Radical Feminism

[Black Dog]

I understand BD, that you think no one is saying it's ok for women to abuse men, but humor me and try this one time. While watching television, when you notice a woman being physically aggressive, or outright verbally or physically abusive towards a man, imagine the role reversed. It struck me as odd when watching a comedy show it was perfectly ok, in fact humourous, for a woman to abuse a man.

Media depictions of gender roles are often problematic. And, as I said, I don't like portrayals of consequense-free f on m violence anymore than you do. I must point out, however, that media depictions of violence against women (often in highly sexualized and brutal forms) is still quite prevelant. Link

A woman thrashes in a cage, layers of duct tape blinding her, a rag gagging her, as her faceless captor's male hands grab her fingers to clip her bloodied nails. Another is chained up in her basement in a dog collar, courtesy of her husband. Still another lies paralyzed by venomous spider bites as a masked figure rapes her.

All three are victims of an increasingly violent and disturbing serial killer: TV's procedural drama. The white-hot genre reinvented by Law & Order and further popularized by CSI has birthed a trio of new fall shows — Criminal Minds and Close to Home on CBS and Killer Instinct on Fox — featuring plots that reach distressing levels of brutality against women. ''I haven't seen pure gruesomeness like this on TV before,'' says Jeffrey Sconce, an associate professor in Northwestern University's radio, TV, and film department, who viewed fall pilots for ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY.

Watch 5 minutes of Jerry Springer. It's mostly evident there, with the scum of the earth they drag in (when it's not actors). You'll see women going all out, slapping, scratching and punching men, and more often than not the men just turn around and run away because it's not at all acceptable for them to strike back. Yet it seems to be fair, although uncouth, for the woman to go all out beating on him.

I don't think you're going to convince me that Springer guests are a good indicator of common social beliefs or values.

You'll have to convince me that the double-standard doesn't exist because I think pop-culture constantly shows examples of how it does exist.

I'm confused. Does the double standard exists in pop culture alone or does it reflect real life? Or does the pop culture image promote a real-world double standard?

Because when I say there is no double standard, I'm saying that, in the real world, no one seriously thinks it's okay for women to assault men.

Thinking about it, I'm not saying there are no anti-women views in society. I guess, my conclusion, would be that sex really doesn't matter. There's anti-men and anti-women and I think they're both prevalent. What I think it comes down to is respect. There's a serious problem with respect for one another.

But let me ask you this: what's a bigger problem; women slapping men on TV for comic effect or men actually beating women in real life?

[Catchme]

Was discussing this thread with my partner of 27 years, and how some are presenting that reverse sexism is happening. he agress that it is. I find Drea's points of if a women hits nothing happens physically serious, but if a man does, it is serious. But I agree I do not approve of violence towards either gender.

Having said that, I am not sure if it is reverse sexism, or simply the existing gender sexism that is also restructive to males.

I will use his example to me.

A few years back on the job, he works in a planner mill pushing buttons, it of course is a manly man setting.

But his formun, a male, actually sexually harrassed him, and kept coming up and putting his arm around him. Until my husband freaked on him and told to stay away from him. However, as he is a man, he was told by his union and the mill management to just suck it up and move along. If it had been a woman, he feels sure something would've been done.

Something to think about.

[Black Dog]

I tend to shudder at the term "reverse sexism." From a pedantic standpoint, sexism is commonly defined as discrimination based on gender, so "reverse sexism" isn't really possible. IOW: if a man is discriminated against because he's a man, that's plain sexism.

From an academic standpoint, sexism isn't just discrimination: discrimination based on gender is merely a manifestation of sexism, which really (and I'm speaking loosely here) is the system which perpetuates through culture, and/or legislative means, narrow gender roles. For example, the classic trope: "women are emotional, men are logical." I made a bit of a hash of it, but I think that's the gist.

[margrace]

A Canadian study released on women's harressment in the workplace says that it is the women who are in what men consider their jobs who are being harressed. It has nothing to do with sexism. Plain and simply men cannot stand the heat. The little woman should be either pregnant or in the kichen under men's control where she can be kept out of sight.

