On Atheism

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Betsy,

What is the difference? Either way...you'll end up being doctrined and "brainwashed".

Atheism, just like any other belief is passed down to children.

I disagree, I would say that very few atheists, and even fewer agnostics, are are a product of atheist parents. Such a small percentage, in fact, that none are found here. Of those on this forum that claim to be atheists, none have said "My Parents raised me that way", virtually all of them have said that it was a product of critical thinking.

God is much like Santa Claus in this way. You don't realize that the the common belief system of your peers is folly until you are old enough to examine the logical flaws yourself.

Figleaf,

Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, and Omniscience

I believe the classic 'triumvirate mantra' has 'omnipresence' rather than omnibenevolence.

[betsy]

Dear Betsy,

What is the difference? Either way...you'll end up being doctrined and "brainwashed".

Atheism, just like any other belief is passed down to children.

I disagree, I would say that very few atheists, and even fewer agnostics, are are a product of atheist parents.

Atheism was not as popular and rampant before as it is now.

Yes, I guess few atheists are a product of atheist parents. In fact, I'd bank on saying that a lot of atheists (depending on their age), have been born and raised in religion. Which only shows that eventually, a person disatisfied with his family's belief will seek his/her own belief.

Such a small percentage, in fact, that none are found here. Of those on this forum that claim to be atheists, none have said "My Parents raised me that way", virtually all of them have said that it was a product of critical thinking.

I assume a lot of atheists in this forum have been born and raised...and had belonged to a religion before becoming atheists.

What would these present-day atheists impart to their children? Of course it will be their own reflections...their own opinions...their own theories...and their own beliefs.

[newbie]

Quotes to ponder:

YALE PHYSICIST Dr Henry Margena, “To put it bluntly, science no longer contains absolute truths … the old distinction between the natural and the supernatural has become spurious.”

NOBEL LAUREATE PROFESSOR CHARLES RICHET, “We must accept dowsing as a fact. It is useless to work up experiments merely to prove its existence. It exists. What is needed is its development.”

PROFESSORS OSIS AND HARALDSSON, ON DEATH BED VISIONS, “Death-bed visions, combined with other afterlife research, make possible a fact-based, rational and therefore belief in the life after death.”

DR CARL JUNG, one of the greatest psychiatrists ever, “I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud.”

DR FRED HOYLE, British cosmologist, “When science begins the study of non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the centuries of its experience.”

PROFESSOR BERTRAND RUSSELL, “We should not go for complete skepticism, but for degrees of probability.”

[MightyAC]

I am an atheist and my family considers themselves Christian. Like an increasing number of people that consider themselves Christian they don't go to church, say prayers, etc. I imagine they'd disagree with me but I think Christianinty has become like a superstition for them. Nobody really believes that something bad will happen if they open an umberella indoors but we avoid it anyway.

Anway as I was a product of religious-lite family I think I was more free to make up my own mind. As a kid I asked my parents if I could attend Sunday school because a friend of mine did. I went for about a year before I lost interest. I remember thinking it was pretty cool that they would reward me with candy for memorizing bible passages, "accepting Jesus into my heart", etc. All part of the brainwashing process I suppose. I think it is very important for the survival of religion that they instill the idea of blind faith before children become old enough to use logic.

Anyway, I grew up, learned to use common sense and respectfully question authority when ideas didn't make sense. Even at a fairly young age I remember questioning my parents about the fairttale like bible stories.

My children won't be raised with religion but they will be free to learn about it at any age. Like myself I hope they learn about all world religions and the history behind them. I always find it humorous that most atheists and agnostics know more about religious history than most that "believe".

[myata]

I'd take exception equating atheism (more precisely, the non militant form of it) with a "belief". The latter means, taking something on faith because it cannot be proven or objectively observed. The "rational" atheism (i.e. the one which does not make its goal to disprove existence of gods), to the contrary, means that decisions and considerations should be based on reason and objective reality. Therefore, if anything, its the opposite of a belief, at least conceptually. The other, militant form is fully irrational and is worse than formal religion because it denies its (religions's) benefitial functions to the society while providing no benefits of its own.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear myata,

(I once owned a fantastic bicycle of that brand...)

