Afghan mission "doomed to fail"

madmax · January 11, 2007

Not true.
When travellign in Europe THEy remember our contributions in WW2 & WW1. They, especially the Dutch, teach their children in School what we did for them. Too bad we didn't do the same here.

I said, "travelling the world". I have travelled to Europe and am more than Aware of the Dutch Teachings, cause I am DUTCH.

It is true about peacekeeping whether you choose to believe it, that is your problem and you are historically just as naive as the children in our schools whom you would like to see educated. I would argue that it is this larger than life attribute to peacekeeping that has extended our "goodwill" and reputation far beyond the measures of WW2 and added significantly to it, and certainly far more than WW1 with regards to Canadas reputation around the globe. It is because of our "reputation" that we have long claimed the role of peacekeepers, and long since stopped pulling our weight as peacekeepers compared to the rest of the world. But being a pioneer of such a mission, is why the myth is so ingrained into the Canadian Mindset. Far more so, then it deserves.

I am well aware of our military contributions throughout history. I know our military past and I wish that it was taught in our schools. I am a strong believer in increased funding to the military and greater security of person for returning veterans.

Army Guy · January 12, 2007

Catchme:

I think things are getting way out of hand, and your not really thinking your responses thru. and i'll give you some examples.

"Lets us never forget the duty, which we have taken upon us" - Adolph Hitler

I think you have taken this quote and disregarded it's contents because it was made by Hilter, If you were truely ex-military as you said, the contents should mean something. Even histories most infamous people have had thought provoking quotes and ideas.

Army.ca has a great reputation but it is a site taylored for military people or those of the same ilk. and is "NOT" a site for everyone, they have no patients for posers, or peace niks, (no i do not place you in those catagories) just warning you that you may not like the site nor it's posters.

Moreover, I have every right to be turned off by seeing that quote in the upper right corner of the army.ca website the minute I start searching for Canadian soldiers points of view.

I'm glad that you are doing some research, but do not allow just one quote to discourage you. Go to the site again and read the COMBAT ARMS selections and you will get a brutally honest opinon, of whats going on in afgan or within the military, it will also give you some insight as to what drives our soldiers opinions. My piont is that i want to prove to you and others that my opinions are not off base but rather the norm.

As you all you saying I am wrong about Peace Keeping here ya go:

Yes your numbers are impressive, but if you had actually read my reply, at the extreme of our peace keeping duties only 3400 military were employed in Peacekeeping operations, and this number for only for a extremily short period of 1 year, the norm being no more than 1800 to 2400 pers every six months, while our NATO commitments where well over 12,000 pers in the 50,60 and 70's to over 7500 in the 80's up until the early 90's when we pulled most out of europe. So while 125,000 sounds like alot of people i'll let you do the math but remaining committed to our NATO commitments has always been our primary focus.. after that the defense of our nation, keeping enough troops in Canada to look after everything from SAR to Diasters, then came our peacekeeping duties... All of this is historical fact that can be confirmed by simply checking on Our deployments. I just want to add check on all 3 elements Army, airforce and our NAVY as well because they still have deployments as part of our NATO commitments and are some times left out.

I also want to piont out our peacekeeping duties are not an imbrassment to DND , it is something we are very proud of. it is just not a fact that it is our primary focus.

So, why do you not make some comments on the topic and on: how Harper was warned back in June NOT to use US tactics in Afghanistan, or there would be blow back, he did and there was. And now the Harper government are trying to scurry back to "reconstruction" because they know they messed up big time

I'm just curious on what US tactics are being used in afgan? because as a military member you should know that there are only a few tactics that work on Counter- insurgance operations, and these tactics are used world wide...I also like to remind you that we are using the 3 block war concept, here in Afgan we are fighting, providing diplomatic solutions and providing humanitary aid some times in the same city at the same time....

Tactics developed by the US and taken alittle further with a Canadian twist put on them, hence why we have a Battle group, to do the fighting aspect, and we have the PRT which provides the diplomatic and humanitarian side...i'd also like to add that all three of those elements have a hand in each others mission, for instance some of the BG pers may be involved in road construction, providing security to that op but also doing the actual construction. as well as some of the PRT assets may be involved as well in combat operations..

You and others have this misconception that all we are doing is combat operations and that is simply not true. most of our work here involves developing reliable networks with local villages providing aid, and also providing security....These aspects don't make the news as they are not sexy, or whenm they do it's buried behind stories that have the blood and gore in them that sells papers. Hence why i have suggested to get your sources from across the media and read between the lines...

madmax:

On the tank comment No tanks can't go into the mountains, but 90% of the AO is not mountains and although tanks are a very powerful offensive wpn on the battle field and provide us with one more tool that we can use in our fight again'st the taliban the do have some draw backs , they are slow, the are a very intimadating wpn, which is good and bad, attrack alot of enemy attention... but most of us here are glad they are here.

There is only 2,200 troops. How many in the Medical Facilities? Afghans have been receiving foreign doctors and medicare long since the departure of the USSR. I am not certain, who other than Afghan Civilians and Soldiers would be treated by Canadian Medical Facilities?

Actually the number is quite alot compared to other trades that are employed here, the medical facilties at KAF are multi national as they handle all our cas, those facilties treat mostly ISAF pers, that being said ISAF does run alot of mobile hospitals /clinics which deploy to villages themselfs, here the treat anyone that shows up...i also want to add that we are bound to treat and evac everyone off the battlefield including our enemies medicaql attention is not denied but freely administered.

