Canadian troops

jdobbin · January 6, 2007

Are the canucks really that much more acclimatised to the cold?

For warfare? Apparently yes.

Afghan fighters have rarely fought this long into the winter as they have this year. NATO is hoping the gains they make over the winter are sustainable into the summer. Most of the action though is limited to hit and run and suicide and roadside bombings.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/update_detail.asp?id=15689

Foreign Affairs Journal had a bleak assessment of the overall situation:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...16d498f&k=48964

- "High unemployment is fuelling conflict Eeffective economic aid is vital to addressing the pervasive poverty that debilitates the government and facilitates the recruitment of unemployed youths into militias or the insurgency."
- "The lack of electricity continues to be a major problem. No new power projects have been completed, and Kabulis today have less electricity than they did five years ago."

- "Rising crime, especially the kidnapping of businessmen for ransom, is also leading to capital flightEpeople throughout the country report that crime is increasing and complain that the police are the main criminals."

- The Ministry of the Interior and the judiciary "are deeply corrupt and plagued by a lack of skills, equipment and resources."

- "Opium poppy production in the country reached a record 6,100 metric tons last year, surpassing the 2005 total by 49 per cent EThe massive illicit economy is booming, while the licit economy slows."

As I have said repeatedly, Afghanistan has the potential to take down a Canadian government. I think the Conservatives could lose an election based on a bad situation growing worse in Afghanistan.

White Doors · January 6, 2007

They could lose an election over it, yes. Harper has said that he is prepared to lose an election over it. It is a JUST mission even endorsed by the UN and it is necessary to do so in order to drag, kicking and screaming if need be, these people into the 21st century. 'Barbarians at the gate' is no longer tolerable to civilized society because of the relative easy access to modern weapons that can inflict great damage to others. That is why we are there and that is why we will stay.

It's really as simple as that.

Nice to have princilpled leadership for a change. Not governing by opinion polls for every decision.

War is a bad thing but sometimes the alternative is even worse. That is how any logical thinking person should judge this conflict. Get behind our soldiers and support them. Let's continue Canada's great military traditions of victory and valour.

jdobbin · January 6, 2007

Get behind our soldiers and support them. Let's continue Canada's great military traditions of victory and valour.

How many years do you think you will continue to feel that way if we are having this same conversation about Afghanistan in 2010?

A Canadian soldier was wounded today in an area liberated last year.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Army Guy · January 6, 2007

I just brifly scimmed all the posts here, and find a recuring theme from the same posters, "Afgan is a hopless adventure",a waste of tax dollars, a waste of lives" (Not so says it's soldiers), what is a waste of our tax dollars, and lives is the Canadian public flip floping and not fully supporting it's orginal decission to direct action in Afgan.

Yes the mission is full of problems , but instead of pulling out ,quitting and sticking our heads back in the sand, we should be demanding from our government that solutions be found and action taken to fix them. Our government needs to take the lead and attempt to show the leadership that is required to make all this possiable, to show the rest of the world that maybe a peaceful Afganistan is possiable.

But i'd like to piont out some facts that sometimes get missed or forgotten.

We did not start this conflict, it was brought to us by a fantical islamic terrorist group, one that had and still has the backing of many fantical islamic states, and organizations. They brought this conflict to our doorstep with 9/11, one that killed over 30 Canadians, whom were not soldiers, not politicians, not government employees, but everyday Canadian citizens trying to make a buck. Did this event alone require us as a nation to take a stand to take some form of action ?

This event was a direct attack on the US of A, and as a member of NATO was also an attack on all of the NATO countries. Canada included, which again requires us as a nation to take and support direction action again'st those responsable. A mission that is still ongoing, and is not completed as the Taliban and Al quada are still a viable threat not only to the Government of Afgan but to the rest of us in the west. As part of the mission of destroying those responsable for 9/11 the mission has included rebuilding Afgan government and rebuilding the nation, a mission that is still ongoing.

