ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ

[Black Dog]

omparisons to the Holocaust are fraught with misunderstanding. This article plays into the claim of the "progressive Left" (a card BD has played) that if we stand up to radical Islamists, we are one step away from being Nazis.

BZZZZT!!!! Wrong. Sorry, no big prize for you, but please select from one of these lovely parting gifts.

You were closer to the mark earlier when you said:

...it is foolish to make broad, negative generalizations of millions of people

The author is not talking about "radical Islamists" and I'm not talking about not standing up to the radical Islamists. The authour is talking about Muslims, all 20 million of them, in terms that evoke historical anti-semitic tropes (the Nazi parralels are obvious), while I am counselling against such rhetroic which invariably (and I've seen it on this board) leads to serious discussion of a "final solution" to the Muslim question.

I'll take the risk of a comparison because I think we in the West must find a way to confront this violent medievalism without injuring our liberal beliefs or sensitivities.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. We're on the same page here, no need to paint me as a caricature of a simpering, P.C.., capital-L leftist.

BD, you are implicitly admitting that modern Jewish culture is more worthy than modern Islamic culture since you note that Jews have had a longer exposure than Muslims to Europeans.

And? The difference, though, is that unlike Islamophobes like "Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez," I don't see Islamic culture's widespread inability to adapt to European mores as the result of inherent character flaws, but of actual circumstances.

Nor, I should add, do I see Europe's cultural, scientific and philosophical advances due to some inherent trait: Europe, after all, conquered the world by force of arms, not ideas.

I would dispute that specific claim (Muslims have been in Europe for a millenia) but I'm more surprised that you would suggest that exposure to Europeans implies sophistication.

Why? Compared to the alternatives, it does. And I'm not disputing theat Muslims have had a historical prescence in Europe, but the circumstances are quite different today than they were in, say, the heyday of the Ottoman Empire.

[August1991]

Nor, I should add, do I see Europe's cultural, scientific and philosophical advances due to some inherent trait: Europe, after all, conquered the world by force of arms, not ideas.

I tend to agree with you. I have always considered Europeans to be uncivilized and violent. Their history (even as recent as a decade ago) provides evidence. Europeans either kill each other or stand by, do nothing and watch while other Europeans kill each other.

And I'm not disputing theat Muslims have had a historical prescence in Europe, but the circumstances are quite different today than they were in, say, the heyday of the Ottoman Empire.

Jews adapted to Europe; how well are Muslims adapting?

BD, you are implicitly admitting that modern Jewish culture is more worthy than modern Islamic culture since you note that Jews have had a longer exposure than Muslims to Europeans.

And? The difference, though, is that unlike Islamophobes like "Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez," I don't see Islamic culture's widespread inability to adapt to European mores as the result of inherent character flaws, but of actual circumstances.

If I step back and consider this article, the idea is that Europeans slaughtered sophisticated Jews yet they now welcome backward Muslims. The article is based on irony.

I'll ignore the reference to "European mores" and speak more broadly of civilized, liberal values. I don't know how individuals adapt to them.

I'll add one point. Modern humans are genetically no different from neanderthals alive 100,000 years ago. If it were possible to adopt a neanderthal child, and bring her or him to the present, the child would fit perfectly within any middle class Canadian family today, do well in school and just as likely want a cellphone (if female) or XBox-3 (if male).

[Black Dog]

Jews adapted to Europe; how well are Muslims adapting?

In some places, quite; in others, not very.

[M.Dancer]

1973 - Henry Kissinger -Peace

You have to admit...this one should have an asterisk in the record books....

[jbg]

jbg didn't write this nor did he claim to. He has merely posted a "translated article" by "Sebastian Vilar Rodrige". There is good reason to believe this article is a fraud of some sort.

Many bloggers have attempted to discover the truth.

IMV, the opinion expressed in the article is worth discussion if only because it is all too common in Europe today.

IMHO, even if "Sebastian Vilar Rodrige" were a screen name, such as "JBG" or "August 1991" is, it wouldn't matter. The substance of the post, absent some of the obvious bigotry, is what's important.

