Jordan says Arar lied

[scribblet]

I couldn't find the thread on this, so started a new one.

Did anyone else hear CBC reporting that Jordan says Arar purchased a ticket to Jordan then hired a ride to Syria. Jordan is sticking to their story.

Can't edit the title, should be Jordan says Arar lied.

[Black Dog]

Mr. Arar was first taken to Jordan aboard a U.S. government flight before being transported overland to Syria. Senior Jordanian intelligence officials told a UN human-rights investigator that Mr. Arar arrived as a normal passenger aboard a commercial Royal Jordanian Airlines flight. The Jordanians said Mr. Arar could not remain in their country because he was on a terrorist watch list.

Mr. Arar, the Jordanians claimed, asked to be driven to Syria.

As you can see, there's already discrepencies between the stories. The U.S. flew Arar to Jordan, this much we know for a fact, yet the Jordanians claim or claimed otherwise. That, combined with the fact that Arar fled Syria to duck military service in the first place makes this account less than credible.

[geoffrey]

So really Arar has every single person other than him calling BS on this one.

I don't think he should get a dime until some real evidence of his ordeal and Canadian responsibility is available.

[Robert777]

I think there is more than meets the eye on this case. I would love to see what the US has on this Arab. I have heard that he has some shadey friends....meaning contacts within the radical Islamic movement.

I think his wife should change her burka too .

Can't trust a man that forces his wife to wear a burka

PROUD TO BE A REFORMER, BUY A GUN AND PO A LIBERAL! :angry:

[August1991]

Mr. Arar was first taken to Jordan aboard a U.S. government flight before being transported overland to Syria. Senior Jordanian intelligence officials told a UN human-rights investigator that Mr. Arar arrived as a normal passenger aboard a commercial Royal Jordanian Airlines flight. The Jordanians said Mr. Arar could not remain in their country because he was on a terrorist watch list.

Mr. Arar, the Jordanians claimed, asked to be driven to Syria.

I heard the Jordanian MFA rep say the same on CBC radio this morning. Is it believable that the Jordanians offered Arar a car to get to the Syrian border? Why did the Americans put Arar on a Royal Jordanian flight? Heck, why would the Americans put a terrorist suspect on a flight to Syria - one of the three rogue countries?

Here's my own call on this. The Americans just wanted him out of the country and knowing that Canada didn't want him, put him on the next flight back to Syria - his other country of citizenship. The easiest flight was to Amman.

In Amman, Arar figured he'd go home to Syria and sort this out.

He said after yesterday's briefing that his primary concern -- an explanation as to why Mr. Arar, who is both a Canadian and Syrian citizen, was bundled aboard a chartered jet and sent to Damascus rather than returned to Canada -- has not been given.

If you look inside a Canadian passport on the back page, you will see this paragraph:

"Canadians may have dual nationality by birth, descent, marriage or naturalization. They are advised that while in the country of their other nationality they may be subject to all its laws and obligations, including military service."

For the Syrian government, Arar was a Syrian citizen. Arar knew this, indeed he had never renounced his Syrian citizenship. Arar was stopped in New York because he had vacationed in Tunisia and was returning to Canada.

Maintaining dual citizenship is a worthy insurance policy but it comes at a cost.

If I were Arar, I would donate this $10 million award to a charity. I'd pay my lawyers but I wouldn't touch a cent.

[Remiel]

What would be the point? Then someone would start a rumour that said charity had links to terrorism and the whole point of the gesture would be ruined.

[madmax]

Here's my own call on this. The Americans just wanted him out of the country and knowing that Canada didn't want him, put him on the next flight back to Syria - his other country of citizenship. The easiest flight was to Amman.

In Amman, Arar figured he'd go home to Syria and sort this out.

I am sure it happen just that way.

Are you really that naive? Because that would put you in the same position as you claim Arar to be.

[geoffrey]

What evidence do you have madmax that it occured differently?

Let's see, we have, the Canadian consular officals that visited Arar, the Red Cross officials that visited Arar (neither saw any evidence of torture)... now we have the Jordanian (a crediable nation) officals saying Arar left Jordan willingly.

And you've got Arar, who stands to gain millions from this, despite having no permenant damage, and being completely able to work starting today (but he's going to get his PhD first on our dollar...).

The crediability issues lie with Arar, and I still can't grasp why Harper would have settled this out of court. It may have been an attempt to win over some votes with whatever community Arar hangs out with, but I think it'll backfire with more and more information becoming available that Arar is simply a money hungery opportunist.