[cybercoma]

As a matter of pride, I don't believe men report violence perpetrated against them by women. I also believe, due to social "norms", they don't even recognize it. A gf flying off the handle and slapping a man, is the same as a man flying off he handle and slapping his gf. The depictions on TV for comedic effect of a woman slapping a man would have the opposite effect if the roles were reversed. People would be horrified to witness a man slapping a woman and laughing about it. The average reaction to such things indicates that it's ok for women to slap and abuse men in real life, since it is acceptable as comedy on television. Moreso than comedy, some women are applauded for taking such actions, whereas a man would most certainly always be condemned.

As far as rape and brutal violence being depicted on television and in film, the media is just reflecting the way things are in real life. It's very rare that you hear about a serial killing women that tortures and rapes her victims. Psychotic killers are an exception, something glorified in the media when the police happen upon one of these cases. I don't feel it indicates a level of social acceptance towards sexism, as the general reaction while watching such a thing is that of disgust. You don't cheer on the killer as he tortures his victim. You're meant to be revolted. However, when a female partner of a man slaps him, berates him or otherwise abuses him, she's seen as being powerful and a role model.

[Remiel]

That reminds me of a situation in my OAC Law class that arose. We were watching... Verdict, I think. There is a scene in there in which the main character, the plaintiffs lawyer, walks into a bar and slugs the woman he was involved with, who betrayed his clients to the corporation or business they were suing for wrongdoing. My teacher (who was a woman), asks us if that would be changed were the movie to be remade, and should it be changed. I (mostly alone, I think), made the argument that it should be left as it was. I pointed out that if it were a man who betrayed them, and the lawyer had punched him, he would have been applauded. The issue was not a man hitting a woman, it was a person hitting a selfish betrayer. If it was wrong, it was because one person hit another, not because a man hit a woman.

[Live From China]

But then, according to your previous tsatements, rape is not a women's issue because not all women have been raped.

Of course, I never said this.

In fact, it may be that most rapes actually occur in prison. And that they are much more vastly underreported than on "the outside." Of course, the reasons for this are obvious: snitches or rats are much more severely dealth with in a prison environment.

According to Stephen Donaldson, president of Stop Prison Rape, more than 290,000 male prisoners are assaulted each year. Prison rape, says Donaldson in a New York Times opinion piece, "is an entrenched tradition." Donaldson, who was himself a victim of prison rape twenty years ago when he was incarcerated for antiwar activities, has calculated that there may be as many as 45,000 rapes every day in our prison population of 1.2 million men. The number of rapes is vastly higher than the number of victims because the same men are often attacked repeatedly. Many of the rapes are "gang bangs" repeated day after day. To report such a rape is a terribly dangerous thing to do, so these rapes may be the most underreported of all. No one knows how accurate Donaldson's figures are. They seem incredible to me. But the tragic and neglected atrocities he is concerned about are not the kind whose study attracts grants from the Ford or Ms. foundations. If he is anywhere near right the incidence of male rape would be as high or higher than that of female rape

From: http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

Also see:

Stephen Donaldson, "The Rape Crisis Behind Bars," New York Times, December 29, 1993, p. A11. See also Donaldson, "Letter to the Editor" New York Times, August 24, 1993. See, too, Wayne Wooden and Jay Parker, Men Behind Bars: Sexual Exploitation in Prison (New York: Plenum Press, 1982); Anthony Sacco, ed., Male Rape: A Casebook of Sexual Aggressions (New York: AMS Press, 1982); and Daniel Lockwood, Prison Sexual Violence (New York: Elsevier, 1980).

Switching topics:

If it was wrong, it was because one person hit another, not because a man hit a woman.

I think this is the view that most people hold. It really doesn't matter who hit whom. If a man hits a woman, it is wrong. If a woman strikes a man, it is wrong. Hell, if my child punches me (even though she or he doesn't hurt me), it is wrong.

[jefferiah]

Actually there is a problem with the term reverse-discrimination! It implies that discrimination has a direction from which it is supposed to flow. And yep women do it too. I have heard women talking about men who do not measure up to macho standards as pathetic and poke fun at them for being whimpy. Hmmm so I dont know if all this male female role stuff is such a one way street. Anyhow.

[Melanie_]

I think this is the view that most people hold. It really doesn't matter who hit whom. If a man hits a woman, it is wrong. If a woman strikes a man, it is wrong. Hell, if my child punches me (even though she or he doesn't hurt me), it is wrong.