That is where we differ. The Taliban don't have to care, and we do. But it will make no difference

your,Wrong the taliban are just as concerned as we are about winning hearts and minds as we are, they have quit often told entire villages to vacate as the plan to use it as a future battlefield. knowing that it will allow NATO forces to bring MAX fire power to bear.. What they don't care about is if they win, they are not fighting a war which wins a tacticasl victory, they are concerned about is the stratigic victory, for example X- amount of NATO soldiers were killed, pictures of destroied NATO vehs, How much damage NATO causes , how many civilians NATO kills...

They know they can not win on the battlefield, but they know they can beat us at the stratigic level, and a great part of that is right here in your living room, thats right they can influence you and every Canadian citizen, they are also very aware that without your support that eventually our nation will be forced to pull out , hence they win, without any victories on the battlefield.

Take some time and check out some of Al quida's web sites it's in thier doctrine. it will give you some insight to just how long they plan this conflict for, not a couple of years as some have suggested but for years 10 to 20 years, they are prepare to carry this out as long as we let them...and when i say "WE" i mean each and every Canadian not just us here doing the fighting. Now here is the catch you'll need to find one of thier english sites or have them translated...but it will be worth your effort and will give you more insight into whom we are engage with, it will also give you the insight into why Canadian opinion is so important...

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

They know they can not win on the battlefield, but they know they can beat us at the stratigic level, and a great part of that is right here in your living room, thats right they can influence you and every Canadian citizen, they are also very aware that without your support that eventually our nation will be forced to pull out , hence they win, without any victories on the battlefield.

As long as tribalism and religion have influence in Afghanistan and as long as the Taliban are safe in Pakistan, the mission will face dangers. In other words, there may be be no circumstances where Canadian troops could leave where Afghanistan might be able to take care of itself.

Army Guy · January 12, 2007

And just like Martin, Harper went into this thing head first. Which is why there was dialogue in sending Sailors into the landlocked country to drive military vehicles, so other forces could engage the enemy.

I'm not sure on what context you were intending here, but i'd like to clearify it abit. Mr Harpers intentions were not to send hard core sailors and Airmen trades people into combat , but what he was refering to was the support trades that are locked into navy and Airforce postions, like truck drivers, supply techs, admin pers etc..i mean a truck is a truck only differance is ours are green instead of yellow, and we drive with our lights on during the day and lights off at night " it's a army thing"... anyways these pers would still be required to complete the 6 month work-up as the rest of us do, and would not be sent into combat without it...this would take some preasure off the army support structure...that being said it was not intended to have sailors doing the infantries job, not possiable just like i could not do a sailors job on the ships.

Some how the media got confused in the intentions..

Catchme:

Why do you find it so hard to believe that former Candian military personal are against the way Harper is conducting actions in Afghanistan? Or that we would be against the illegal Iraq War either?

There are some and you are entitled to your opinion, and i can only speak for myself, it is not my intention to tell you that your opinion is wrong, but rather to inform you that some of the info of which you may be basing your opinions is wrong.

jdobbin:

As long as tribalism and religion have influence in Afghanistan and as long as the Taliban are safe in Pakistan, the mission will face dangers. In other words, there may be be no circumstances where Canadian troops could leave where Afghanistan might be able to take care of itself.

Yes the pose dangers, but they are not so great as they can not be overcome or made into part of the solution. And yes we might be thier for years to come. what disturbs me is that why is it just this mission that has time constraints why did we not set the same conditions on Cyprus, Bosina, etc etc...The public expects a quick fix to over 27 years of war, it's not going to happen...not with a billion troops or a trillon dollars, so why have we chossen this mission to put time constraints on.

Canadian Blue · January 12, 2007

Again, putting words in mouth, I did not say erase Hitlers words from history, I said having Hitler's words posted at a Canadian Military chat forum to be used as motivation quotes is NOT appropriate. And yes, I believe that ALL Canadians should be made aware that the current climate in the Canadian military supports the use of Hitler's words as motivational quotes.

How do you know they are motivational quotes, as well why do they have Gandhi on there saying all war is a crime?

You seem to have a pretty thick skull.

The quotes are not used to show hypocrisy and/or irony. Try again to be an apologists for the improper use. Also, I will ignore the fascist comment being directed towards me this once.

How do you know that, and where on the website do they use Hitler's quotes for "motivation".

I called you a politically correct fascist because your using one quote, and making rediculous claim's about the men and women of the Canadian military being motivated by nazi quotes.

Not pertinent to discussion.

Actually it is, because I think your lying about your military service. Something which is a disgrace upon itself since you obviously know nothing about the Canadian military.

Think away, you again would be wrong and I could say the same for you not realizing the historical actions of our military. Plus, I do not need to prove anything nor receive your validation.

Strangely enough the vast majority of men and women in the CF probably disagree with you.

Strangley enough I have "often" heard them say otherwise.

I haven't heard a single reg force member blast the mission yet.

No, WE were not attacked on 911 that Canadians were there and died is incidental casualities, just the same as you brush off war casualities.

Hold up, so when four jets were hijacked and rammed into civilian building's, that is the same as collateral damage in Afghanistan when our military was doing everything to minimize civilian casualties.

I don't brush off war casualties, however I know full well we do everything in our power to minimize them. You should have learnt about that in the military.