This attack is not just an attack on the US but all the western countries whom share many of the the same values and ways of life as the US. And was not just made by one fantical terrorist group, but by all those that support this way of thinking "that killing infidals" is a sport, a way of life, part of thier fantical religious beliefs. Canada will not have a free pass if it leaves, we and our way of living will always be on thier shit list.

What message would we be sending to these scumbags if we as a nation did not stand up for our citizens, for our NATO commitiments, for our way of living? What message do we send the rest of the world?

And what are going to be the consquences of us packing up and going home.

jdobbin · January 6, 2007

What message would we be sending to these scumbags if we as a nation did not stand up for our citizens, for our NATO commitiments, for our way of living? What message do we send the rest of the world?
And what are going to be the consquences of us packing up and going home.

It would be nice if NATO actually backed up nations doing the fighting. Even Canada's top officers says they are limited in what force they can bring to a fight, who they can bring to the fight, what time of day they can fight.

The origins of the war are known but things are evolving. There is a mini-Taliban state in Pakistan. Are Canadian troops going to fight there next? If not, how will they continue to prevent the Taliban from striking at Afghanistan years from now?

In the spring, Canada is likely to be asked to extend again. If there is no progress on these critical questions of stability and who does the fighting and provides security as well as takes on the elephant in the room: Pakistan, Canadians are going to be reluctant to make a renewed vow to participate.

Catchme · January 7, 2007

It's NOT a WAR, we have never declared WAR, it was supposed to be reconstruction of a nation, with NO offensive.

Please stop calling it a war, calling it a war validates it when it should have NO validation.

Highlander · January 7, 2007

It's NOT a WAR, we have never declared WAR, it was supposed to be reconstruction of a nation, with NO offensive.
Please stop calling it a war, calling it a war validates it when it should have NO validation.

The only reason it is not called a war when it fact it is, is that some people's sensibilities will be hurt. The sooner we stop fighting a politically correct war in the Middle East, the sooner we will win and the sooner our soldiers can come home. Alive.

White Doors · January 7, 2007

Get behind our soldiers and support them. Let's continue Canada's great military traditions of victory and valour.

How many years do you think you will continue to feel that way if we are having this same conversation about Afghanistan in 2010?

A Canadian soldier was wounded today in an area liberated last year.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

As long as progress continues to be met as it is now. That's how long. How long did it take you to throw up the white flag? Let me guess... When the CPC's won power Jan 23/06?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

White Doors · January 7, 2007

It's NOT a WAR, we have never declared WAR, it was supposed to be reconstruction of a nation, with NO offensive.
Please stop calling it a war, calling it a war validates it when it should have NO validation.

What??? It is a war. Only a fool would feel otherwise.

jdobbin · January 7, 2007

As long as progress continues to be met as it is now. That's how long. How long did it take you to throw up the white flag? Let me guess... When the CPC's won power Jan 23/06?
You should be ashamed of yourself.

And you should check what I have been saying for some time now. Long before the Conservatives won power, I have been saying that war might not have a decisive victory because of Pakistan. You disagree with that?

Army Guy · January 7, 2007

jdobbin:

It would be nice if NATO actually backed up nations doing the fighting. Even Canada's top officers says they are limited in what force they can bring to a fight, who they can bring to the fight, what time of day they can fight.

I think NATO as a organization is backing the nations that are doing the fighting, as this mission sucess depends on it's survival. I think it is more like the nations within NATO that are having the problem of supporting the mission. As there is nothing in it for them. for some terrorist have already scare them into inaction.

As for Canada being limited by NATO not entirely true. we are limited by our own capabilties, and our ability to generate replacements for the next ROTO. And for that we have nobody to blame but ourselfs.

The origins of the war are known but things are evolving. There is a mini-Taliban state in Pakistan. Are Canadian troops going to fight there next? If not, how will they continue to prevent the Taliban from striking at Afghanistan years from now?

You mean they are evolving to the piont we have lost our resolve, we are allowing a fantical islamic organization to win the war, in fact what we are really saying here is if you can drag this out long enough you'll get your way, that we will concede so that terrorists will be free to terrorize us at will.