The irony is that Europe, in its xenophobia, was quick to eliminate the Jews, even though they've always been slow population growers. Now, they need the labor, and bring in Muslims.

[Rue]

I see nothing wrong, however, in comparing two cultures, one exceedingly successful at everything but reproduction, one successful mainly at reproduction.

There is, of course, a profound difference that renders the comparison invalid. Muslim immigration to Europe has been a reality for less than 100 years. In contrast, the Jews of Europe, until the 1930's, had been ensconced there since medieval times: time to establish enclaves, cement their role in society and grow with Europe. Despite their continued marginalization and oppression they were European. Thus the comparison seems more than a bit skewed.

Absolutely. Its like comparing apples to oranges. Not a fair comaprison at all.

[Rue]

"more along the lines that Europe's collective guilt over the Nazi holocaust has caused Europe to embrace multiculturalism to an absurd degree"

"What's positive that the Muslim immigrant community has brought to Canada? I mean, I know that "stupidity, ignorance, and intolerance" isn't a fair description of the Muslim community as a whole (although it certainly descrivbes an element within that community) but at the same time I'm not sure of anything Muslims have contributed to Canada that shows how "multiculturalism makes us all richer" either.'

Kimmy my take on Europe is that it has never embraced multi-culturalism in spite of the holocaust and precisely for that reason Germany and France felt compelled to pass laws forbidding citizens from denying the holocaust. But I would agree in many countries its attempts to be multi-cultural have in fact created reverse racism and bred intolerance. I am thinking specifically of certain laws in Austria as I say that designed to accommoodate Muslims in public swimming pools that allow them only to swim with each other, but are creating a back-lash.

However I also think Europe (if I must generalize for the sake of discussion) has never come to grips yet with its inherent racist nature from its colonial days. I think today racism is still wide spread in France and in most European countries when it comes to Turks and Muslims and gypsies and Africans. I am of course generalizing for the sake of discussion but I base my comments on analyzing the number of race based crimes or acts reported and recorded by groups like amnesty and Human Righs Watch, etc.

I think Europeans always have been and always will be distrustful of non Europeans and in particular people not native to their particualr countries.

In Holland for example, The Dutch would be the first to admit their experience with Molluccans has been problematic from the get go and race riots in France are a self-explanatory phenomena. And please do not get me wrong. if I have to generalize I would say the Dutch are as cool and liberal as you get. Its not meant to slur anyone. Its based onw hat I saw and what they told me in my travels.

Now the next issue you bring up whether it be in Canada or Europe is of course the issue as to whether immigrants bring intolerance on themselves by refusing to assimilate.

That is of course the age old debate of multi-culturalism. If one chooses to come to Europe or Canada but retain their culture, do they risk alienating themselves from the mainstream and is it possible to retain one's culture but not be alienated by the mainstream.

I personally think that while in Europe there is inherent racism carried over from their colonial days, I personally think in Canada, the multi-culturalism we see yes is partially as a result of the anti-semitic policies of McKenzie King but also very much a unique Canadian phenomena that came about in the Trudea era as a method to negate seperatism and also eveolved from the fact that Canada has always been reluctant to be a melting pot and define a common vision to buy into.

To this day there is a reluctance to be Canadian first and thus all the hyphenated Canadians, dual citizens and demands by so many interest groups to be treated as "equals". The demand for equality to me is another way of demanding one need not assimilate and still be able to retain certain values.

All of the above is my personal subjective opinion not based on objective data. I admit that.

For me I think Canada and all Canadians have to get to the point where we realize we have to put Canada first and what-ever else we are second for Canada to continue to function. There is a balance between intolerance and multi-culturalism.

Now when we get into discussions about Muslims I personally do not like to generalize all Muslims. I think we forget Muslims like all other visible minoroty groups have a wide range of cutlural, religious and political views. I think we have a tendency to assume most Muslims are fundamentalist in religious belief and do not want to assimilate and are hostile to Canadian values.

I don't assume that the same reason I detest it when certain pin heads write into this forum and make racial slurs about Jews or make generalizations about gays or anyone else.

