afghanistan as a success, whether it results in pain and suffering for the Afghan people or not....

The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) strongly supports the anti-war movement which grows day by day all around the world and becomes a strong force against the war-mongering policies of the US and her Allies.

http://www.rawa.org/events/dec10-06_e.htm

[Figleaf]

Figleaf:

Thank you for your reply. The prospect you describe seems like a very sweeping and significant change for Afghanistan, even if the Taliban weren't part of the mix. Can it be achieved with current levels of action and expense? I'm not as sure as you are.

The action that we have taken todate has been very sweeping, keep in mind NATO has just gotton serious about the south last year, already the taliban have been pushed out of areas altogether, or pushed to the sides. although still there it's in small numbers and they now longer control these areas. SO by 2009 anything can happen.

Well according to the senators report we can't, but they under estimate our militaries will to get the job done....Yes under current levels the job is not imposiable it will just take longer to achieve. as for expenses more cash is needed from every where, but in the same token they need a means of distributing it, perhaps instead of cash, equipment can be purchased such as entire water and drilling systems, construction equipment, ambulances, fire trucks, etc etc. it's hard to scim profits off equipment already purchased, then delivered to a location.

Truthfully it's all a pipe dream until more support is given to the mission, with out it , it will, as all issues fall off the fore front and onto yesterdays news pile....meaning all our effort, cash, and lives will be for nothing... And we will be discussing the next new fad or mission, and why we are there, sounded like a good idea at the time, what we need is to pick a mission and stay focused... And the people of Canada have to come to the conclusion that making peace, or rebuilding a nation is not a fast food service, it takes a very long time bils of dollars, and lots of lives...and if we are not willing to invest all that into each mission then we should concentrate on strictly defending our nation, it would be alot cheaper in the long run...

That's just it. I see correcting Afghanistan as beyond the capabilities Canada alone should reasonably expected to deploy, so (absent a serious commitment from NATO or the UN) I think we should stop now, before more value is poored down the sink-hole.

[White Doors]

Umm no, Afghans do not want us, what has been shown is that the western backed Karzi government wants us there. Much proof has been provided here that Afghans themselves want ALL occupiers gone. This is also proven by the continued increased support for those fighting to get the occupiers out of Afghanstan, by regular Afghans themselves

Please provide a POLL that proves this as I have provided many that say the opposite. Sorry, i will take a scientific poll over your cherry picked links.

thanks!

[Catchme]

There was one poll white doors, that is hardly representative of the facts on the ground, outside of Kandahar.

There are many more Afghan voices and occurances that prove the 1 poll presented is in fact scurious.

To try and expropriate the voice of Afghan women, to support a colonialistic ideology, was a incorrect thing to do, and I see you have ignored their voice and other Afghan voices yet again, that are stating the USA and partners should leave .

[White Doors]

Colonialistic policy?

Ignore the voices on the ground? We have a soldier that posts here FROM Afghanistan and you either refer to him and his colleagues as Nazi's or ignore him altogether.

And I'm the one ignoring voices on the ground?

haha

You ignore whatever doesn't fit into your views.

How sad a life you must lead.

Oh, please regale us again with your military experience Poser.

hahahaha

[Catchme]

Colonialistic policy?

Ignore the voices on the ground? We have a soldier that posts here FROM Afghanistan and you either refer to him and his colleagues as Nazi's or ignore him altogether.

And I'm the one ignoring voices on the ground?

haha

You ignore whatever doesn't fit into your views.

How sad a life you must lead.

Oh, please regale us again with your military experience Poser.hahahaha

Yes colonialistic, going into another nation and telling them how YOU want them to be, as opposed to how they want to be, is colonialistic.

Excuse me, but I prefer to hear/read the actual peoples whose country is being occupied over an entity with a moniker saying some things about how we should stay in Afghanistan.

Everything else within your post is a nonsensical personal attack that has no bearing on the topic.