As for Pakistan, the free world needs to bring more preasure on them, forcing them into action and forcing them to bring more force on the Taliban. As for any NATO troops fighting in pakistan, but we know this is not going to happen, not without hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground and pakistan knows this and takes advantage of it.

Without more troops on the ground to atleast make it difficult for the taliban to cross the borders then yes we are forced to drag this out a little longer.

In the spring, Canada is likely to be asked to extend again. If there is no progress on these critical questions of stability and who does the fighting and provides security as well as takes on the elephant in the room: Pakistan, Canadians are going to be reluctant to make a renewed vow to participate

And if we do pull out, and for argument sake the taliban does take control of the country again. then Canadians will have to ask themselfs what price we as a nation are willing to pay for thier victory. I mean we have already shown them that with all our tech we can be beaten, and unlike them we have no taste for prolonged combat. And if they decide to persue there terrorist ways and punish us in some way in the future, perhaps another 9/11 incident. It would cost us more to bring in more sercurity measures to prevent such attacks than the actual war ever will. Are we ready for that bill...

And do we really think that after we leave that the rest of the nations won't follow suit, leaving the British and US hanging out in the wind. What would that do for the NATO treaty, will it survive, and if it does not how will that effect our own defense, will the US still offer to protect us under thier umbrella, or will we now have to defend ourselfs, with 56,000 troops. I know we are not ready for that bill...

So there is more at stake than what we think, or perhaps i'm full of shit, and nothing will happen except all our efforts here in afgan will be for nothing and alot of good men and women will have died for nothing more than an ill thought out dream of bringing peace to a nation or for that matter any future nation. as the world will already know that we are quitters.

Catchme:

It's NOT a WAR, we have never declared WAR, it was supposed to be reconstruction of a nation, with NO offensive

Perhaps the Taliban and the rest of the scumbags missed that news flash. i know i did...everytime we leave the wire i have 30 to 40 lbs of ammo on my person, not candy, not teddy bears, but ammo, because the taliban don't greet us with flowers and choclates but with Ak's and RPG's. And the orders we recieve are from our government and are very clear we are to relocate the taliban from Afgan thru the use of force.

Please stop calling it a war, calling it a war validates it when it should have NO validation

We are at war, and it's time you did some research...

jdobbin · January 7, 2007

I think NATO as a organization is backing the nations that are doing the fighting, as this mission sucess depends on it's survival. I think it is more like the nations within NATO that are having the problem of supporting the mission. As there is nothing in it for them. for some terrorist have already scare them into inaction.
As for Canada being limited by NATO not entirely true. we are limited by our own capabilties, and our ability to generate replacements for the next ROTO. And for that we have nobody to blame but ourselfs.

You mean they are evolving to the piont we have lost our resolve, we are allowing a fantical islamic organization to win the war, in fact what we are really saying here is if you can drag this out long enough you'll get your way, that we will concede so that terrorists will be free to terrorize us at will.

As for Pakistan, the free world needs to bring more preasure on them, forcing them into action and forcing them to bring more force on the Taliban. As for any NATO troops fighting in pakistan, but we know this is not going to happen, not without hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground and pakistan knows this and takes advantage of it.

Without more troops on the ground to atleast make it difficult for the taliban to cross the borders then yes we are forced to drag this out a little longer.

And if we do pull out, and for argument sake the taliban does take control of the country again. then Canadians will have to ask themselfs what price we as a nation are willing to pay for thier victory. I mean we have already shown them that with all our tech we can be beaten, and unlike them we have no taste for prolonged combat. And if they decide to persue there terrorist ways and punish us in some way in the future, perhaps another 9/11 incident. It would cost us more to bring in more sercurity measures to prevent such attacks than the actual war ever will. Are we ready for that bill...

And do we really think that after we leave that the rest of the nations won't follow suit, leaving the British and US hanging out in the wind. What would that do for the NATO treaty, will it survive, and if it does not how will that effect our own defense, will the US still offer to protect us under thier umbrella, or will we now have to defend ourselfs, with 56,000 troops. I know we are not ready for that bill...

