Alberta Jobs

[geoffrey]

Where do you suppose we get these people from? Our central government prevents us from hiring out of province workers by providing them with generous compensation to sit on their ass while we suffer.

"Suffer"???

We have to pay more for products because we must pay inflated wages to everyone that works here.

If Canada was truly a country, there would be a mandatory program where if one area is suffering a labour shortage, those on welfare would be forced to move out and work for a decent wage.

If they could get a decent wage, rather than 45K for 50/hour weeks, maybe they'd come on their own, instead of your suggestion of shipping them like cattle to your labor camps.

They still make more than welfare... I don't understand why unemployment is an option in a country with a desperate labour crisis. Unless of course, we are prepared to admit that Canada's equalisation ideology only works one way... from Alberta, to the RoC. Where the hell is the RoC's help to us right now... some provinces have 15%+ unemployment.

Get off their asses and find a job... in Alberta!

45k for 50 hours a week is good money when otherwise you'd be on EI/welfare.

[Figleaf]

Where do you suppose we get these people from? Our central government prevents us from hiring out of province workers by providing them with generous compensation to sit on their ass while we suffer.

"Suffer"???

We have to pay more for products because we must pay inflated wages to everyone that works here.

But don't you all EARN higher wages then too? I think you need to bone up on economics. Your 'suffering' is the kind of trouble other places would gladly trade you for. Besides, you sound like some kind of commie ... if the market is driving high labor prices, that's just capitalism at work.

They still make more than welfare... I don't understand why unemployment is an option in a country with a desperate labour crisis.

Do you mean unemployment insurance, or simply the status of being unemployed? If the former, be advised that employees and employers pay premiums for the coverage, and that's how come benefits are available. Also note, the system is fully funded from premiums.

Unless of course, we are prepared to admit that Canada's equalisation ideology only works one way... from Alberta, to the RoC.

The formula works the same for all provinces. If Alberta were in economic difficulty it would receive equalization payments.

Where the hell is the RoC's help to us right now... some provinces have 15%+ unemployment.

Get off their asses and find a job... in Alberta!

45k for 50 hours a week is good money when otherwise you'd be on EI/welfare.

It sounds to me like some Alberta employers are just not willing to pay the going rate. They'd rather blame the government for their problems than bid for services in the competitive labor market.

[geoffrey]

But don't you all EARN higher wages then too? I think you need to bone up on economics. Your 'suffering' is the kind of trouble other places would gladly trade you for. Besides, you sound like some kind of commie ... if the market is driving high labor prices, that's just capitalism at work.

Not when it's artifically created by policies that create and sustain unemployment.

Do you mean unemployment insurance, or simply the status of being unemployed? If the former, be advised that employees and employers pay premiums for the coverage, and that's how come benefits are available. Also note, the system is fully funded from premiums.

Absolutely. Unfortunately it's another transfer where we see much of the money from the low unemployment provinces of Alberta, Manitoba and BC go to Quebec and the Maritimes to sustain seasonal workers (biggest joke ever).

Unless of course, we are prepared to admit that Canada's equalisation ideology only works one way... from Alberta, to the RoC.

The formula works the same for all provinces. If Alberta were in economic difficulty it would receive equalization payments.

Let's be practical... even through Alberta's lowest of lows, where people were jumping off buildings when they lost everything, Alberta was a net contributor. We have been since the early 1960's. Where as we have cronically unemployed and stagnant economies in the Maritimes... what are we going to do to change that besides giving them better benefits to stay unemployed.

It sounds to me like some Alberta employers are just not willing to pay the going rate. They'd rather blame the government for their problems than bid for services in the competitive labor market.

The going rate in Alberta is much higher than elsewhere, it's shown by our average income which is 10-20% higher than Ontario depending on the salary survey. If the market was working, we'd see Newfies who are technically not earning any money moving out here to work. But the market isn't working because the government often makes it more profitable to just stay on welfare and kick back and relax.

Alberta's labour crisis could be the solution to the Maritimes welfare situation... the one where I hear many board posters here claiming that so many are on welfare that the government can't afford to cut taxes to encourage business. Send them out here, have them work, get them off your tax provided benefits and cut the rate considerably, encourage growth.

Alberta's labour situation could be just what Canada needs to get out of the culture of entitlement and defeat and towards a productive economy again. Or it could destroy the only region in Canada that is growing at an acceptable rate economically.

[Figleaf]

... if the market is driving high labor prices, that's just capitalism at work.

Not when it's artifically created by policies that create and sustain unemployment.

But you said there's no unemployment in Alberta. Face facts, you have no real valid complaint.

Let's be practical... even through Alberta's lowest of lows, where people were jumping off buildings when they lost everything, Alberta was a net contributor.