Catchme · January 12, 2007

Catchme:
I think things are getting way out of hand, and your not really thinking your responses thru. and i'll give you some examples.

No, I am most cetainly thinking my responses through, I am not the one who has had to back track because of being hasty and incorrect. But thanks for your ill founded concern.

I think you have taken this quote and disregarded it's contents because it was made by Hilter, If you were truely ex-military as you said, the contents should mean something. Even histories most infamous people have had thought provoking quotes and ideas.

Being made by Hitler says a great deal, especially when one thinks about the duty to which Hitler is speaking of when he said: "Let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us".

His/their duty was to exterminate the Jews and others less worthy people. In fact, I wonder what the Canadian Jewish Council would have to say about this quote being up at a Canadian Military site? Say nothing of what it implies regarding Afghanistan and Canada's mission there. So, yes, I will be forwarding it to both the Jewish and Muslim councils in Canada, as well as the Canadian government and media.

Army.ca has a great reputation but it is a site taylored for military people or those of the same ilk. and is "NOT" a site for everyone, they have no patients for posers, or peace niks, (no i do not place you in those catagories) just warning you that you may not like the site nor it's posters.

The same ilk eh? What type of ilk is that? This Canadian has no patience for exterminationist thinking and promotion of that ideology within our military ranks! Nor do I think most Canadians would feel any different than I if they knew. And know they will soon enough.

I'm glad that you are doing some research, but do not allow just one quote to discourage you. Go to the site again and read the COMBAT ARMS selections and you will get a brutally honest opinon, of whats going on in afgan or within the military, it will also give you some insight as to what drives our soldiers opinions. My piont is that i want to prove to you and others that my opinions are not off base but rather the norm.

The norm for whom? And just what norm is that? I went there with the honest intent of gaining insight, I was just shocked at the insight I got right off the bat. And if you agree with Hitler's quote you are way off base.

I also want to piont out our peacekeeping duties are not an imbrassment to DND , it is something we are very proud of. it is just not a fact that it is our primary focus.

Nnever said they were and embarrassment, somehow you people have tried to give that impression and yes, until Afghanistan, it was the Canadian militaries primary focus, again do I have republish all the proof?

These aspects don't make the news as they are not sexy, or whenm they do it's buried behind stories that have the blood and gore in them that sells papers. Hence why i have suggested to get your sources from across the media and read between the lines...

I have watched closely for the last 4 years and I do watch/read media from around the world as well as Canada, and do read between the lines. I think perhaps you need to get a bit of Canadian history under your belt.

Also, I am fully aware that the Canadian military, or at least some in it, would like to be the US military or rather be exactly like the US military.

I am furious about what the use of the Hitler quote implies, and how it's ideology and others like it could be impacting upon our military personal.

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

Yes the pose dangers, but they are not so great as they can not be overcome or made into part of the solution. And yes we might be thier for years to come. what disturbs me is that why is it just this mission that has time constraints why did we not set the same conditions on Cyprus, Bosina, etc etc...The public expects a quick fix to over 27 years of war, it's not going to happen...not with a billion troops or a trillon dollars, so why have we chossen this mission to put time constraints on.

The reason Cyprus didn't come up often is because it basically had become a mission of keeping the sides apart. While there was share of violence, the overall status of the mission was peacekeeping. Canada eventually left not because the mission was complete but because it was the mission was being funded almost entirely by Canada in the latter years.

I don't see Bosnia in isolation. The break up of Yugoslavia had many components. Slovenia was able to break away after a quick ten day war with Yugoslavia. Other areas such as Bosnia were going to be more of problem because of ethnic diversity. In the end, the U.N and NATO were unable to prevent the worst of ethnic cleansing and civil war. I think it was foolish to think they would.

Canada has about 650 people in Bosnia. The mission has become one of keeping sides apart.

What makes Afghanistan different is that NATO is doing a mission it has never done before: nation building. And it is doing it in a country that has resisted all past attempts to mold it. The tribalism of Afghanistan butts heads against nationalism. Moreover, religion still plays a part in crushing those people who would try to build the country.

Canada was not at war for 27 years in Cyprus. Canada has never been at war with anyone for more than six years. Afghanistan could very well be the war that lasts as long as the Vietnam War. And that war lasted 10,000 days.

Canadian Blue · January 12, 2007

No, I am most cetainly thinking my responses through, I am not the one who has had to back track because of being hasty and incorrect. But thanks for your ill founded concern.

Not really if you think all of us in the military want to aspire to become the Waffen SS.

Being made by Hitler says a great deal, especially when one thinks about the duty to which Hitler is speaking of when he said: "Let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us".
His/their duty was to exterminate the Jews and others less worthy people. In fact, I wonder what the Canadian Jewish Council would have to say about this quote being up at a Canadian Military site? Say nothing of what it implies regarding Afghanistan and Canada's mission there. So, yes, I will be forwarding it to both the Jewish and Muslim councils in Canada, as well as the Canadian government and media.

What do you make of the Gandhi quote which said that all war is evil, even in the name of good?

Once again stop your campaign of hatred against our soldier's, since all you are doing is slandering those soldier's overseas who are giving their lives while you piss on their comrades graves back home by saying they were inspired by Adolf Hitler.

The same ilk eh? What type of ilk is that? This Canadian has no patience for exterminationist thinking and promotion of that ideology within our military ranks! Nor do I think most Canadians would feel any different than I if they knew. And know they will soon enough.

