David Wilkins thinks Arar is still a threat

[margrace]

Exactly

[jbg]

The US said that Arar was dangerous because of the info they got from either RCMP or CSIS, so why haven't we heard what their reasons for making him a terrorist? Arar was living here in Canada and when ask to be sent back to Canada the US said no and shipped him to Syria knowing for well what would happen to all they sent there. We all know why Wilkins is saying what he's saying, the lawsuit that Arar has against the US govt.

1. Canada made that decision, not the US; and
   
2. Do you really expect the RCMP, CSIS or for that matter US CIA to publish, to your liking, their secret intelligence? Should they name their sources too?
   

[Fortunata]

2. Do you really expect the RCMP, CSIS or for that matter US CIA to publish, to your liking, their secret intelligence? Should they name their sources too?

Not publically declare their intelligence but it would be nice, given their rhetoric over information sharing, if they shared with our (un)intelligence services what they have that we don't have that keeps Arar on the terrorist list.

By all that has been said and done, it must be more than the rumour and innuendo we tossed over. If there is more to it that truly points Arar out as a terrorist then we should be apprised since it could compromise our national security. Isn't that what all this "sharing" is supposed to be for?

[jbg]

Not publically declare their intelligence but it would be nice, given their rhetoric over information sharing, if they shared with our (un)intelligence services what they have that we don't have that keeps Arar on the terrorist list.

By all that has been said and done, it must be more than the rumour and innuendo we tossed over. If there is more to it that truly points Arar out as a terrorist then we should be apprised since it could compromise our national security. Isn't that what all this "sharing" is supposed to be for?

I'm not intelligent enough to work my way through your last post. Can you try simpler sentence structure?

[guyser]

Publically we have no right to know what the US has on Arar. That is their decision so be it .

What I cannot get around my head is why not have high level talks (assuming they haven't) and discuss the intel of each country. Both countries are implicated in this fiasco. I cannot help but think, should the shoe be on the other foot, the US would be mighty PO'd at Canada for not telling them something they did not know.

The US govt , as you know jbg, is pushing for a security perimeter around North America. Witholding this info on Arar can only tighten our feelings that we should not enter into that agreement. We are all aware of the blame we wrongly suffered after 9-11 by politicos of both stripes saying "these terrorist entered from Canada". So now we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Is that not a valid statement?

I suspect, and it is my opinion only, that high level talks have been held, and the CDN authorities are satisfied that they have done the right thing, but respect US soveriegnty and have kept their mouth shut.

[jbg]

I suspect, and it is my opinion only, that high level talks have been held, and the CDN authorities are satisfied that they have done the right thing, but respect US soveriegnty and have kept their mouth shut.

What if the source of the intelligence was, say, a Muslim mole or informant who has access to mosques? What would be his life expectancy (or future productivity as a source) if "outed"?

[guyser]

jbg,

I am not sure that would matter either way. He is known to US authorities, is there not enough trust to tell CDN authorities? If the CIA knows, what can be the harm if CSIS knows?

I am not calling for any such "outing" in public in any way shape or form.We all need our sources and would be shooting ourselves (CDN/US) in the foot to out any informant.

[jbg]

jbg,

I am not sure that would matter either way. He is known to US authorities, is there not enough trust to tell CDN authorities? If the CIA knows, what can be the harm if CSIS knows?

I am not calling for any such "outing" in public in any way shape or form.We all need our sources and would be shooting ourselves (CDN/US) in the foot to out any informant.

I would assume, in the real world, CDN authorities were told.

[Fortunata]

Not publically declare their intelligence but it would be nice, given their rhetoric over information sharing, if they shared with our (un)intelligence services what they have that we don't have that keeps Arar on the terrorist list.

By all that has been said and done, it must be more than the rumour and innuendo we tossed over. If there is more to it that truly points Arar out as a terrorist then we should be apprised since it could compromise our national security. Isn't that what all this "sharing" is supposed to be for?

I'm not intelligent enough to work my way through your last post. Can you try simpler sentence structure?

I'm going to type real slow so you get it jbg - if the US has more information than what Canada gave them it would be prudent of them to share with us - especially if that "real" information says Arar could pose a threat to our or your national security. That's what information sharing is there for - protection for all.

It's my feeling the USA has nothing more than what we gave them, which proved to be false. Governments have a real hard time saying they may have been wrong.