[White Doors]

Yes colonialistic, going into another nation and telling them how YOU want them to be, as opposed to how they want to be, is colonialistic.

That's funny.. I thought they had like, a free vote and, like, they elected politicians who then, like, created their own constitution...

~which you rail away about because it is too 'Islamist' for your liking - apparently you want us to be more 'colonialistic'.~

See catchme, the more you lie, the more you get caught.

[Catchme]

There has been much proof posted, here and it is available at the RAWA showing that the elections were a travesty. Too much to be discounted as a matter of fact.

Frankly, I am not the one railing here.

[Canadian Blue]

Didn't the UN oversee the election's, as well from what I've read the Afghan's want us there, and RAWA isn't the sole voice of the Afghan people Catchme.

[Army Guy]

Excuse me, but I prefer to hear/read the actual peoples whose country is being occupied over an entity with a moniker saying some things about how we should stay in Afghanistan

I think the RAWA needs to give credit where credit is do, i've been to there site and they have yet to report anything postive about anything....Using some of your own sources you are so fond of this is what the RAWA had to say about life under Taliban rule....pretty grim...

RAWA

RAWA

And yet under NATO command conditions for the most part have improved over 500 % but no thank you no acknowledgement, just finding more faults this time about NATO...

I found this article, about the RAWA, describe as a dramatic and militant afgan feminist group.

report on RAWA.

[Catchme]

Guess you're failing to take into consideration any women speaking out ih Afghanistan, would be considered radical.

And I cannot believe believe anyone would go so far as to try and discredit RAWA, in order to support Canadians being in Afghanistan.

How dare, a monkier here at mapleleaf forums, try to silence, and discredit, the voices of Afghan women who have been fighting and dying for their freedom since 1977?

[weaponeer]

In case one still harboured thoughts that the Taliban is open to reason and negotiation. This is available to any media outlet that has access toReuters news wire - let's see how many pick it up.

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Taliban flee battle using children as shields - NATO

Reuters (UK), via AlertWeb.net, 14 Feb 07

Article Link

KABUL, Feb 14 (Reuters) - Taliban fighters used children as human shields to flee heavy fighting this week during an operation by foreign and Afghan forces to clear rebels from around a key hydrolectric dam, NATO said on Wednesday.

The Taliban have used human shields before, but never children, local residents say.

The fighting occurred during Operation Kryptonite on Monday, an offensive to clear insurgents from the Kajaki Dam area in southern Helmand province to allow repairs to its power plants and the installation of extra capacity.

"During this action ... Taliban extremists resorted to the use of human shields. Specifically, using local Afghan children to cover as they escaped out of the area," Colonel Tom Collins, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) told reporters in Kabul.

NATO and foreign forces ran into heavy small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire during the clash, but suffered no casualties, Collins said.

The fighting occurred in an area where 700 mainly foreign fighters, including Chechens, Pakistanis and Uzbeks, arrived from Pakistan this week to reinforce Taliban guerrillas targeting the dam, according to local officials.

Earler on Wednesday, NATO said it had killed a Taliban leader in a pre-dawn airstrike between the dam and the nearby town of Musa Qala, to the west, which the rebels have held for 13 days.

NATO said there were no civilian casualties, but local tribal leader Haji Sultan said several villagers were killed.

Helmand Governor Asadullah Wafa would not comment.

The Kajaki dam has seen major fighting in recent weeks between the Taliban and NATO forces, mainly British and Dutch.

NATO-led forces have been conducting operations in the area for several months to allow reconstruction on the dam and the power transmission lines to boost output, after fighting halted repair and development work last year.

The Taliban cannot destroy the dam, which would also flood a large area of the Helmand Valley, but its tactics are aimed at making it too unsafe for work to go ahead.

On Tuesday, two Afghan army officers and and a police officer were killed in a joint attack with NATO forces on a bomb-making operation in southern Uruzgan province, just to the north of Musa Qala and Kajaki.

Ten suspected insurgents were captured in the operation, NATO said in a statement.