The fact that Alberta did not end up receiving equalization through its 'recession', is clear evidence that it was never really that bad. If some soft-headed people decided to off themselves when the good times stopped rolling, that hardly indicates broad economic pain, certainly compared to what Canadians in poorer parts of the country live with on a regular basis.

... we have cronically unemployed and stagnant economies in the Maritimes... what are we going to do to change that besides giving them better benefits to stay unemployed.

In the last 10 years things have been improving in the Maritimes.

It sounds to me like some Alberta employers are just not willing to pay the going rate. They'd rather blame the government for their problems than bid for services in the competitive labor market.

The going rate in Alberta is much higher than elsewhere, it's shown by our average income which is 10-20% higher than Ontario depending on the salary survey. If the market was working, we'd see Newfies who are technically not earning any money moving out here to work. But the market isn't working because the government often makes it more profitable to just stay on welfare and kick back and relax.

If Alberta industries can't outbid Newfie welfare benefits, then I think that proves my point about them not being willing to pay competitive wages.

[geoffrey]

Not when it's artifically created by policies that create and sustain unemployment.

But you said there's no unemployment in Alberta. Face facts, you have no real valid complaint.

Sure I do. It's not Alberta thats the problem here. It's the policies that allow able bodied people to be on welfare and EI when there are plenty of job openings for them within their country.

... we have cronically unemployed and stagnant economies in the Maritimes... what are we going to do to change that besides giving them better benefits to stay unemployed.

In the last 10 years things have been improving in the Maritimes.

And they outted the parties that did these things because it came at a cost to their welfare systems.

If Alberta industries can't outbid Newfie welfare benefits, then I think that proves my point about them not being willing to pay competitive wages.

Or that Newfies get too much in seasonal EI. It should be enough for bread and water, maybe the occasional fruit to prevent scurvey. EI isn't a method of vacation like many believe, it's for a month, maybe two until you find a new job. It needs to be caped out at 6 months use for your total life, something along those lines.

Why do we not treat it like other insurance programs? Someone that constantly makes claims should pay considerably higher premiums. Seasonal workers should be giving 50% of their income to the program, as it seems like they draw that 50% back in the off-season.

Unemployment shouldn't be a choice, I don't see why others believe it should be. No one has the right to sit around on our money waiting for their perfect job, especially when tons of adequate jobs are available.

[Figleaf]

It's not Alberta thats the problem here. It's the policies that allow able bodied people to be on welfare and EI when there are plenty of job openings for them within their country.

You're right, it's not Alberta that's the 'problem'. The problem is that rather than competing for employees with better remuneration, some seem to want statist intervention to provide cheap labor for their personal benefit.

In the last 10 years things have been improving in the Maritimes.

And they outted the parties that did these things because it came at a cost to their welfare systems.

No. Parties are not responsible.

If Alberta industries can't outbid Newfie welfare benefits, then I think that proves my point about them not being willing to pay competitive wages.

Or that Newfies get too much in seasonal EI.

"Too much" as compared to the pitance some industries are willing to pay for actual work?

It should be enough for bread and water, ...

It's an insurance system for which premiums are paid, not a Victorian workhouse.

It needs to be caped out at 6 months use for your total life, something along those lines.

Actually, if it were that ungenerous, much of the economic advantages would be lost. Except for those who abuse it, EI dramatically improves labor mobility and therefore the economy as a whole.

No one has the right to sit around on our money waiting for their perfect job, especially when tons of adequate jobs are available.

Where are these jobs? Your imagination must be quite something if you think it's a good deal to travel to another province for the privilege of working fifty hour weeks for 45k and sleeping in your car.

[Charles Anthony]

If Alberta industries can't outbid Newfie welfare benefits, then I think that proves my point about them not being willing to pay competitive wages.

Proves your point??? The fact that Newfies are leaving Newfoundland to seek work disproves your point.

Or that Newfies get too much in seasonal EI.

"Too much" as compared to the pitance some industries are willing to pay for actual work?

Correct.

The alternative is not Employment Insurance but rather a twisted free-lunch: poor people (who work for a pittance) are taxed and subsidize non-working rich (who do not work) but collect puny-but-equal-or-greater-than-working-wages government cheques.

[Topaz]

Yes, Alberta is booming and people are rushing out there to get their share of the riches and I hope they all make good. The downside to this booming industry is, Alberta has now become the largest polluter in Canada, and I don't think Harper's new environment minister will do anything different to change their own province treasures! What about the health of the people working in the oil business and what happens to all the new building, when the all the oil sands are done and gone??

[margrace]

Alberta will be just like Newfoundland when the Cod disappeared.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

The idea is to follow the boom. Go where the money is. When the tar-sands are gone, time to move on. The problem with Alberta and why I will likely not go out there is the lack of affordable housing (apparently). A buddy in Calgary recently mentioned, although he may have been exaggerating, that a trailer in a trailer park could cost you upwards of $300000 there! Those are some rich (or heavily debted) Trailer Park Boys!