So there is more at stake than what we think, or perhaps i'm full of shit, and nothing will happen except all our efforts here in afgan will be for nothing and alot of good men and women will have died for nothing more than an ill thought out dream of bringing peace to a nation or for that matter any future nation. as the world will already know that we are quitters.

Canada is not to blame for Taliban crossing the mountains and coming into Afghanistan. It isn't our area of responsibility. Forces are able to walk right by because some NATO forces are not engaging them.

It isn't Canada's resolve I am worried about. It is Afghanistan's. I'm concerned that they won't go beyond the tribalism they have now. I fear they won't be a nation even after many, many years of support by Canada.

The same arguments that you are making are the ones that have been used in Iraq. If Canada is planning on a five year, ten year, fifteen year or longer commitment, then the government should be straight forward about it. And that commitment had better have some measurable progress because let's face it, this year hasn't shown Afghanistan nearly ready enough. I'd hate to be having this argument again in 2010, 2012, etc, etc.

mikedavid00 · January 7, 2007

It's NOT a WAR, we have never declared WAR, it was supposed to be reconstruction of a nation, with NO offensive

Mak it go away! Plug your ears! Hear no evil see no evil!

Please stop calling it a war, calling it a war validates it when it should have NO validation

Now get your head in the sand and hear the voices of the CBC telling you the environment is important.

I'll focus on realitites.

madmax · January 7, 2007

I'll focus on realitites.

You support cutting and running.

All that will happen are gangs from Pakistan will secure regions of Afganistan and then try to invade the central gov't. this is why I feel we should pull out of Afganistan. It's not worth our time.
under any circumstances.

So you don't support the Liberals or the Conservatives or the Mission?

Fortunata · January 7, 2007

I think we should face reality. Yes, Afghanistan is just and honourable but unwinnable as we citizens think of winning. We will never be able to convince factions that we should be there; that they should not fight against the occupier or that "our" way is their best way.

The best that we can do is train enough Afghanis (and if they're not corrupt that would be nice) to go in where the government needs them to be. Pakistan is breeding the Taliban, harbouring them, training them in untold numbers and financing is coming from all over the Islamic world. We can win battles but we can't decisively win the war.

It's ridiculous that if you are a realist you get accused of not supporting our troops or our "supposed" mission. I have great faith in our troops doing all they are capable of doing. They are not capable doing it all no matter how many we had. It has to come from the Afghans themselves; average Achmed Afghani has to want to have a life different than what he/she had under the Taliban, the warlords or of any occupiers and make that happen themselves by not giving, what we call our enemy, safe sanctuary or encouragement. In fact they need to let the fanatical factions among themselves know that it isn't ok and deal with them.

madmax · January 7, 2007

I think we should face reality.
It's ridiculous that if you are a realist you get accused of not supporting our troops or our "supposed" mission.

"Supporting Our Troops" is often used by governments involved in bad policy choices.

A government job is to support their policy and rally the citizens and the troops to support that policy.

When government goals are unclear or unachievable, the message that governments send is to "support our troops" which is a message all citizens can understand.

Army Guy · January 7, 2007

jdobbin:

Canada is not to blame for Taliban crossing the mountains and coming into Afghanistan. It isn't our area of responsibility. Forces are able to walk right by because some NATO forces are not engaging them.

I'm not placing the blame for anything at Canada's feet. It is a known fact that there is not enough NATO troops on the ground to accomplish all the security tasks that need to be done. What i was alluding to was Canada is limited to it's current size of operations and the type of troops deployed by it's size of current military, and that was a decission made by the Canada people and our government.

It isn't Canada's resolve I am worried about. It is Afghanistan's. I'm concerned that they won't go beyond the tribalism they have now. I fear they won't be a nation even after many, many years of support by Canada

Canada is one of the few leading nations that is actually keeping the taliban at bay or occupied in other areas, and our resolve at home is vanishing which translates into our nation pulling it's support for this mission...and if that happens others will follow our lead, and if that is allowed to happen thier will be other consquences as i already mentioned that will far out wiegh the consquences of us staying...Then we will never know if Afgan could or would be a nation able to stand on her own feet.