Why don't you go and tell that to the Canadian families who have lost loved ones overseas first, and tell them that they were inspired by exterminationist thinking.

The norm for whom? And just what norm is that? I went there with the honest intent of gaining insight, I was just shocked at the insight I got right off the bat. And if you agree with Hitler's quote you are way off base.

Why don't you go and make a topic on army.ca about it, and why you think Canadian troop's are being inspired by Hitler.

Nnever said they were and embarrassment, somehow you people have tried to give that impression and yes, until Afghanistan, it was the Canadian militaries primary focus, again do I have republish all the proof?

No it wasn't, Peacekeeping was never our primary focus. Honestly get that through your thick skull, we have always had a larger commitment to NATO than the UN. As well look at the operation's in the past 20 years and we have been involved in Combat.

If the proof comes from some left leaning peace site then don't bother.

I am furious about what the use of the Hitler quote implies, and how it's ideology and others like it could be impacting upon our military personal.

I have never been inspired by a Hitler quote, if I read a book about Hitler does that make me a Nazi.

Honestly, are you really that thick in the skull that you think Canadian soldiers are being inspired by nazism, are you fucking nuts?

I have never been taught any nazi ideology, however I have been told to be proud of what our military did during World War 2.

No, I am most cetainly thinking my responses through, I am not the one who has had to back track because of being hasty and incorrect. But thanks for your ill founded concern.

Well you obviously lied about your military experience. As well our military is very politically correct it's not like Full Metal Jacket.

Also, I am fully aware that the Canadian military, or at least some in it, would like to be the US military or rather be exactly like the US military.

What are you basing this on, and how would we be like the US Military?

Either way while your up in arm's over this, you might as well bring up the issue of spiders being on drugs since that seemed to piss you off as well.

White Doors · January 12, 2007

They know they can not win on the battlefield, but they know they can beat us at the stratigic level, and a great part of that is right here in your living room, thats right they can influence you and every Canadian citizen, they are also very aware that without your support that eventually our nation will be forced to pull out , hence they win, without any victories on the battlefield.

As long as tribalism and religion have influence in Afghanistan and as long as the Taliban are safe in Pakistan, the mission will face dangers. In other words, there may be be no circumstances where Canadian troops could leave where Afghanistan might be able to take care of itself.

There is 'tribalism' in Canada for god's sake. What you are asking is to remove the 'human condition' from humans. Don't be so trite and expect to be taken seriously.

White Doors · January 12, 2007

Catchme

You make me physically ill that you are a Canadian. You are a slug.

Congratulations.

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

There is 'tribalism' in Canada for god's sake. What you are asking is to remove the 'human condition' from humans. Don't be so trite and expect to be taken seriously.

Your tribalism doesn't motivate you to kill me and my family. At least I hope not.

White Doors · January 12, 2007

There is 'tribalism' in Canada for god's sake. What you are asking is to remove the 'human condition' from humans. Don't be so trite and expect to be taken seriously.

Your tribalism doesn't motivate you to kill me and my family. At least I hope not.

My motivations are irrevelant. Speak to what was spoken and stop your spinning.

Be a person not a partisan hack.

It's not that hard - try.

madmax · January 12, 2007

madmax:
On the tank comment No tanks can't go into the mountains, but 90% of the AO is not mountains and although tanks are a very powerful offensive wpn on the battle field and provide us with one more tool that we can use in our fight again'st the taliban the do have some draw backs , they are slow, the are a very intimadating wpn, which is good and bad, attrack alot of enemy attention... but most of us here are glad they are here.

Fair enough, however, my comments weren't directed towards you, they were for Jean Poutine. I know they are slow, etc, and I understand their benefits towards the troops and you have confirmed what I have said in prior threads. I am aware of Afghanistans geography, I was simply saying they can't go into the mountains, much like a Soviet Tank couldn't go into the mountains which was a fact.

That is where we differ. The Taliban don't have to care, and we do. But it will make no difference

your,Wrong the taliban are just as concerned as we are about winning hearts and minds as we are, they have quit often told entire villages to vacate as the plan to use it as a future battlefield. knowing that it will allow NATO forces to bring MAX fire power to bear.. What they don't care about is if they win, they are not fighting a war which wins a tacticasl victory, they are concerned about is the stratigic victory, for example X- amount of NATO soldiers were killed, pictures of destroied NATO vehs, How much damage NATO causes , how many civilians NATO kills...
They know they can not win on the battlefield, but they know they can beat us at the stratigic level, and a great part of that is right here in your living room, thats right they can influence you and every Canadian citizen, they are also very aware that without your support that eventually our nation will be forced to pull out , hence they win, without any victories on the battlefield.

I hear you. I understand the mindset and the tactics, it is Jean Poutine whom claims the Taliban don't care. What you have read in my reply to Jean Poutine is out of context, but not misquoted. That is good battlefield analysis, and also very similar to what I have said in other threads.

Take some time and check out some of Al quida's web sites it's in thier doctrine. it will give you some insight to just how long they plan this conflict for, not a couple of years as some have suggested but for years 10 to 20 years, they are prepare to carry this out as long as we let them...and when i say "WE" i mean each and every Canadian not just us here doing the fighting. Now here is the catch you'll need to find one of thier english sites or have them translated...but it will be worth your effort and will give you more insight into whom we are engage with, it will also give you the insight into why Canadian opinion is so important...