[Fortunata]

No matter what you WANT to believe because it fits into your ideology or anti-Mulim or Arar theories, the US has not denied putting him on a special plane, which was tracked by the way, and sending him off to the middle east. I have no idea why Jordon is playing this game (how does it benefit them other than maybe not wanting to be shown to be a landing point for torture victims?) when facts so show they are lying.

[madmax]

What evidence do you have madmax that it occured differently?

Let's see, we have, the Canadian consular officals that visited Arar, the Red Cross officials that visited Arar (neither saw any evidence of torture)... now we have the Jordanian (a crediable nation) officals saying Arar left Jordan willingly.

Jordan a credible nation? Jordan fights Islamic terrorism same as Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Algeria, Tunis, Morroco, Pakistan (Well, these guys go after the ones that want to kill Mushy and continue to support Islamic Terrorism vs fight it), and formerly Iraq, only there having a hell of a time today. If Jordan was to transport Arar to a willing Syria, whom at that time were trying to get in the US good books , then Jordan will do as requested by the United States. Jordan has no reason to expose their own complicity in the Arar affair and would be stupid to do so.

If you are suggesting that Arar was not tortured, and that the Consular officials, believe that Syria Doesn't torture prisoners, then feel free to believe such.

Regardless of whether Arar benefits or not, even if he didn't get a penny from us, I believe that the Syrian Government should be held accountable, for their actions. We didn't torture him, our RCMP were incompetent.

Geoffrey, you and August1991 are free to believe and discuss how Arar ended up in Syria.

[jefferiah]

No matter what you WANT to believe because it fits into your ideology or anti-Mulim or Arar theories, the US has not denied putting him on a special plane, which was tracked by the way, and sending him off to the middle east. I have no idea why Jordon is playing this game (how does it benefit them other than maybe not wanting to be shown to be a landing point for torture victims?) when facts so show they are lying.

But the thing is Fortunata I think he is making some good points. The US has not denied putting him on a plane, but they have not said that Canada was a major determining factor in this, and Wilkins has even gone so far as to say that they decided on other information. Now you could you say that Wilkins is lying to cover an American mistake, but then you are theorizing without evidence. Now Geoffrey and others are pointing out that Arar never had any physical signs of this torture on his body. Now, if you came and told me you were tortured by someone I would not ask you to show me any evidence of it. I would accept your word. But if you came and asked me for several million dollars in restitution I will say "Well you better show me some scars then!" As rude as that might sound to a person who may have been tortured, its necessary to be shrewd. I think this is a good point they are making. It does not mean that they hate him because he is Muslim. It means they are not giving him an easy ride simply because he is Muslim.

[jefferiah]

We have Wilkins and Jordan calling BS as Geoffrey says. That is not something to be ignored. I cannot really tell you whether Arar is telling the truth or not. I dont think we have seen any evidence of it, except that Justice O'Connor (is that correct?) ruled that he was. But I think it is ridiculous to sue Canada for it, when essentially what happened was the RCMP shared with US officials the fact that they had some suspicions about this guy. That's a far cry from being responsible for his torture. But he won and that is over and done with.

What I find extremely ridiculous is the pressure Layton put on the Gov to have them make the US take Arar off their list. Now this is not a Canadian issue. Who America has on their lists is an American issue, and thats not Layton's concern. If Arar himself doesnt like it, he can take that up with the US. I think this must have been very very embarrassing for the Gov to have to ask US to take Arar off their list....the knew the answer we be no and that it was out of their jurisdiction anyway.

[madmax]

It means they are not giving him an easy ride simply because he is Muslim.

Why?

[jefferiah]

It means they are not giving him an easy ride simply because he is Muslim.

Why?

I think you misunderstood that sentence. Read it again.

[B. Max]

I couldn't find the thread on this, so started a new one.

Did anyone else hear CBC reporting that Jordan says Arar purchased a ticket to Jordan then hired a ride to Syria. Jordan is sticking to their story.

Can't edit the title, should be Jordan says Arar lied.

I heard an interview with the UN official this week who broke the story.

Looks like we've be taken for a ride again. If this is true, Harper had better step down.

[jefferiah]

Don't side with a perceived underdog just because he is an underdog.

[madmax]

What I find extremely ridiculous is the pressure Layton put on the Gov to have them make the US take Arar off their list. Now this is not a Canadian issue. Who America has on their lists is an American issue, and thats not Layton's concern.