I'd take exception equating atheism (more precisely, the non militant form of it) with a "belief". The latter means, taking something on faith because it cannot be proven or objectively observed. The "rational" atheism (i.e. the one which does not make its goal to disprove existence of gods), to the contrary, means that decisions and considerations should be based on reason and objective reality. Therefore, if anything, its the opposite of a belief, at least conceptually.

Atheism is a 'belief' of sorts, because you are accepting or professing one of the two answers to be the 'true' one. The highlighted bit above is referred to as 'empirical', ie: that which is learned or accepted as 'truth' through observation. The italicized bit from your post, or that which is 'the logical conclusion' is called 'a priori'. The problem with a priori 'knowledge of the existence of God' is that is based solely on the causal argument, which in turn relies on one big exception to the theory.

[Figleaf]

Thing is, organized religion has a bigger problem than simply being unprovable. The bulk of doctrine is also implausible. If theists were content with claiming existence of a remote inscrutable God, there might be little to debate. But most traditions describe an activist, but essentially schizophrenic, deity. The God described in the Bible doesn't simply seem mysterious -- he acts like a goof. So sensible people ask themselves: Would a 'God' worth worshipping be like that?

[cybercoma]

Religions are destructively incompatible with each other and should therefore be abandoned for a focus on the here and now. Instead of the illusion of an afterlife and trying to appease a mystical entity, we should be focused on taking care of one another because each other is all we have.

It is not simply the Qu'ran that preaches death and destruction to 'infidels' and non-believers, it is also The Bible:

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. 6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. 12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

And although Jesus preached love and peace, he certainly didn't teach that the laws of the old testament no longer apply:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In fact, he is endorsing those laws and the laws state that all non-believers must be killed.

Now, if you want to take the Bible as the inspired word of God and it is these rules we should live by, then I feel sorry for you because you are no better than those who would kill for the words in the Qu'ran. Islam doesn't have the market cornered on brutality, all religions are brutal and belittle the very nature of our existence.

The religions of this world promise something 'otherworldly' to their followers, which in turn makes what we do here and now nonsense, so long as it appeases the God du jour. We are animals and like all other animals we die and rot. Just the fact that we came to be is beautiful. The fact that we will die means that we have lived and that in itself is beautiful.

But our time is limited and we need to choose to take care of one another, here and now. We need to stop labelling children as holding certain beliefs that the surely could not understand. A 5 year old cannot be anymore Catholic or Protestant than they could be Muslim because they cannot possibly understand the belief systems they're being labelled with. We wouldn't label a child Conservative or Liberal or Communist or Capitalist for obvious reasons, I think those obvious reasons extend to religious labelling.

We need to teach our children to think constructively, critically and analytically. It is a shame that some parents want to teach their children that faith is a virtue. Faith is belief without reason and the last thing we need to embrace is unreasonable beliefs, especially ones we're being told should be killed for.

It's time to stop this religious nonsense, embrace the natural world and the universe for how beautiful and complex they really are and start taking care of one another in the here and now. I will not say with certainty that there is no God because no one can, just as we can't say for certainty there is no teapot orbiting the sun (see: Russell's teapot). I will say that there very probably is not one and that wasting time, resources and energy having faith in religion -- which, although may not be the cause, has not stopped horrible misery and suffering on earth (such as the holocaust) -- is incredibly foolish.

[Figleaf]

Thank you, cybercoma, for a truly excellent post.

[cybercoma]

I'm surprised someone read it. Thanks for reading.

[newbie]

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In fact, he is endorsing those laws and the laws state that all non-believers must be killed.

A point of order: Matthew 23:37-40. Just another contradiction in this great and wonderful holiest of hypocricy. Kill the unbelievers? Not a Jesus I would like to follow.

[myata]

Atheism is a 'belief' of sorts, because you are accepting or professing one of the two answers to be the 'true' one. The highlighted bit above is referred to as 'empirical', ie: that which is learned or accepted as 'truth' through observation. The italicized bit from your post, or that which is 'the logical conclusion' is called 'a priori'. The problem with a priori 'knowledge of the existence of God' is that is based solely on the causal argument, which in turn relies on one big exception to the theory.