The example i use is Yugo, it took NATO and UN over 13 years to secure a lasting peace( and still has troops there today). Not that it is perfect but it is a start.

The same arguments that you are making are the ones that have been used in Iraq. If Canada is planning on a five year, ten year, fifteen year or longer commitment, then the government should be straight forward about it. And that commitment had better have some measurable progress because let's face it, this year hasn't shown Afghanistan nearly ready enough. I'd hate to be having this argument again in 2010, 2012, etc, etc.

One can not predict the future, we did not plan a 13 year deploy in Bosina, nor a 25 year stay in Cyprus. but we did stay until there was a peace or stability. two diffent missions i know, but then again our government and people were told of those very facts before we deployed. We have made a commitment as a nation, and should stay the course until the mission is done. How long is that going to take, no one can say for certainity, but i can tell you this all this debate, and lack of resolve across the globe is not helping, and the enemy knows this, and is using this again'st us. What is needed is someone or some nation to show the leadership that is needed to bring about the action and support to win this conflict...the only question is whom or what nation...my question is why not Canada ?

If our soldiers are telling us that this is worth our efforts, our lives, our tax dollars then why do we not listen...I mean whom has everything to gain by going home earily it is the soldiers..and yet they are pleading other wise...but we are also getting tired of the lack of support for the mission...and it is begining to take it's toll...including on myself...Not to be confused with the support for the soldiers because that is at it's highest since korea...But soldiers are begining to question themselfs about returning for another tour of duty...

White Doors · January 7, 2007

As long as progress continues to be met as it is now. That's how long. How long did it take you to throw up the white flag? Let me guess... When the CPC's won power Jan 23/06?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

And you should check what I have been saying for some time now. Long before the Conservatives won power, I have been saying that war might not have a decisive victory because of Pakistan. You disagree with that?

DO you think wars have EVER gone as exactly as planned? Do you think that wars are a painless medical procedure? get behind the troops and stop only parroting negative things about the situation. That's the point.

White Doors · January 7, 2007

I think we should face reality. Yes, Afghanistan is just and honourable but unwinnable as we citizens think of winning. We will never be able to convince factions that we should be there; that they should not fight against the occupier or that "our" way is their best way.

BS. How Do YOU know it's unwinnable? It is, in fact, winnable and we are winning. The only reason that it would be unwinnable is for the majority of people in western nations to think like you and we pull out. The afghans are firmly in favour of us and Nato being there as is shown by poll after poll. We are doing much to reconstruct the nation as is shown by the results - if you bothered to look.

A loser attitude like yours is in fact our biggest impediment to winning it. think about it.

New Hospital Symbolizes Afghan Progress in South
By Spc. Jon H. Arguello, USA

Special to American Forces Press Service

QALAT, Afghanistan, Jan. 26, 2006 – Few infrastructure projects inject the Afghan people with as much hope for a stable and healthy life for their families as a new hospital. Along with many of the new roads and bridges built during reconstruction, a new hospital will now bring that hope to the people of southern Afghanistan.

Army Maj. John Drobnica, the Qalat provincial reconstruction team's doctor, inspects one of the Zabul Regional Teaching Hospital's new incubators during a tour of the Afghan facilities Jan. 12. U.S. Army photo

The new Zabul Regional Teaching Hospital is located between Kabul and Kandahar and will provide the middle provinces of Afghanistan with a full-service hospital with state-of-the-art equipment, Qalat's provincial reconstruction team commander said during a tour of the hospital this week with local and international officials.

"But this hospital is more than a place for Afghans throughout Zabul province to seek health care," Army Lt. Col. Thomas Goodfellow, said. "It's a milestone symbolizing the strong foundation being built, on which a future prosperous, secure and healthy nation will grow."

The hospital was built with funds provided by the United Arab Emirates. Local contractors built the facility and installed the $4 million worth of equipment, which Qalat PRT soldiers and United Arab Emirates forces escorted from Kandahar Airfield.