This is not Layton

Wilkins says Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day is off side with his efforts and should back off because a U.S. review determined Arar should remain on ...

That is a government Minister, Stockwell Day is able to make his own decisions.

This also is not Layton

Mike Blanchfield, CanWest News Service

Published: Friday, January 26, 2007

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Stephen Harper vowed to press “all levels” of the U.S. government to remove Maher Arar from a security watch list......We have articulated that (Arar’s case) at all levels of the government, up to an including the president and we will continue to do so,” Harper said

That is Stephen Harper the Prime Minister of Canada. He too, can make his own decisions.

[Fortunata]

Now this is not a Canadian issue. Who America has on their lists is an American issue, and thats not Layton's concern. If Arar himself doesnt like it, he can take that up with the US. I think this must have been very very embarrassing for the Gov to have to ask US to take Arar off their list....the knew the answer we be no and that it was out of their jurisdiction anyway.

It's a Canadian issue if it is a Canadian that our government perceives is being unfairly treated. That's what our government is supposed to do - protect it's citizens. And if it causes them embarrassment they shouldn't be government.

[jefferiah]

Acutally Layton and others pressed Harper to do so. I think it's safe to say without their demand he would not have had to have asked. And no, it is not a Canadian issue. How one of our citizens is treated in Canada is a Canadian issue, whether or not America wants to let him in or not is not a Canadian issue. If you throw a party in your own house and do not send an invitation to someone it is not my business to tell you you should have invited him.

[jefferiah]

Simply put Canada has no say in who the US of A puts on an "American" watch list. Thats an American issue.

[geoffrey]

Simply put Canada has no say in who the US of A puts on an "American" watch list. Thats an American issue.

Nor can we intervene when a Syrian get's deported to Syria... which didn't even happen it seems anyways.

[Fortunata]

Nor can we intervene when a Syrian get's deported to Syria... which didn't even happen it seems anyways.

Why would you choose to believe Jordan over your own country? The US does not deny shipping Arar by air. Are they lying too? I know it fits with what you would like to believe but Jordon isn't exactly a credible country. Believing Jordan is like believing Iran when they say they didn't torture Zhara Kazemi to death.

[margrace]

If the American policy is so credable, then someone should explain to me all the fuss about our border security while the Mexican border is virtually ignored. If there are terrorists wanting to get into the US all they have to do is go to Mexico or get on a boat from Cuba complaining about Castro.

What a bunch of hypocrits. Remember Fortunata there are American moles on this and every other site that stands up for Canada

[madmax]

Acutally Layton and others pressed Harper to do so. I think it's safe to say without their demand he would not have had to have asked.

Layton certainly did bring it up. Others also pressed the government to do so. But the Prime Minister of Canada and his Ministers determine the issues that they are going to press on the US. Layton doesn't need Harpers permission to bring up an issue with the US. He has done just that in the past. But Stockwell Day does need Harpers Permission. And Harper is the Prime Minister of Canada whom has the best relations with the US President. Harper would not risk his credibility with President Bush, over the words of Jack Layton. And Jack Layton didn't have Harper in an Armbar.

Just because you don't like your Prime Ministers actions, don't go blaming others. You disagree with Harper and Day and you are not alone.

And no, it is not a Canadian issue. How one of our citizens is treated in Canada is a Canadian issue, whether or not America wants to let him in or not is not a Canadian issue. If you throw a party in your own house and do not send an invitation to someone it is not my business to tell you you should have invited him.

I share a similar opinion to Wilkens, particularly with the public way the US government was attacked by our government over the matter. They should have held these talks behind closed doors. And we would not want the US telling us whom to let into our country.

That said, there are other factors to consider. I know a number of people barred from the US for reasons far less than being accused of terrorist links. I have seen the chaos that can be caused when travelling around the globe.

Our government has a right to inquire and they do as do the lawyers, and there are thousands of cases on any given day that people are trying to rectify. But they aren't made public, or made to look like demands upon the US government.

[watching&waiting]

How can so many people be this stupid? It would seem that there must be a pill to make them this half witted as some used to be fairly open thinkers, and now all I see is rampant stuipity galoping in this thread. It would be very usual for Jordan to send a willing passenger to Syria, especially when he has a Canadian passport. So just on that one point all this is total BS. The people who would run with this are to be looked upon as intellectually castrated beings. This whole thread is so openly wrong and misleading from facts that it makes one wonder at those who actually would waste a moments time other then reading it.

I will not waste any more time with it, other then to say think, think, think before you spout off in this.