I am well read with regards to Al Qaida. I am well read in Afghanistan's history. But you are giving good enough advice in this regards. I used to spend alot of time on this, but I do have a real life, no time for translating cassette tapes and other forms of media.

What I am interested in , is , is there a successfull model of the 3 block strategy?

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

My motivations are irrevelant. Speak to what was spoken and stop your spinning.
Be a person not a partisan hack.

It's not that hard - try.

Give me a break with your own partisanship. Stop being so angry.

Tribalism in Afghanistan has made it difficult for the country to operate in terms of security. Even under the Taliban it was difficult to keep in check.

NATO has never built a nation from the ground up before like this. Never before has it faced such a problems of poverty in a territory nor had to counter an economy that was almost entirely illegal in nature.

The time in Cyprus might seem short when all is said and done about Afghanistan. The rising violence is either a tipping point or the last gasp. It is difficult to say. However, as long as Pakistan can help supply the Taliban, it isn't going to be a short commitment.

Catchme · January 12, 2007

canadian blue said: Not really if you think all of us in the military want to aspire to become the Waffen SS

Never said that stop putitng words in my mouth yet again.

What do you make of the Gandhi quote which said that all war is evil, even in the name of good?

You are red herring with Gandhi's quote, why do not address what good reason army.ca would have Hitler's quote up as a motivational quote?

Gandhi's quote has nothing to do with Hitler's quote others than it resides at the same site and perhaps is being used to make Hitler's appear innoctuous? Hitler's ideology is not compatible with Gandhi's.

Once again stop your campaign of hatred against our soldier's, since all you are doing is slandering those soldier's overseas who are giving their lives while you piss on their comrades graves back home by saying they were inspired by Adolf Hitler.

I am not doing either of those things of which you are accusing me, and I said nothing about inspired. Also, for future reference I do not bend under emotional ploys and false accusations, I have had training that exempts me from that type of thing. The fact remains that IMV army.ca has NO business promoting Hitler's "duty" philosophy that reside within his quote. In fact, I have made some calls and it seems that others are as concerned as I about this.

Why don't you go and tell that to the Canadian families who have lost loved ones overseas first, and tell them that they were inspired by exterminationist thinking.

Again, it is not my problem that army.ca unwisely put an Adolph Hitler quote up for motivation. They should have been the ones thinking about responsible actions and what implications their actions would have upon others in the military and in turn their families.

Why don't you go and make a topic on army.ca about it, and why you think Canadian troop's are being inspired by Hitler.

I would not go back to that site for anything, and again you are putting words in my mouth I have never used the word inspired.n Again why would army.ca put a quote of Hitler's up?

No it wasn't, Peacekeeping was never our primary focus. Honestly get that through your thick skull, we have always had a larger commitment to NATO than the UN. As well look at the operation's in the past 20 years and we have been involved in Combat.

Oh yes, Yugoslavia, almost every overseas deployment for the last 30 years or more was observing or peacekeeping you know it, I know it, and so do Canadians.

I have never been inspired by a Hitler quote, if I read a book about Hitler does that make me a Nazi. Honestly, are you really that thick in the skull that you think Canadian soldiers are being inspired by nazism, are you fucking nuts?I have never been taught any nazi ideology, however I have been told to be proud of what our military did during World War 2.

Never said a word about inspired, I am speaking of using a Hitler quote for motivation at the army.ca site, again you're red herring. Nor did I say anything about you as an individual, unlike you of me.

I honestly want to know why army.ca would have a Hitler quote as part of their motivational quote scroll?

That you all have denied, bullied, and called names without answering says much.

If you think that there is nothing wrong with the Hitler quote being at army.ca, then I wonder about a lot things.

Well you obviously lied about your military experience. As well our military is very politically correct it's not like Full Metal Jacket.

Back to that cannard again heh, as I said I care not what you believe, I know I was, the Canadian Government knows I was, and the Royal Canadian Legion knows I was, and I have my lovely cap badges in with my jewellery box to this day still.

BTW, I was taking about personal errors here on this thread that some have made in their accusations against me, for which they were proven wrong and had to come back and admit they were wrong and was not talking politcally correctness.

As for PCness, its gotten better, but has a long way to go, as does society.

Either way while your up in arm's over this, you might as well bring up the issue of spiders being on drugs since that seemed to piss you off as well.

This does not belong in this thread. It is off topic and non-pertinent waste of space and time.

madmax · January 12, 2007

I'm not sure on what context you were intending here, but i'd like to clearify it abit. Mr Harpers intentions were not to send hard core sailors and Airmen trades people into combat , but what he was refering to was the support trades that are locked into navy and Airforce postions, like truck drivers, supply techs, admin pers etc..i mean a truck is a truck only differance is ours are green instead of yellow, and we drive with our lights on during the day and lights off at night " it's a army thing"... anyways these pers would still be required to complete the 6 month work-up as the rest of us do, and would not be sent into combat without it...this would take some preasure off the army support structure...that being said it was not intended to have sailors doing the infantries job, not possiable just like i could not do a sailors job on the ships.
Some how the media got confused in the intentions..

The context was this. We are there and clearly would require more personel if we were to extend the stay. The media didn't get confused, I watched the O CONNOR and Hillier on TV not Harper, they explained it. This was the option used, Rerolling, which isn't that unusual for military overstretched. So take an overstretched military and stretch it further.