However I think you have the right to criticize me as a Jew, or someone else as a Muslim or what-ever, if we allow such values to compromise the general well being, safety and sovereignty of Canada. if I say to you I am a Jewish Canadian but I will side with Israel before Canada, then you in my opinion have the right to criticize that and say -you can't have your cake and eat it to. At least that is what I think and I would go so far as to say I think most Jews and Muslims and new Canadians would agree.

Here is the next point. I don't care whose religion it is or what religion it is, I would say, if you want to enjoy the rights of Canadian citizenship then you must understand one thing is NOT subject to compromise and that is when you practice your religion in Canada, it must be done with the full respect and tolerance of other religious beliefs and so we all must practice the Golden Rule and understand in public places, schools, we treat each other with respect and do not take sides.

So to me at Christmas time that means, if a Christian wants to celebrate Christmas I smile and welcome it and I do not take it personally as offensive just because I am Jewish. That is b.s. am I that insecure I need to demand Christians stop smiling as well? On the other hand if someone in the name of Christianity said only Christmas can be celebrated, then I would have a problem and say to them, hey that is going to far. In my life I never had a Christian tell me not to celebrate Hanukah because they found it offensive. If I did get into a discussion with a Christian who told me I am going to hell unless I convert and repent, I would politely move along. That is what one does in a democracy where I am guaranteed to walk the street and enjoy the same rights as that Christian who may feel I am damned.

What I see today are being being intolerance in the name of tolerance!

That is why I criticize people who in the name of religion want law legislated to discriminate against people who do not have the same religious views.

On the otjher hand, me personally I say to fundamentalists of all religions, your values are a private matter for you inside your houses of worship. I won't come in their and tell you hwo to pray, but don't cme outside and expect the law to allow you to impose your views on me.

Now when a Muslim women says to me she wants to remain 100% covered from head to toe I put it this way-I say-that is fine, but if you want a driver's license taken show your face or you don't get a license. You can't have it both ways. If for security reasons your face needs to be visible then flex your values or learn to walk away and not have your cake and eat it to.

I say to fundamentalists of any religion, you don't want to marry gays or enagge in certain religious beliefs about marriage that's fine, that is your business, but understand there are still laws that supercede yours by the state governing marriage that you can't opt out of or violate.

So I say to a Catholic who finds it impossible to reconcile gay marriage-don't--that is your personal religion it is not the state's concern. However go the next step and ask the State to impose your beliefs on gays ouside your church, then I have a problem. An dI ay to Gays, if you go inside the church and are not accepted, that is a private matter between you and your church the state can not get involved in. However outside the church, your right to be married civilly is of course a different issue. And I also say, start your own church too or fight inside the church but understand when the state intervenes and when it does not.

I say to Muslims or Jews who want to follow their religious laws as to marriage and divorce, fine, but if you violate Canadian divorce laws or marriage laws, then they are not enforceable or recognized by the state. Canada is not a menu of convenience where you only select the things you like and break the remainder of the laws you don't like.

I personally like to think of myself as a Liberal in a cultural sense, but I fail to see why even as a cultural Liberal I should not expect to have to be willing to honour and conform to Canadian law and certain Canadian values.

For me Christmas may be Christian for Christians, but it also gives me an opportunity to enjoy a holiday with Christians that makes them feel good and I get days off as well. I don't see how sucha duality is problematic.

I do question on the other-hand why people feel they can have divided loyalty over certain things. I would say to stephane Dion for example, no stephane it is b.s. for you to accept election to an elected office and tell people you see nothing wrong with having dual citizenship. That is pure b.s. Either you swear an allegiance just to Canada, or don't run for office until you do.

This is b.s. to say, I only give up my French citizenship if I am elected. That is crass opportunism and shows everything wrong in my opinion with dual citizenship.

Think about it. France disagrees with Canada on where to place its soldiers in Afghanistan. As a result it can be argued Canadian soldiers die, because French foreign policy assures that French soldiers do not share the same liability exposure thereby placing more death exposure on Canadian soldiers. That is not just the appearance of a conflict of interest, it is a real conflict of interest.