And yet, we protect the right of an adult to hit a child.

[Catchme]

I tend to shudder at the term "reverse sexism." From a pedantic standpoint, sexism is commonly defined as discrimination based on gender, so "reverse sexism" isn't really possible. IOW: if a man is discriminated against because he's a man, that's plain sexism.

From an academic standpoint, sexism isn't just discrimination: discrimination based on gender is merely a manifestation of sexism, which really (and I'm speaking loosely here) is the system which perpetuates through culture, and/or legislative means, narrow gender roles. For example, the classic trope: "women are emotional, men are logical." I made a bit of a hash of it, but I think that's the gist.

Well you did better explaining what I was getting at than me, so do not think you made a hash of it.

For me, feminism is not just a female liberation from anrrowly defined roles for females but liberation fo rmen as well.

Example being, back in the 80's, when BC was having lay offs and downsizings, we decided that instead of my husband finding a new job at a very low wage, we would be better off if he stayed home as a househusband. As, I was able to have the higher income. Doing this decreased our; day care expenses, weekly cleaning costs, grocery and hydro bills. It did not take long before we figured it out that we were actually saving money with him being at home. However, both of our extended families had a very hard time coping with this positive and well thought out action of ours.

Their comments were along the lines of; him being a lazy *****, how dare he rely on a woman for supporting him and the family, what kind of role model was he being for the children, etc. In the meantime, he did all the housework (light and heavy), all the meals and baking, canning, the laundry including hanging clothes on the line instead of using the dryer, he had a huge garden each of the 3 years he stayed at home, in fact he did more as househusband than I would've have done if I was the one staying at home. But it did not seem to matter, we were not living a "normal sexist" lifestyle and I believe they were threatened by our breaking of traditional and narrow gender roles.

[frogs]

One of the first necessities of adulthood, is to cut all negative "ties" to family and friends. Either they are supportive or disposable. Don't like it, but it's necessary. A quicksand thing.

The feminism thing has helped women in some ways, but has set women way, way, backwards progressively speaking. The "feminists" that we tend to hear from endorse "abuse" constantly, and then say that it's wrong to abuse women. Many young girls (and some boys) have bought into this abuse. Public endorsement of abuse is contageous among the younger population. The future for this scenerio is that all men will be in jail, and all women will have to pay for their stay. No winners here.

One of the greatest feminists (who wasn't a feminist) was Emma Goldman. She helped everyone tremendously, and was not into "faction" disease, and its accompaning abuse.

[Black Dog]

Of course, I never said this.

Your position is that rape is no different from any other crime: the clear implication is gender is irrelevant. And of course, you rather predictably trot out the prison rape example. But let me ask you this: outside of environments occupied exclusively by males, many of whom are pre-disposed to acts of violence, who i smor elikely to be victim of rape? Obviously, prison rape is a serious problem. But the chances of you or I or any average male having to worry about rape is negligible compared to the ever-present fear and probability of rape for women on the outside.

It's alos interesting that you gloss over the fact that male/female gender dynamics are still a factor in prison rape scenarios. In those circumstances the victim is demasculanized (hence the term "bitch"): the rape is as much an attack on his status as a male as it is anything else.

More later...

[Live From China]

Your position is that rape is no different from any other crime: the clear implication is gender is irrelevant.

Actually I never implied anything. But you predictably put your own spin on this. In some circles this is known as lying :angry:

And of course, you rather predictably trot out the prison rape example.

Speaking of being predictable, how the hell did I know you were going to say this? Of course, I am an amateur psychic (sound familiar?).

[frogs]

A Canadian study released on women's harressment in the workplace says that it is the women who are in what men consider their jobs who are being harressed. It has nothing to do with sexism. Plain and simply men cannot stand the heat. The little woman should be either pregnant or in the kichen under men's control where she can be kept out of sight.