Of course as a "truck driver" in assymetrical Warfare it is the truckers that are going to be tagged. I have driven a duece and half in the dark.

White Doors · January 12, 2007

I'm not sure on what context you were intending here, but i'd like to clearify it abit. Mr Harpers intentions were not to send hard core sailors and Airmen trades people into combat , but what he was refering to was the support trades that are locked into navy and Airforce postions, like truck drivers, supply techs, admin pers etc..i mean a truck is a truck only differance is ours are green instead of yellow, and we drive with our lights on during the day and lights off at night " it's a army thing"... anyways these pers would still be required to complete the 6 month work-up as the rest of us do, and would not be sent into combat without it...this would take some preasure off the army support structure...that being said it was not intended to have sailors doing the infantries job, not possiable just like i could not do a sailors job on the ships.

Some how the media got confused in the intentions..

The context was this. We are there and clearly would require more personel if we were to extend the stay. The media didn't get confused, I watched the O CONNOR and Hillier on TV not Harper, they explained it. This was the option used, Rerolling, which isn't that unusual for military overstretched. So take an overstretched military and stretch it further.

Of course as a "truck driver" in assymetrical Warfare it is the truckers that are going to be tagged. I have driven a duece and half in the dark.

You didn't ask me, but I will offer my answer anyways. Was Canada prepared for WW1? How about WW2? Are we going to cower under our mother's legs when generations of Canadians before us came out into the light and met the challenge? That is the question we all must ask ourselves. Name me a perfect war and I will name you a time when Canadians tucked our tails and hid and wished it all away.

If Canadians can't come to belive in the righteousness of this conflict then we really do not deserve a position of leadership in the world - as shaky as that qualification has become in the past few deceades.

The western world way of life is the fragile society. It is NOT the one we are in battle with now.

We all have to think about this and decide.

madmax · January 12, 2007

You didn't ask me, but I will offer my answer anyways. Was Canada prepared for WW1? How about WW2? Are we going to cower under our mother's legs when generations of Canadians before us came out into the light and met the challenge? That is the question we all must ask ourselves. Name me a perfect war and I will name you a time when Canadians tucked our tails and hid and wished it all away.
If Canadians can't come to belive in the righteousness of this conflict then we really do not deserve a position of leadership in the world - as shaky as that qualification has become in the past few deceades.

The western world way of life is the fragile society. It is NOT the one we are in battle with now.

We all have to think about this and decide.

Ok, I am sorry if I missed it, are you currently in the Military? As you are aware, many fine young men signed up to fight in both WW1 and WW2. If you are not currently in the Military, then you can do battle with these guys now, and sign up as they did in the past. You can think about this and decide.

As for the past month or so, when the recruiters were enticing my sons, I left the decision up to them, but certainly don't believe that this war is worth the loss of my sons.

Do I think it is winnable? Yes, I think there is still time

under the current doctrine?

I am still not convinced

So do this White Doors, RAH RAH RAH< FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT! Kill all the bad guys and don't negotiate and maybe we will win this right?

Which is the doctrine of some of the posters here, not a formal military doctrine.

Canadian Blue · January 12, 2007

You are red herring with Gandhi's quote, why do not address what good reason arm.ca would have Hitler's quote up as a motivational quote?
Gandhi's quote has nothing to do with Hitler's quote others than it resides at the same site. Hitler's ideology is not compatible with Gandhi's.

They have quotes from right across the spectrum.

First thing numpty, the quote is not meant to be "motivational", secondly, why don't you address it with the site admin to hear from their side first before "making call's" which I seriously doubt since you have lied about military service.

Never said that stop putitng words in my mouth yet again.

No, your simply saying that our troop's are getting motivation from Adolf Hitler, even though their are anti-war quotes on the same site.

So maybe the quote section isn't about "motivation", imagine that...

Gandhi's quote has nothing to do with Hitler's quote others than it resides at the same site. Hitler's ideology is not compatible with Gandhi's.

Well no doubt numpty, look through the entire quote section.

Go to the site, get an account, and ask about the quote before you start making wild accusation's which are probably not accurate.

Back to that cannard again heh, as I said I care not what you believe, I know I was, the Canadian Government knows I was, and the Royal Canadian Legion knows I was, and I have my lovely cap badges in with my jewellery box to this day still.

I once again highly doubt that, and you still refuse to say what bases you were posted to, as well as what trade you were.

White Doors · January 12, 2007

Ok, I am sorry if I missed it, are you currently in the Military? As you are aware, many fine young men signed up to fight in both WW1 and WW2. If you are not currently in the Military, then you can do battle with these guys now, and sign up as they did in the past. You can think about this and decide.

As for the past month or so, when the recruiters were enticing my sons, I left the decision up to them, but certainly don't believe that this war is worth the loss of my sons.

Do I think it is winnable? Yes, I think there is still time

under the current doctrine?

I am still not convinced

So do this White Doors, RAH RAH RAH< FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT! Kill all the bad guys and don't negotiate and maybe we will win this right?

Which is the doctrine of some of the posters here, not a formal military doctrine.

Sorry if my opinion on the citizens of Canada being supportive of a UN, Nato and GOC mission in Afghanistan upsets you.

Perhaps you could name me a current potential conflict that Canada could be a part of that would be more worthy?

Thanks!!!!