[Hydraboss]

Figleaf, you are clueless. I can only assume that you are simply trolling out of boredom.

The kids...yes, kids...that I was referring to are grade 12 graduates (sometimes), work lots of hours, get two weeks off a year (paid), full benefits, share options, 4% automatic RRSP contribution (employer funded - not them personally), can put in another 4% if they wish, are supplied with all workwear and safety gear free of charge, get a ride to work if needed, receive training (on-the-job or apprenticeship if they qualify), and get treated like silver (no, not gold).

And for this, the lowest paid ones make around $45,000.00 per year. Did you make that when you graduated high school (assuming you did)? How many people working retail make that much that you personally know?

I'm starting to believe that perhaps the reason you have such a chip on your shoulder about Alberta is that you are jealous of what we have here. Perhaps you don't make $45k/year? Does your jealousy cloud your judgement or do you simply respond with the most inflammatory comments you can muster?

Why don't you try adding something of value to the discussion.

[Live From China]

Some questions since I am not up on this topic.

Does Alberta go through a boom-or-bust cycle like other provinces, or has it been immune to this kind of thing? I have had friends who have told me that Alberta has never suffered from this economic disease, and yet another friend of mine who works in Fort McMurray said in the mid- to late-80's, that people literally walked (with only the shirts on their backs) away from Ft. McMurray when the tar sands went bust for awhile.

I have heard the same magical stories about Grande Prairie. It has never suffered from hard times, the streets are paved with gold, etc., etc. I personally don't believe it.

So next question: what's going to happen to all those high-paying jobs when a bust hits? Are Burger King employees going to suddenly be cut back to $8/h? And what happens to the home owners who are no longer able to get $3000/m for renting out their house?

[jdobbin]

A not go so good piece of news for Alberta?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/business_usa_gas_col

"The supply picture is looking rather negative," King said. "You have to go back to 1984 to see a (similar) downward trend."

[Hydraboss]

LFC, Alberta has gone through the boom-bust days in the past. The 80's were extremely rough due to the NEP (Figleaf will tell you it never happened). Mortgages shot up to 17-21% and a lot of people just walked away from their homes. I remember driving through Nisku (the industrial park) and seeing guys standing at locked gates wondering where the hell the company they worked for went overnight.

When and if the bust comes again, there will be lots of houses for sale, and those Burger King employees will be taking cut-backs if they want to keep their jobs. According to Figleaf, working for $45,000/year for 50 weeks work is akin to slave labour, so do the math on that same job at $5.65/hour. Let's see.....40 hours a week X 50 weeks X $5.65/hr = $11,300.00/year. For some reason, that doesn't seem to be as much as $45,000.000/year. Maybe I'm using a metric calculator or something. It has happened before and it may happen again. A federal Liberal carbon tax should be quite effective in ensuring that.

Want to see "hard to get work?" If unemployment numbers hit the same levels as the Maritimes, wait an see what the requirements are to do basic accounting for a small company. Can anyone say "degree required?" There won't be a successful job candidate that doesn't have a high school diploma. And that will include the trades.

Grande Prairie has had hard times in the past. So has Ft. Mac. And every other town and city in the province. That recession in particular is what has fueled Alberta's overall hatred of Ottawa. And yes, Figleaf, I know you're about to say the same eastern-centric BS that you always do. Do us all a favor and save it. It just turns into an east vs west slander-fest and it's getting old.

[Hydraboss]

A not go so good piece of news for Alberta?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/business_usa_gas_col

"The supply picture is looking rather negative," King said. "You have to go back to 1984 to see a (similar) downward trend."

Not a big deal really. The market will compensate on it's own. Gas drilling goes down, oil drilling goes up. I was in the field when it was the opposite, and everyone (myself included) thought "OOOhhhhh Nooooooo!" We were all wrong. The patch didn't disintegrate, it just changed.

[geoffrey]

Alberta will be just like Newfoundland when the Cod disappeared.

100 or 150+ years from now should give us plenty of time to diversify. Energy has dropped from the high 30's to the high 20's in share of GDP since the NEP.

[jdobbin]

Not a big deal really. The market will compensate on it's own. Gas drilling goes down, oil drilling goes up. I was in the field when it was the opposite, and everyone (myself included) thought "OOOhhhhh Nooooooo!" We were all wrong. The patch didn't disintegrate, it just changed.

I think it is an overall downturn in the economy that might have a bigger impact. It doesn't have to all be about oil.

[B. Max]

A not go so good piece of news for Alberta?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/business_usa_gas_col

"The supply picture is looking rather negative," King said. "You have to go back to 1984 to see a (similar) downward trend."