[jbg]

I'm going to type real slow so you get it jbg -

Why don't you cut this personal attack BS, unless, as I suspect, you're carrying over unfinished business from another board.

if the US has more information than what Canada gave them it would be prudent of them to share with us - especially if that "real" information says Arar could pose a threat to our or your national security. That's what information sharing is there for - protection for all.

It's my feeling the USA has nothing more than what we gave them, which proved to be false. Governments have a real hard time saying they may have been wrong.

Should the US share it with CSIS, or on www.mapleleafweb.com/forums?

[Technocrat]

I'm going to type real slow so you get it jbg -

Why don't you cut this personal attack BS, unless, as I suspect, you're carrying over unfinished business from another board.

if the US has more information than what Canada gave them it would be prudent of them to share with us - especially if that "real" information says Arar could pose a threat to our or your national security. That's what information sharing is there for - protection for all.

It's my feeling the USA has nothing more than what we gave them, which proved to be false. Governments have a real hard time saying they may have been wrong.

Should the US share it with CSIS, or on www.mapleleafweb.com/forums?

JBG i just read through this whole thread and you seem to be diliberately misconstruing (sp? forgive me its past midnight and im typing in bed) Fortuna's words and posts.

Fortuna has a valid point.

If Arar is a terrorist and the pertinent information is not shared with the Canadian authorities, then the US inteligence services are endangering my life and the lives of my loved ones. Yeah its a little extreme however it is the logical conclusioin if Arar is who the US intel says he is.

[jbg]

If Arar is a terrorist and the pertinent information is not shared with the Canadian authorities, then the US inteligence services are endangering my life and the lives of my loved ones. Yeah its a little extreme however it is the logical conclusioin if Arar is who the US intel says he is.

My point is that I highly doubt that CSIS shares all it's told, sarcasm and hyperbole aside.

[daniel]

He's not only a Canadian, he's a Syrian too. The US is in their full right to deport people to their country of origin. Renounce your citizenship, no matter how difficult, if that's the issue at hand.

The guy was a refugee to Canada, yet has not claimed to have ever tried to renounce his Syrian citizenship.

So I have little sympathy, your either a Canadian or your aren't... this dual citizenship crap is just causing too much grief.

Gonzales never attempted to mentioned this when questioned by Lehey. If this were true, surely Gonzales would be defending their decisions using this kind of argument as evidence.

The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

[jbg]

The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

What Section, Article, Clause or Amendment of the Constitution has Bush violated? I've read our Constitution, as well as your Charter of Wrongs and No Rights. Have you?

[newbie]

The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

What Section, Article, Clause or Amendment of the Constitution has Bush violated? I've read our Constitution, as well as your Charter of Wrongs and No Rights. Have you?

It's called Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I resent your bashing of our country. And you're a lawyer? You should know better.

[jbg]

What Section, Article, Clause or Amendment of the Constitution has Bush violated? I've read our Constitution, as well as your Charter of Wrongs and No Rights. Have you?

It's called Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I resent your bashing of our country. And you're a lawyer? You should know better.

Technically, Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The protections are about as solid as swiss cheese. Thank G-d for the strength of traditions. If the wording of the Charter were the best you had, you would not be a free country.

Adn you still haven't answered my question. Have you read our Constitution?

[newbie]

Adn you still haven't answered my question. Have you read our Constitution?

I don't think this applies to me. But I don't have to read it to not bash it.

[jbg]

Adn you still haven't answered my question. Have you read our Constitution?

I don't think this applies to me. But I don't have to read it to not bash it.

After reading the sequence, I see that it doesn't.

My concern on the Charter is that it could be read as lowering or restricting the level of rights that derived from British common law. The freedoms are "subject to" restrictions appropriate in a "democratic society". That could be read as any restrictions that Parliament, or in practice the PMO, deems appropriate.

I shouldn't have name-called with respect to the Charter. That being said, I find that, at least as written, the Charter's approach to rights, and to language and multiculturalism issues leaves a lot to be desired. For all I know, it works better in practice than in theory as Harper famously described with respect to Canada as a country.

[Wilber]

Let's not forget the $millions it cost the Canadian taxpayers to pull quasi-Canadian/Lebanese bacon from the fire when war broke out in Lebanon. All these so-called Canadians who held Canadian citizenship as a convenience, but do not pay taxes in this country, suddenly started complaining about the last of quick evacuation from a country they were not only born in, but permanently reside in. Over 7000 of those we paid to evacuate have now returned to Lebanon.