To me in civil or private law, just the appearance of conflict of interest has to be prevented and yet with citizenship we think nothing wrong with conflict of interest.

Sorry I don't buy it. Its precisely why I say, I may be a supporter of Israel's right to exist and it may have special meaning to me as a Jew, but I am a Canadian first and foremost and if I can not put Canada first, then I have to become an Israeli citizen.

I can but will not have dual Israeli Canadian citizenship because I personally do not think you can be both. To me its like being a little but pregnant or trying to be both genders at once.

I know with today's technology its possible to be both genders at once but I also know you either pee one way or the other and on certain basic things you can't have it both ways.

Excuse the pun but I don't see it as being penalized for putting Canada first.

[Higgly]

JBG he didn't put the three letters and hyphen before the word because in my opinion he would prefer to use code words. What do you expect. Laugh it off. We know what is behind the sentiment. Don't know about you, but if there is one thing I have learned, there are always going to be certain people who are cowards and hide behind words....

What can I say? I cite tenured Jewish Israeli historians who footnote damned near every sentence, and I still get this crap.

[Higgly]

I will admit that Europe was about as open to integrating Muslims as it was to integrating Jews, i.e. not very.

OK. This is what I do not get. You talk about 'Moslems' as a homogeneous group. Do you also equate Falwell with Robertson with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope? Just really weird, IMHO.

[Higgly]

Indeed. Muslims have brought us stupidity, ignorance, intolerance... and shawarma.

I jest.

Nobody makes a statement like that in jest, Kimmy. This post does not do you credit.

[August1991]

Rue, that was a thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading. One reason I continue to participate on this forum is that occasionally I get the chance to read a post such as yours.

[jbg]

Rue, that was a thoughtful post that I enjoyed reading. One reason I continue to participate on this forum is that occasionally I get the chance to read a post such as yours.

I second that.

[Higgly]

O brother.

[Higgly]

"more along the lines that Europe's collective guilt over the Nazi holocaust has caused Europe to embrace multiculturalism to an absurd degree"

Certainly an important lesson for the French.

Kimmy my take on Europe is that it has never embraced multi-culturalism ...

You know, Rue. There is a whole bunch of dead Frenchmen in the cemeteries of Paris who'd like to have lunch with you.

in spite of the holocaust and precisely for that reason Germany and France felt compelled to pass laws forbidding citizens from denying the holocaust.

The poor buggers. They are damned if they do, and they are damned if they don't. Rue, have you ever been anyone's girlfriend?

However I also think Europe (if I must generalize for the sake of discussion)

Do you must? What would be your response if we were to generalize to all Jews, 'for the sake of discussion'.

Rue, you are a bigot.

I think today racism is still wide spread in France and in most European countries when it comes to Turks and Muslims and gypsies and Africans. I am of course generalizing for the sake of discussion...

And of course Rue, we always understand. Can we generalize in our comments about Jews too?

but I base my comments on analyzing the number of race based crimes or acts reported and recorded by groups like amnesty and Human Righs Watch, etc.

Can you list these, please?

I think Europeans always have been and always will be distrustful of non Europeans and in particular people not native to their particualr countries.

No kidding. I've been there a lot and I have aways felt welcome. Especially by the French and Belgians. Maybe because I speak French. Do you speak French, Rue? Have you ever been to France, Rue?

In Holland for example, The Dutch would be the first to admit their experience with Molluccans has been problematic from the get go and race riots in France are a self-explanatory phenomena. And please do not get me wrong. if I have to generalize I would say the Dutch are as cool and liberal as you get. Its not meant to slur anyone. Its based onw hat I saw and what they told me in my travels.

Well you know, that's real amazing Rue, because the Dutch surrendered so completely to the Nazis that it took less than a thousand Nazis to administer the entire country. The Dutch contributed considerably to the death and slave camps of Nazi Germany, and the Dutch police helped.

Now the next issue you bring up whether it be in Canada or Europe is of course the issue as to whether immigrants bring intolerance on themselves by refusing to assimilate.

That is of course the age old debate of multi-culturalism. If one chooses to come to Europe or Canada but retain their culture, do they risk alienating themselves from the mainstream and is it possible to retain one's culture but not be alienated by the mainstream.