Sexual harrassment is a scam. Any harrassment in the workplace or any other place is wrong and should not be tolerated. The forced hiring of women is harrassment. Nagging women is harrassment. Bitching is harrassment. True, not all women are dumb bitches. The good ones will do excellently in the biz world. Women in general have never learned how (or why) to speak, but the ones who have are great! Many a man will quit a job when a bitch gets hired because these men are not interested in a company that would hire such dumb bitches. Think about it. If someone hired a dog to be your collaborater, or boss, would you want to keep working in that company? Dogs generally have more biz sense than women. That's a fact. I don't like it, but it's a fact. When women (or men) learn to raise children respectfully, all these situations will go away. But, till then, nothing will change. Still, the negatives are largely grown from controlled economics. And no, this doesn't mean I hate women (or men). These are facts (economic and social) obvious to anyone who has interest in fact. No self respecting man or woman is going to sue a company for not hiring or promoting them. Many companies are forced to hire retards.

[jbg]

Your position is that rape is no different from any other crime: the clear implication is gender is irrelevant. And of course, you rather predictably trot out the prison rape example. But let me ask you this: outside of environments occupied exclusively by males, many of whom are pre-disposed to acts of violence, who i smor elikely to be victim of rape?

Actually, from what I know, the history of rape as having more severe consequences, penally, than aggravated assault is dishonorable. Blacks in the South were often falsely accused of rape, and then executed after mock trials. The novel "To Kill a Mockngbird" outlines this injustice beautifully.

Granted, the consequences to the victim can be worse, i.e. pregnancy by a depraved person, but the history of the abuse of the rape charge must be made known.

[margrace]

What is the difference between a radical feminist, a radical fundamentalist and an Alliance party member?

[frogs]

What is the difference between a radical feminist, a radical fundamentalist and an Alliance party member?

Different hats

[Drea]

Sexual harrassment is a scam. Any harrassment in the workplace or any other place is wrong and should not be tolerated. The forced hiring of women is harrassment. Nagging women is harrassment. Bitching is harrassment.

Yes, I agree -- nagging about women is harassment.

True, not all women are dumb bitches. The good ones will do excellently in the biz world.

Nice to see you feel that not ALL women...

Women in general have never learned how (or why) to speak, but the ones who have are great!

Women... walkin' 'round gruntin' --

Many a man will quit a job when a bitch gets hired because these men are not interested in a company that would hire such dumb bitches. Think about it. If someone hired a dog to be your collaborater, or boss, would you want to keep working in that company? Dogs generally have more biz sense than women. That's a fact. I don't like it, but it's a fact.

Yup honey it's a FACT. A poodle has more business sense 'n I do! Holy shamoly batman -- whoda thunkit? Geeez us gurls learn sumpin new evry day!

When women (or men) learn to raise children respectfully, all these situations will go away. But, till then, nothing will change. Still, the negatives are largely grown from controlled economics. And no, this doesn't mean I hate women (or men).

Yes it does mean you hate women. Poor thing how will you survive life when 50% of the folks around you are "icky retards"?

These are facts (economic and social) obvious to anyone who has interest in fact. No self respecting man or woman is going to sue a company for not hiring or promoting them. Many companies are forced to hire retards.

The FACT is, young baggypants boy, you know SQUAT.

[Black Dog]

Actually I never implied anything. But you predictably put your own spin on this. In some circles this is known as lying.

Perhaps you need to brush up on what "imply" means. Between your stetement that the only women who have a right to talk about being victimized by rape are rape victims (disregarding how the threat of rape affects the behaviour of women) and your citiation of physical assault on men, it seems to be that you are trying to turn rape into a gender neutral crime, like assault. The subsequent invocation of male-on-male prison rape would seem to confirm that ("see? It happens to men, too, and more often!"). But hey: if I'm reading your mail wrong, why don't you tell me what you actually mean?

Speaking of being predictable, how the hell did I know you were going to say this? Of course, I am an amateur psychic (sound familiar?).

I figured you'd bring it up because a) you had already posted a CHS article on the subject of rape which talked about prison rape and Donaldson and because, from everything I've read about CHS and her acolytes, the word "rape" is seldom uttered without the phenomenon of prison rape being invoked in short order. IOW: there's some deep resistance among "equity feminists" to talking about rape as a crime against women, so much that they have to bring up what happens in all-male environments. So yeah: tres predictable.

[Live From China]

So yeah: tres predictable.

And often the truth is. Because information is predictable doesn't mean it doesn't have validity.

And the information "I" have given is definitely food for thought.

[Black Dog]

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