OK. So what does it mean to be a Canadian citizen? Once you get that Canadian passport, there is no going back, AFAIC.

He's not only a Canadian, he's a Syrian too. The US is in their full right to deport people to their country of origin. Renounce your citizenship, no matter how difficult, if that's the issue at hand.

The guy was a refugee to Canada, yet has not claimed to have ever tried to renounce his Syrian citizenship.

So I have little sympathy, your either a Canadian or your aren't... this dual citizenship crap is just causing too much grief.

Exactly, Canada gave him citizenship and has to treat him as such. As long as he maintained his Syrian citizenship the US had every right to treat him as one. They have no special obligation to Canadian citizens who maintain dual citizenship unless it is American.

[mcqueen625]

WE are all citizens of the world. Borders are for politicians, the people should be free. This earth shall never know peace as long as governments are able to tell the people what to do. War will rage until the people are empowered to prevent it.

Here comes another nut-case wanting the world to have one government or that's what he seems to imply about not having borders between countries. That is what is wrong with Canada, we seem to have very porous borders where anyone can enter as long as they are willing to say they are abused in their own country, yet these same people refuse to renounced the citizenship of teh country that supposedly abused them, IE; Arar, Kadhr and I'm willing to bet all of those and their families who were arrested in Toronto planning terrorist attacks. Give me a break! You either want to be Canadian or you don't, and if you don't, please go the hell back where you came from.

[daniel]

The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

What Section, Article, Clause or Amendment of the Constitution has Bush violated? I've read our Constitution, as well as your Charter of Wrongs and No Rights. Have you?

This is exactly the kind of discussion that will surely arise if Arar were permitted back in, so the Bush Government would rather avoid the whole thing by keeping Arar on the watch list.

[jbg]

The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

What Section, Article, Clause or Amendment of the Constitution has Bush violated? I've read our Constitution, as well as your Charter of Wrongs and No Rights. Have you?

This is exactly the kind of discussion that will surely arise if Arar were permitted back in, so the Bush Government would rather avoid the whole thing by keeping Arar on the watch list.

You're telling me that Arer is a major factor in Bush's ability to hold office? You have to be kidding.

[daniel]

The reason now is totally political. If Arar were to arrive in the United States, he would be recognized by the media and all of Bush's opponents as a symbol representing the worst mistakes of Bush's uncostitutional policies.

What Section, Article, Clause or Amendment of the Constitution has Bush violated? I've read our Constitution, as well as your Charter of Wrongs and No Rights. Have you?

This is exactly the kind of discussion that will surely arise if Arar were permitted back in, so the Bush Government would rather avoid the whole thing by keeping Arar on the watch list.

You're telling me that Arer is a major factor in Bush's ability to hold office? You have to be kidding.

Who said anything about "Bush's ability to hold office?" Not me. We are discussing why Arar is still on the watch list. The intelligence that the RCMP gave to the US was faulty. As faulty as the evidence that lead to the invasion of Iraq. Again, Arar would represent all that was faulty of the Bush government policy since 911. So the easy way to avoid it is simply to keep Arar out of the country.

You can also say "You have got to be kidding" if the US government tried to deport a musician but nevertheless, Richard Nixon tried it on John Lennon.

[jbg]

You can also say "You have got to be kidding" if the US government tried to deport a musician but nevertheless, Richard Nixon tried it on John Lennon.

Nixon was one vile human being. Think what you want about Bush, Nixon was far, far worse. The US must have its own intelligence. Granted, Stock Day doesn't read it the same way, but we're very much a sovereign country.

[Wilber]

Who said anything about "Bush's ability to hold office?" Not me. We are discussing why Arar is still on the watch list. The intelligence that the RCMP gave to the US was faulty. As faulty as the evidence that lead to the invasion of Iraq. Again, Arar would represent all that was faulty of the Bush government policy since 911. So the easy way to avoid it is simply to keep Arar out of the country.

You can also say "You have got to be kidding" if the US government tried to deport a musician but nevertheless, Richard Nixon tried it on John Lennon.

So what, do you think that Canada should have to give a reason acceptable to to the US for not letting a US citizen into Canada?