I personally think that while in Europe there is inherent racism carried over from their colonial days, I personally think in Canada, the multi-culturalism we see yes is partially as a result of the anti-semitic policies of McKenzie King but also very much a unique Canadian phenomena that came about in the Trudea era as a method to negate seperatism and also eveolved from the fact that Canada has always been reluctant to be a melting pot and define a common vision to buy into.

Rue, I am speechless. You have just negated every immigrant wave that has arrived on our shores in the last 100 years, most of them fleeing dreadful, starving circumstances: the Irish, the Germans, the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Philippinos, the Indians, the Pakistanis, the Chinese (!), the Koreans. Rue, I am not sure that I can speak the words that describe how I feel for you at this particular moment, but be very sure, they are not good words, Rue. You are not a good person.

To this day there is a reluctance to be Canadian first and thus all the hyphenated Canadians,

...dual citizens and demands by so many interest groups to be treated as "equals". The demand for equality to me is another way of demanding one need not assimilate and still be able to retain certain values.

Really Rue? Can you say Yom Kippur? How about Diwali? Gong hey fat choi?.... I have other words for you Rue...

However I think you have the right to criticize me as a Jew...

Funny you should say that Rue, because I haven't seen anyone here criticize you as a Jew,

but I will side with Israel before Canada

Rue, you are finished here. Say your good-byes. There are forums for Israeli citizens. I suggest you find a home there. If you are having trouble seeing yourself as a Canadian, then I am not sure any of us can help you.

[jbg]

in spite of the holocaust and precisely for that reason Germany and France felt compelled to pass laws forbidding citizens from denying the holocaust.

[/quote }

Maybe changing the "}" to "]" would at least make your post look good, even if it doesn't change the vile contents.

[jbg]

PART I -

"more along the lines that Europe's collective guilt over the Nazi holocaust has caused Europe to embrace multiculturalism to an absurd degree"

Certainly an important lesson for the French.

Probably, to be fair to both of you, multiculturalism was an effort to make a virtue out of a necessity, i.e. to get manual labor for Europe. But the post I'm responding to deteriorates sharply from here.

"What's positive that the Muslim immigrant community has brought to Canada? I mean, I know that "stupidity, ignorance, and intolerance" isn't a fair description of the Muslim community as a whole (although it certainly descrivbes an element within that community) but at the same time I'm not sure of anything Muslims have contributed to Canada that shows how "multiculturalism makes us all richer" either.'

O man. From the mouth of Goebbels to my ears.

A walking illustration of Godwin's Law (link), except particularly horrid when used against a Jew.

Kimmy my take on Europe is that it has never embraced multi-culturalism ...

You know, Rue. There is a whole bunch of dead Frenchmen in the cemeteries of Paris who'd like to have lunch with you.

I don't understand that pointless remark, unless you mean the Frenchmen killed in Muslim riots last fall. I also think "multiculturalism" is an elite fantasy, having little real-world support among real voting citizens. This is imposed by a "father knows best" kind of government. Left to their own devices, people want to live and work with those who share their values, not those that want them dead.

in spite of the holocaust and precisely for that reason Germany and France felt compelled to pass laws forbidding citizens from denying the holocaust.

The poor buggers. They are damned if they do, and they are damned if they don't. Rue, have you ever been anyone's girlfriend?

The point is that these countries are unwilling to trust the marketplace of ideas to shoot down stupid ones like Nazism. And what does Rue's having a girlfriend or boyfriend have anything to do with this thread?

However I also think Europe (if I must generalize for the sake of discussion)

Do you must? What would be your response if we were to generalize to all Jews, 'for the sake of discussion'.

Rue, you are a bigot.

You cut his statement to ribbons, taking it out of context. However, Europe is geographically small, and shares some characteristics, such as mercantalism (now dressed up as "socialism" and top-down governments. You know, the same way people talk about Canada and the US in the same breath.

has never come to grips yet with its inherent racist nature from its colonial days.

Oh I know, the Americans are nothing compared to the Belgians in the Congo. And the Dutch in the spice islands... And then there is that Humphrey Bogart movie..... Don't get me started.