Well, no. I don't give one of two answers to be true because the question has no meaning to me. Or, to make it more precise, gods do not exist for me - because I've no need for them and they don't affect me in any way. But I find it totally useless to go on a mission to prove that they don't exist (or existed) for someone else. To even think of such an undertaking one would have to start with undisputed definition of God (or gods) and that in itself is very much godforsaken affair.

People can have different beliefs (or none for that matter) but for that very reason in their dealings with each other they should stick to that part of reality which they all agree upon.

BTW and FYI the bicycle you had was a "Miyata", Japan's fine export.

[DarkAngel_]

If I was born into a family who don't believe there is a God...they'll be more likely to point out faults and express their criticisms or disdain or contempt or ridicule in religions (and that is what I'll be 'doctrined" with)... of course, I'll end up with an atheist belief. That's the natural way of things. We learn from parents.

What is the difference? Either way...you'll end up being doctrined and "brainwashed".

Atheism, just like any other belief is passed down to children.

your right, but if i was your parent i'd never teach you a doctrine of belief, morals perhaps, which may make you atheist, but no belief, exept in family and good freinds.

ya know, i never forced my little brother into atheism, but i never let a lie past him, if a person lie's a 'pretend fact' to him, i straiten it up, then i tell him the truth, no agenda behind it: no criticism or fault blame.

also if i had a son, i'd teach him from a very young age what science, math, and history is, if he went to bible class, he'd know so much of science, math, and history, he could add to the conversation enough to make his own choice, and that is my wish, that he be independent in his learning by what i taught him (please note i'd only teach him fact, and give him plenty of room to move around in, as well, give him a good definition of imagination, and help him know the real part of reality, the rest is up to him)

as well, i found Chuck U. Farlie's comments very painful, i am atheist and am happy for what i know, i have found so much and thought of so much that i think i've grown past every dull constant emotion a human my be drunk by feeling. i am never just happy, never just sad, they come and go and i never feel a dull moment, but there's more then that: things are clearer to me, i'm happy to know what it is i see when it is beautiful, i never felt so 'me,' so complexed yet outspoken, as if i see everything from an equal stand point, even my own theories. i am a poor man, with not much, but more then most. everything i have i need, this pc is one thing i need, my mind needs more then books to expand, i am often faced with trouble, but i try everything on my own, that way it is done honorably, i am individual, i hope you do not categorize people like M&M's, i don't believe you could know my color. maybe you meant something else?

the nonexistence of god, means the existence of something else, something...more, that is a good thing, not an absence: or 'glass half empty' thing. do you resent atheism? or was it an observation? proofs?

[DarkAngel_]

Well, no. I don't give one of two answers to be true because the question has no meaning to me. Or, to make it m.ore precise, gods do not exist for me - because I've no need for them and they don't affect me in any way

People can have different beliefs (or none for that matter) but for that very reason in their dealings with each other they should stick to that part of reality which they all agree upon.

i agree with you, i have no use for a god as well, but its more a change in mindhood for me: i loved mankind more, but i'd also like to state, an example:

a fear of other faiths is common in war, if war ever came, know that i would never kill one of my own(a human), but if a man runs at me, weapon at hand and faith blazing, i will defend my family, one day maybe all of us might have to defend our home, but would you defend a muslim, satanic, pegan, celtic, wicka, or atheist? if others with the same belief tryed to kill you or your family? i think you'de not trust anyone, but we are stronger together! i don't care the belief, if you'de fight together with hounor, what does your faith matter? it is just to you, as it is just to them.

i'm atheist because then i don't have to pick a side, but it seems we are picked out for the slaughter.

so i try my best to persuade people to believe diffrently,

as not to kill or be killed if a time of hardship comes.

[MightyAC]

Props to Cybercoma and Figleaf...

There is an old phrase that says a camel is a horse created by committee... An obvious jab at committees, debate and consensus, but what about religions created by committee, debate and consensus; wasn’t the direction and meaning of Christianity determined by debate between feuding cults? Maybe we’d be far better off today if one of the other sides that would not have connected Christianity with the old testament…Still one has to wonder about those that devote their lives to a story decided upon by cults, kings, emperors and scribes over a millennia ago.