Canadian Blue · January 12, 2007

Here are some of the most popular quotes in the quote section:

We're not the public service of Canada, we're not just another department. We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.
- Jul 2005

- Gen Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff

Viewed 2979 times.

<< Show Quote #1365 Show Quote #1367 >>

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey; This is called hobbling the army. By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army; This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.

- Sun Tzu

Viewed 2784 times.

<< Show Quote #320 Show Quote #322 >>

I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture and ... kill them. I wanted to be the first kid on my block to get a confirmed kill.

- Joker, Full Metal Jacket

Viewed 2626 times.

<< Show Quote #1188 Show Quote #1190 >>

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

- Sun Tzu

Viewed 2531 times.

<< Show Quote #321 Show Quote #323 >>

I had as comrades in my [World War I army] section men whose names were: Cameron, Kimora, English, Gleidenstein, de Chapin, O'Shaughnessy. We didn't fall in or fall out as Irish Canadians, French Canadians, Dutch Canadians, Japanese Canadians. We wore the same uniform, with the same maple leaf badge, and we were proud to be known as Canadians, to serve as Canadians and to die, if it had to be, as Canadians.

- Lester B. Pearson

Viewed 2510 times.

<< Show Quote #1185 Show Quote #1187 >>

Freedom Is Not Free

I watched the flag pass by one day.

It fluttered in the breeze.

A young Airman saluted it,

And then he stood at ease.

I looked at him in uniform,

So young, so tall, so proud;

With hair cut square and eyes alert,

He stood out in any crowd.

I thought how many men like him,

Had fallen through the years.

How many died on foreign soil?

How many mothers' tears?

How many pilots planes shot down?

How many died at sea?

How many fox holes were soldiers graves?

No freedom is not free.

I heard Taps sound one night,

When everything was still.

I listened to the bugle play,

And felt a sudden chill.

I wondered just how many times,

Taps had meant "Amen,"

When a flag had covered a coffin,

Of a brother or a friend.

I thought of all the children

Of the mothers and the wives.

Of the fathers, sons, and husbands,

With interrupted lives.

I thought about a graveyard,

At the bottom of the sea,

Of unmarked graves at Arlington.

No, Freedom Is Not Free!

- LCDR Kelly Strong, USCG

Viewed 2423 times.

<< Show Quote #1159 Show Quote #1161 >>

Whether you think you can or you think you can't-you're right.

- Henry Ford

Viewed 2391 times.

<< Show Quote #1160 Show Quote #1162 >>

The metropolis is obsolete. Ask the Army.

- Herbert Marshall McLuhan

Viewed 2375 times.

<< Show Quote #1184 Show Quote #1186 >>

"The rules of strategy are few and simple. They may be learned in a week. They may be taught by familiar illustrations or a dozen diagrams. But such knowledge will no more teach a man to lead an army like Napoleon than a knowledge of grammar will teach him to write like Gibbon."

- Col. Henderson

Viewed 2364 times.

<< Show Quote #743 Show Quote #745 >>

Order of the day issued to columns as they crossed the Chindwin, February 13th, 1943.

Today we stand on the threshold of battle. The time of preparation is over, and we are moving on the enemy to prove ourselves and our methods. At this moment we stand beside the soldiers of the United Nations in the front line trenches throughout the world. It is always a minority that occupies the front line. It is still a smaller minority that accepts with a good heart tasks like this that we have chosen to carry out. We need not, therefore, as we go forward into the conflict, suspect ourselves of selfish or interested motives. We have all had opportunity of withdrawing and we are here because we have chosen to be here; that is, we have chosen to bear the burden and heat of the day. Men who make this choice are above the average in courage. We need therefore have no fear for the staunchness and guts of our comrades.

The motive which had led each and all of us to devote ourselves to what lies ahead cannot conceivably have been a bad motive. Comfort and security are not sacrificed voluntarily for the sake of others by ill-disposed people. Our motive, therefore, may be taken to be the desire to serve our day and generation in the way that seems nearest to our hand. The battle is not always to the strong nor the race to the swift. Victory in war cannot be counted upon, but what can be counted upon is that we shall go forward determined to do what we can to bring this war to the end which we believe best for our friends and comrades in arms, without boastfulness or forgetting our duty, resolved to do the right so far as we can see the right.

Our aim is to make possible a government of the world in which all men can live at peace and with equal opportunity of service.

Finally, knowing the vanity of man's effort and the confusion of his purpose, let us pray that God may accept our services and direct our endeavours, so that when we shall have done all we shall see the fruit of our labours and be satisfied.

- O.C. Wingate, Commander, 77th Indian Infantry Brigade.

As well Catchme don't you think it's odd that the military would use motivational anti-war quotes?

Why don't you join army.ca, and find out what real soldier's think, and ask question's with regards to Afghanistan.

I would trust an Infanteer sergeant with a tour under his belt more than an article from an activist peace site.

Here are some other quotes on the same site with an anti-war theme.

"Today the real test of power is not the capacity to make war but the capacity to prevent it"
- Anne O'Hare McCormick

"It doesn't require any particular bravery to stand on the floor of the Senate and urge our boys in Vietnam to fight harder, and if this war mushrooms into a major conflict and a hundred thousand young Americans are killed, it won't be US Senators who die. It will be American soldiers who are too young to qualify for the senate"
- George McGovern

Now catchme why would they use these quotes as motivation?