You'r mocking good points. The US has never been close to as brutal as the ones used in your example; which is why they're not succeeding as colonial masters in Iraq.

Part 2 to follow.

[jbg]

Part 2

I think today racism is still wide spread in France and in most European countries when it comes to Turks and Muslims and gypsies and Africans. I am of course generalizing for the sake of discussion...

And of course Rue, we always understand. Can we generalize in our comments about Jews too?

Sure, if you want to say that Jews generally celebrate certain holidays. I doubt your intent is so friendly.

but I base my comments on analyzing the number of race based crimes or acts reported and recorded by groups like amnesty and Human Righs Watch, etc.

Can you list these, please?

The fact is that there are constant wars going on in the Muslim ummah. To answer your question, Exhibit "A" is the slaughter by the Janjaweed of Sudan of Africans (in this case Muslim as well) living in the Dharfur region.

I think Europeans always have been and always will be distrustful of non Europeans and in particular people not native to their particualr countries.

No kidding. I've been there a lot and I have aways felt welcome. Especially by the French and Belgians. Maybe because I speak French. Do you speak French, Rue? Have you ever been to France, Rue?

I speak mostly English, some Spanish, and I do not act in a snobby or obnoxious manner to Chinese or French-speaking tourists or immigrants. Apparently, you think it's quite alright.

In Holland for example, The Dutch would be the first to admit their experience with Molluccans has been problematic from the get go and race riots in France are a self-explanatory phenomena. And please do not get me wrong. if I have to generalize I would say the Dutch are as cool and liberal as you get. Its not meant to slur anyone. Its based onw hat I saw and what they told me in my travels.

Well you know, that's real amazing Rue, because the Dutch surrendered so completely to the Nazis that it took less than a thousand Nazis to administer the entire country. The Dutch contributed considerably to the death and slave camps of Nazi Germany, and the Dutch police helped.

No dispute there. Maybe you can say something intelligent now and then.

Now the next issue you bring up whether it be in Canada or Europe is of course the issue as to whether immigrants bring intolerance on themselves by refusing to assimilate.

That is of course the age old debate of multi-culturalism. If one chooses to come to Europe or Canada but retain their culture, do they risk alienating themselves from the mainstream and is it possible to retain one's culture but not be alienated by the mainstream.

I personally think that while in Europe there is inherent racism carried over from their colonial days, I personally think in Canada, the multi-culturalism we see yes is partially as a result of the anti-semitic policies of McKenzie King but also very much a unique Canadian phenomena that came about in the Trudea era as a method to negate seperatism and also eveolved from the fact that Canada has always been reluctant to be a melting pot and define a common vision to buy into.

Rue, I am speechless. You have just negated every immigrant wave that has arrived on our shores in the last 100 years, most of them fleeing dreadful, starving circumstances: the Irish, the Germans, the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Philippinos, the Indians, the Pakistanis, the Chinese (!), the Koreans. Rue, I am not sure that I can speak the words that describe how I feel for you at this particular moment, but be very sure, they are not good words, Rue. You are not a good person.

How about, in your haste to denigrate Rue, acknowledging that, in general, the Ukrainians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Philippinos, and the Chinese have become integrated Canadians, contributing to the country. Not sure about the Indians. Most "Ukrainians" think of themselves as "Canadians". And what do you have against Rue anyway? He seems like a mild-mannered poster. I think I understand why you don't like him. Probably a lot like why you don't like me, or for that matter Winnipeg's or Edmonton's mayor.

Part 3 to follow (maybe, if I can stay awake)

[jbg]

Part 3

To this day there is a reluctance to be Canadian first and thus all the hyphenated Canadians,

...dual citizens and demands by so many interest groups to be treated as "equals". The demand for equality to me is another way of demanding one need not assimilate and still be able to retain certain values.

Really Rue? Can you say Yom Kippur? How about Diwali? Gong hey fat choi?.... I have other words for you Rue...