"The complete project was a classic example of interagency cooperation," Goodfellow said. "The Qalat PRT, Afghan Ministry of Health, U.A.E embassy staff and U.A.E. forces, technicians from India, and Charlie Company medical staff from the 173rd Support Battalion on (Kandahar Air Field) played important roles in the successful project."

The new facility can hold up to 130 patients and includes a Level 1 trauma center, the highest possible classification of care. It also has major and minor surgery facilities and care perform pediatric and neo-natal care, and full-service dental care. The hospital is truly a sign of progress for the Afghan people, the colonel said.

"The people of Afghanistan will be forever grateful to all involved in building this hospital," Zabul's provincial governor, Arman, said. "The facility is very impressive, and it's beautiful to see where the country is going."

Goodfellow agreed with the governor's assessment. "The local populace sees the provincial government moving the region in a positive direction. That's invaluable here, whether it's with a hospital or bridge or school," he said.

"There's more to a hospital than health care," Goodfellow noted. "A hospital brings people hope, and hope can turn into vision. If we can get all Afghans to share a common vision, there's no end to what Afghanistan can do for itself."

source: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2006/20060126_4015.html

geoffrey · January 7, 2007

The problem is that we take the Taliban out of a village, then have to leave the village to continue. Six months from then the Taliban are back in that village. The European's need to step up and cover those villages while Canadians are off doing the work. But they won't, and until they do, I agree, the war is largely unwinnable.

NATO and the UN need to be thrown right out the window. It's mostly a collection of fair weather friends beyond Canada, the US, Britain and the Aussies (oh... and the Dutch). I certainly don't agree with Canada being in a treaty to defend France when France won't lift a finger in helping out another NATO partner.

Army Guy · January 7, 2007

Fortunata:

I think we should face reality. Yes, Afghanistan is just and honourable but unwinnable as we citizens think of winning. We will never be able to convince factions that we should be there; that they should not fight against the occupier or that "our" way is their best way.

If the mission is just and honourable then why not support it. As for the unwinnable piont, i beg to differ, we are winning we are reclaiming areas that were strictly taliban occupied, we are making great strides in rebuilding a nation, and it's infra structure a very slow process, but it is happening, my piont is it would happen alot faster if the support for the mission was there "not" only in Canada but across the western world.

Kind of hard to win the game if the fans are not there.

The factions you talk about are very minor in numbers, the Majority of Afgans want peace but these thugs that roam the country side terrorize them on a daily basis. and carry out thier threats with deadly consquences...A large number of these factions are made up of afgans paid to fight, and in this country money talks, it feeds thier hungry families, with more support for the mission comes more monies which could be used to upgrade wages of the Afgan army, making it a viable alternative.

I also want to piont out that we are not pushing our way of life here, we operate under the Afgan government, and most of our policies that we uphold are what the people want, such as education, freedom of expression etc.. much like ours but with an Afgan twist...ie i think it will be a while before you see thongs at the beach but again it is a start...

The best that we can do is train enough Afghanis (and if they're not corrupt that would be nice) to go in where the government needs them to be. Pakistan is breeding the Taliban, harbouring them, training them in untold numbers and financing is coming from all over the Islamic world. We can win battles but we can't decisively win the war.

If this is a winning strategy then why not use it, are we saying that the west can not out finance the islamic countries. But that is not going to happen if there is no support for this mission. in fact the Islamic nations already know this, and in thier minds they've already won in Afgan, what will be thier next conquest, and what will stop them from attempting it else where...And what will be the consquences of NATO lossing to this tactic.

It's ridiculous that if you are a realist you get accused of not supporting our troops or our "supposed" mission. I have great faith in our troops doing all they are capable of doing. They are not capable doing it all no matter how many we had. It has to come from the Afghans themselves; average Achmed Afghani has to want to have a life different than what he/she had under the Taliban, the warlords or of any occupiers and make that happen themselves by not giving, what we call our enemy, safe sanctuary or encouragement. In fact they need to let the fanatical factions among themselves know that it isn't ok and deal with them.