August1991 · January 12, 2007

jdobbin:
As long as tribalism and religion have influence in Afghanistan and as long as the Taliban are safe in Pakistan, the mission will face dangers. In other words, there may be be no circumstances where Canadian troops could leave where Afghanistan might be able to take care of itself.

Yes the pose dangers, but they are not so great as they can not be overcome or made into part of the solution. And yes we might be thier for years to come. what disturbs me is that why is it just this mission that has time constraints why did we not set the same conditions on Cyprus, Bosina, etc etc...The public expects a quick fix to over 27 years of war, it's not going to happen...not with a billion troops or a trillon dollars, so why have we chossen this mission to put time constraints on.

I have to agree with Army Guy here.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and set up the Karmal and then Najibullah regimes, it expressly wanted to make of Afghanistan another Soviet Republic "-stan", like Kazakhstan, Tadjikistan, Turkmenistan and so on. NATO's intentions are much less ambitious.

All we want is a viable regime in Afghanistan that will not harbour terrorists. That largely means excluding radical elements of the Taliban (is there any other?) from power. Afghanistan will still be Afghanistan, call it tribalism if you will. It just won't be an Afghanistan that represents any kind of threat to the West.

This is well on the way to fruition because it just isn't that difficult to accomplish - we're committed to being there until 2009 and NATO will probably have to stay longer. (Modernising Afghanistan will have to wait a century or two but that's not our objective.)

Catchme · January 12, 2007

You are red herring with Gandhi's quote, why do not address what good reason arm.ca would have Hitler's quote up as a motivational quote?
Gandhi's quote has nothing to do with Hitler's quote others than it resides at the same site. Hitler's ideology is not compatible with Gandhi's.

They have quotes from right across the spectrum.

First thing numpty, the quote is not meant to be "motivational", secondly, why don't you address it with the site admin to hear from their side first before "making call's" which I seriously doubt since you have lied about military service.

Never said that stop putitng words in my mouth yet again.

No, your simply saying that our troop's are getting motivation from Adolf Hitler, even though their are anti-war quotes on the same site.

So maybe the quote section isn't about "motivation", imagine that...

Gandhi's quote has nothing to do with Hitler's quote others than it resides at the same site. Hitler's ideology is not compatible with Gandhi's.

Well no doubt numpty, look through the entire quote section.

Go to the site, get an account, and ask about the quote before you start making wild accusation's which are probably not accurate.

Back to that cannard again heh, as I said I care not what you believe, I know I was, the Canadian Government knows I was, and the Royal Canadian Legion knows I was, and I have my lovely cap badges in with my jewellery box to this day still.

I once again highly doubt that, and you still refuse to say what bases you were posted to, as well as what trade you were.

And here you are calling names, when in your last post you're trying to tell me the Canadian military is so PC and upstanding, and all that! :rolleyes:

Never would I get an account there, and there can be NO jsutification for using a Hitler quote at a military support site. Private or not!

As I said the Gandhi quote minimalizes the nature of Hitler's quote and nothing more IMV.

And how about we let the general public decide what they think and the peoples who were and maybe impacted by those words of Hitler's being in a Canadian Army support site, eh?

And I am making NO accusations, nor have I made any, again I will say: I want to know the justification for the use of such a thing, and if this type of promotion of Hitler's word is common in the Canadian military?

Because to me, using Hitler's words, at the very least, make a mockery of those Canadians who died and fought in WWII.

How you can fail to see that I do not understand?!

White Doors · January 12, 2007

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
A love for tradition has never weakened a nation, indeed it has strengthened nations in their hour of peril.
All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Every day you may make progress. Every step may be fruitful. Yet there will stretch out before you an ever-lengthening, ever-ascending, ever-improving path. You know you will never get to the end of the journey. But this, so far from discouraging, only adds to the joy and glory of the climb.

and some for you catchme:

I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he excites among his opponents.
The reserve of modern assertions is sometimes pushed to extremes, in which the fear of being contradicted leads the writer to strip himself of almost all sense and meaning.

a few for Afghanistan:

It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time.
It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required.
Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
The price of greatness is responsibility.
To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day.

One that those of us that have been engaging in conversation with catchme are guilty of

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber.

jdobbin · January 12, 2007

I have to agree with Army Guy here.
When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and set up the Karmal and then Najibullah regimes, it expressly wanted to make of Afghanistan another Soviet Republic "-stan", like Kazakhstan, Tadjikistan, Turkmenistan and so on. NATO's intentions are much less ambitious.

All we want is a viable regime in Afghanistan that will not harbour terrorists. That largely means excluding radical elements of the Taliban (is there any other?) from power. Afghanistan will still be Afghanistan, call it tribalism if you will. It just won't be an Afghanistan that represents any kind of threat to the West.

This is well on the way to fruition because it just isn't that difficult to accomplish - we're committed to being there until 2009 and NATO will probably have to stay longer. (Modernising Afghanistan will have to wait a century or two but that's not our objective.)

I hope you're right, I really do. Many of the people with more insight on the future there than I say that trying to tame Afghanistan for any regime could very well be beyond NATO. I also fear that in the next months, NATO will call on Canada to renew beyond 2009.

I'm not sure that Afghanistan will be secure any time soon.

And Pakistan. What to do about Pakistan? Pakistan's solution is to mine the borders. Canada doesn't want that. I don't know what is right for the area. That would be a hell of a lot mines and I doubt they would foil people who climb the most inhospitable passes.