I know you are probably not bright enough to understand the difference between Yom Kippur observance and demanding implementation, through the courts, of Sharia law, but there is one. Yom Kippur observance is totallywithin the scope of desirable American or Canadian citizenship. Asking the Courts to maintain the degraded status of Muslim women, or the right to behead "apostates" in Canada is not. Also, there is a difference between Yom Kippur, Diwali, and Gong hey fat choi on one hand, and purchasing tons of fertilizert to explode in downtown Toronto on the other.

All of the above is my personal subjective opinion not based on objective data. I admit that.

Well, bully for you.

A bit schoolyard here?

For me I think Canada and all Canadians have to get to the point where we realize we have to put Canada first and what-ever else we are second for Canada to continue to function. There is a balance between intolerance and multi-culturalism.

So, what do you think about Shin Beit's illegal use of Canadian passports, Rue?

You and I know that intelligence agencies cooperate all the time, especially those of allies such as Canada and Israel. True, Chretien had to appear angered, but the fact is, I'm sure, that floating around intelligence agencies of democracies are plenty of false governmental documents from whatever countries' paperwork serves the need. CSIS isn't going to explain itself to you.

However I think you have the right to criticize me as a Jew...

Funny you should say that Rue, because I haven't seen anyone here criticize you as a Jew,

Except you, in coded language.

but I will side with Israel before Canada

Rue, you are finished here. Say your good-byes. There are forums for Israeli citizens. I suggest you find a home there. If you are having trouble seeing yourself as a Canadian, then I am not sure any of us can help you.

You took the sentence out of context, and know d@mned well you did.

Here is the next point. I don't care whose religion it is or what religion it is,

It doesn't matter, Rue. You are finished. Hoisted on your own petard. Good luck in Jaffa.

Just because you are a left-winger does not make you qualified to judge that someone slightly more conservative than you is a traitor. Why don't you move to Havana or Pyong-yang or some country that meets your needs a bit better?

[Frenchy Habash]

This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot:

Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance,

I'm reporting it.

Thank you very much.

[Frenchy Habash]

So, what do you think about Shin Beit's illegal use of Canadian passports, Rue?

You and I know that intelligence agencies cooperate all the time, especially those of allies such as Canada and Israel. True, Chretien had to appear angered, but the fact is, I'm sure, that floating around intelligence agencies of democracies are plenty of false governmental documents from whatever countries' paperwork serves the need. CSIS isn't going to explain itself to you.

I am going to match your 'I am sure' with my 'I am certain' and tell you that if these guys had been caught in some illegal action (and why else would they use someone else's passport?), it would have all come back to Canada, and that is, after all, what they were there for, is it not?

In reviewing the comments by posters who say they are more loyal to Israel than to Canada, I have to look at this incident and ask them: do you think these Israeli terrorists should be able to hide Israel's guilt behind a Canadian passport? And if the answer is yes, then I have to ask, how stupid do you really think we are here?

[jbg]

So, what do you think about Shin Beit's illegal use of Canadian passports, Rue?

You and I know that intelligence agencies cooperate all the time, especially those of allies such as Canada and Israel. True, Chretien had to appear angered, but the fact is, I'm sure, that floating around intelligence agencies of democracies are plenty of false governmental documents from whatever countries' paperwork serves the need. CSIS isn't going to explain itself to you.

I am going to match your 'I am sure' with my 'I am certain' and tell you that if these guys had been caught in some illegal action (and why else would they use someone else's passport?), it would have all come back to Canada, and that is, after all, what they were there for, is it not?

In reviewing the comments by posters who say they are more loyal to Israel than to Canada, I have to look at this incident and ask them: do you think these Israeli terrorists should be able to hide Israel's guilt behind a Canadian passport? And if the answer is yes, then I have to ask, how stupid do you really think we are here?

I am taking you at your word that you are not asking a deliberately rhetorical or dumb question. Israel is a recognized democracy. Many Arab countries, i.e. its enemies, do not recognize it. Thus, a falsified (or accurate) Israeli passport does not give Mossad agents access to those countries.

Canada, along with other democracies, provides its allies, including Israel, with necessary false documents to sidestep these obstacles, and to ensure Israel's safety.

What is there that you do not understand?