I used to preach that very thing, but seen the light this X-mas on my trip home to see my family...Yes you can do one with out the other.. as strange as that may sound, as long as your reasoning is sound. being a realist is not really a sound reason, if our government and people have not taken every opition available to prove that our mission in afgan is untennable then i would agree it's time to pull out...

But we've not done everything that could be done, niether has the rest of the western countries. in fact public opinion across the globe has held the mission back.

A question that maybe asked is if our soldiers are doing everything possiable to accomplish this mission, including risk thier lives, would it not be fair to ask the same thing from our citizens, to do everything possiable to get this nation on it's feet...

Perhaps this is the question that every Canadian should be asking themselfs before it agrees to send it's soldiers on another mission ARE we willing to go the distance, and what is it going to cost us, in monies and sacrafice.

jdobbin · January 7, 2007

DO you think wars have EVER gone as exactly as planned? Do you think that wars are a painless medical procedure? get behind the troops and stop only parroting negative things about the situation. That's the point.

If everyone cheerleads the mission, it doesn't serve the mission.

How do you handle the problem of Pakistan? Can a war have a decisive victory with that country continuing to destabilize the region?

That question might make you angry but it is a question that goes to the heart of whether the mission can succeed.

Army Guy · January 7, 2007

geoffrey:

The problem is that we take the Taliban out of a village, then have to leave the village to continue. Six months from then the Taliban are back in that village. The European's need to step up and cover those villages while Canadians are off doing the work. But they won't, and until they do, I agree, the war is largely unwinnable.

That is a problem, and has forced us into retaking of the same territory over and over again. Which is why we need strong leadership, to convince these other countries into getting more involved. But even without thier efforts we have made a huge difference in these areas.

NATO and the UN need to be thrown right out the window. It's mostly a collection of fair weather friends beyond Canada, the US, Britain and the Aussies (oh... and the Dutch). I certainly don't agree with Canada being in a treaty to defend France when France won't lift a finger in helping out another NATO partner.

I agree it needs to be restructured, but then again we can not become one of those fair weather friends our selfs, and any decissions we make in regards to Afgan need to be supported by our other trusted allieds or risk having to defend ourselfs something we can not afford, or rather something we choose not to do..

cynic43 · January 7, 2007

It's immportant for Canadaians to know that this is an international

force that was called upon by the UN and taken on by all NATO forces.

It is astonishing how many of my otherwise knowledgeable university peers don't know this. Id say about 80% in my experience don't know this. Out of those 80% I can say that an overwhelming majority (if not all) do not support the war, and when I ask one further and describe the importance of contracts, they usually give me, "there is a better way" or "I do not agree with that". Of course I live in the Toronto area so maybe my results should be expected to be more like 95%.

These people... Educated? Sometimes. Opinionated? Yes.

That's the thing. Lefties, students, and other emotionally charged people don't care to bother themselves with the fact. They just use emotions and idealism.

They also like to wave around their school flag to show they are elite and somehow their say is morer important then everyone elses.

I find people in Canadian academia to be the most un-experienced, idealogical, out of this world, self rightous, elite wanna-be's on the face of this planet.

They have a love on for the UN, Natives, and gay rights. I don't get it.

I'm just glad i'm finished and done school. I hope to never go back to those group of whining idiots.

Fortunata · January 7, 2007

Army Guy:

If the mission is just and honourable then why not support it.

I do support it. See, just as I said, if you add one bit of anything that isn't rah, rah, rah, you get accused of not supporting, etc.

As for the rest about winning? Well we'll see. Nobody in either the former Liberal government or the Steve government has said what winning means. In my opinion this is so they can say we've won no matter what the actual expectations were and what the reality on ground is at that time. So, we can declare ourselves the winner no matter the situation.

As for the rest of it, yes we know what we see on tv. I also have heard from NGO's and others that we are winning the same as the US is winning in Iraq. We win the battles. I do not think WE will win it. I think the Afghans will win it if they want to and if it is to be won.