Alberta has always had a boom and bust economy. Gas reserves are actually quit high right now. With this shaping up to be a long cold winter that will likely change. On the up stream oil side , the oil companies are putting money into oilsands plants.

[Live From China]

There is one thing that concerns me about all of this. As young people head off to make high wages, many with no skills or training, (some as thick as fence posts!) all of this reinforces the growth of an entire generation with a trumped up sense of its own worth and as materialistic as hell. Many are surrending their youth to get a big truck or car, skidoos, a house, and so on. No longer do I hear young people talking about travelling, climbing mountains, learning to fly, or curing cancer. All I seem to hear is money, money, money, and I see them acting superior. Many are extremely greedy. And many of them are as dull as watching grass grow!

What is even more astounding is when I hear them saying they have trouble "making it" when they can bring in $7000 a month!

I think many will be in for a rude shock when the boom dies and they discover what they are really worth.

[Hydraboss]

Not a big deal really. The market will compensate on it's own. Gas drilling goes down, oil drilling goes up. I was in the field when it was the opposite, and everyone (myself included) thought "OOOhhhhh Nooooooo!" We were all wrong. The patch didn't disintegrate, it just changed.

I think it is an overall downturn in the economy that might have a bigger impact. It doesn't have to all be about oil.

There is one thing that concerns me about all of this. As young people head off to make high wages, many with no skills or training, (some as thick as fence posts!) all of this reinforces the growth of an entire generation with a trumped up sense of its own worth and as materialistic as hell. Many are surrending their youth to get a big truck or car, skidoos, a house, and so on. No longer do I hear young people talking about travelling, climbing mountains, learning to fly, or curing cancer. All I seem to hear is money, money, money, and I see them acting superior. Many are extremely greedy. And many of them are as dull as watching grass grow!

What is even more astounding is when I hear them saying they have trouble "making it" when they can bring in $7000 a month!

I think many will be in for a rude shock when the boom dies and they discover what they are really worth.

jdobbin, you are absolutely right. If the economy as a whole takes a downturn, then all of industry (from the patch to Canadian Tire) will feel it in a big way. I just don't believe that oil alone will completely kill the provincial economy.

LFC, it amazes me as well when I sit and have a drink with wireline engineers (a patch related job) that make upwards of $250k/year and listen to them whine that they might not make the house payment. WTF?

If you have never heard it before, I will recite the Alberta Oilpatch Prayer (relax, you religious types!):

PLEASE GOD, LET IT COME AGAIN. I PROMISE NOT TO PISS IT ALL AWAY THIS TIME.

[fellowtraveller]

Alberta will be just like Newfoundland when the Cod disappeared.

100 or 150+ years from now should give us plenty of time to diversify. Energy has dropped from the high 30's to the high 20's in share of GDP since the NEP.

Alberta already has some significant diversification. Agirculture was #1 in Canada until a few years ago, high tech industry is growing and white collar sector is booming. Forestry is also on the rebound.

[Figleaf]

If Alberta industries can't outbid Newfie welfare benefits, then I think that proves my point about them not being willing to pay competitive wages.

Proves your point??? The fact that Newfies are leaving Newfoundland to seek work disproves your point.

Did you read this thread before commenting? 'Cause the other poster is complaining that there's not enogh Newfies in Alberta.

... poor people (who work for a pittance) are taxed and subsidize non-working rich (who do not work) ...

You mean the idiot-sons of millionaires?

[Figleaf]

Figleaf, you are clueless.

Reported.

[Figleaf]

....

The kids...yes, kids...that I was referring to are grade 12 graduates (sometimes), work lots of hours, get two weeks off a year (paid), full benefits, share options, 4% automatic RRSP contribution (employer funded - not them personally), can put in another 4% if they wish, are supplied with all workwear and safety gear free of charge, get a ride to work if needed, receive training (on-the-job or apprenticeship if they qualify), and get treated like silver (no, not gold).

Working lots of hours is not a privilege. Two weeks holiday is miniscule. The permissiuon to contribute 4% to a plan (esp. when likely you can't afford to) is not a meaningful benefit. And employers supplying safety and work gear should be a requirement.

... the lowest paid ones make around $45,000.00 per year. Did you make that when you graduated high school (assuming you did)? How many people working retail make that much that you personally know?

The point is that its ludicrous for supposely capitalist industries to complain they can't get workers when their solution is obvious to anyone with a shred of understanding of capitalist economics: bid higher.

I'm starting to believe that perhaps the reason you have such a chip on your shoulder about Alberta ...

My point here has nothing to do with it being in Alberta.

do you simply respond with the most inflammatory comments you can muster?

I fail to see what is inflamatory about my comments here. If you become inflamed simply by the opinions of those you differ with, perhaps for your own comfort you should leave the forum.

[Figleaf]

Alberta has always had a boom and bust economy.

"Always"? Alberta has only existed for a little over a hundred years!