Israel and/or the US is Supposed to Negotiate With This?

[Higgly]

So JBG, how many people were murdered in the US last year by people wielding guns?

[cybercoma]

I do not find arguments about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin amusing, productive or helpful. You understand, I trust, the point of this thread, which is that the Arab/Muslim culture holds little value for life, their own or certainly ours. They give us no cause to fight them with both hands tied behind our back.

Given their primitive nature, their only hope for defeating us is in the front pages of the New York Times or Toronto Star.

The "Us" or them analysis is not amusing, but it can certainly be productive and helpful. These religious labels and traditions of given them to children before they're capable of understanding these beliefs are creating a world that is violent and segregated.

"Us" and "Them" in your context is all people who embrace religious labels and are willing to kill and die for their book of choice.

The only "Us and them" there should be are the "Us" being people who have grown-up from believing in nonsense and being labelled as part of horribly oppressive religious institutions (ALL OF THEM, not just Islam, but also Judaism, Christianity and the rest) and "them" being those who are willing to murder and/or die for fiction.

[jbg]

So JBG, how many people were murdered in the US last year by people wielding guns?

"Us" and "Them" in your context is all people who embrace religious labels and are willing to kill and die for their book of choice.

The only "Us and them" there should be are the "Us" being people who have grown-up from believing in nonsense and being labelled as part of horribly oppressive religious institutions (ALL OF THEM, not just Islam, but also Judaism, Christianity and the rest) and "them" being those who are willing to murder and/or die for fiction.

To my knowledge, Christians and Jews did not fly planes into Muslim buildings in order to incinerate Muslims at random. When I read about decent people, firefighters, who left behind families rushing into the buildings, and compare them with this silliness that tries to equate Islam and Christianity (note, I am not Christian) I get positively nauseous (sp).

[Higgly]

Ok JBG. Let's consider that Smith and Wesson, and the rest of the gun industry, is a culture, as might be defined by Churleton Heston.....

[jbg]

Ok JBG. Let's consider that Smith and Wesson, and the rest of the gun industry, is a culture, as might be defined by Churleton Heston.....

I hardly think Charleton Heston (you should learn to spell along the way) defines anything. He was head of a lobbying group, the American Rifle Association. He has an opinion. Other Americans have different opinions.

[Higgly]

The mis-spelling was intentional.

[cybercoma]

To my knowledge, Christians and Jews did not fly planes into Muslim buildings in order to incinerate Muslims at random. When I read about decent people, firefighters, who left behind families rushing into the buildings, and compare them with this silliness that tries to equate Islam and Christianity (note, I am not Christian) I get positively nauseous (sp).

Consider the label GONE. You would not be able to say MUSLIMS flew planes into CHRISTIAN buildings. The identifiable groups would be gone and the hatred would have to be based on something else. Something that children are not being forced into before they're even at an age of rational thinking. Do you think the battle would have as much affect on people if it were a race war, or a simply geographical one?

Hell, would we even get to the war part, if the countries in question were not theocracies because the religious element did not exist?

Christians may not have flown airplanes into Muslim buildings, but it certainly didn't stop Christians from locking up Muslims without due process in Guan. Bay. It hasn't stopped Christian people from viewing Arabs, Persians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and any other eastern person as dangerous or perhaps a terrorist.

It is the religion that divides us. We need to grow out of the belief of a dude in the sky and an afterlife because all we have is each other. The sooner we stop indoctrinating children in this belief of life after death, the better off this world will be. They'll realize that they only have each other in this world and they need to live THIS life to the fullest. We need to take care of one another HERE and NOW and that's never going to happen with people being brainwashed into thinking their religion is the one true religion (be it Christians, Jews or Muslims, etc...) and that their life in the HERE and NOW doesn't matter nearly as much as what awaits them after death.

[jbg]

It is the religion that divides us. We need to grow out of the belief of a dude in the sky and an afterlife because all we have is each other. The sooner we stop indoctrinating children in this belief of life after death, the better off this world will be. They'll realize that they only have each other in this world and they need to live THIS life to the fullest. We need to take care of one another HERE and NOW and that's never going to happen with people being brainwashed into thinking their religion is the one true religion (be it Christians, Jews or Muslims, etc...) and that their life in the HERE and NOW doesn't matter nearly as much as what awaits them after death.

People will find reasons to divide whether or not based on religion. Remember Communism v. fascism v. capitalism? That was once the fashionable divide.

[Black Dog]

But does this kind of thing happen in non-Muslim states? There may be examples, but they are few and far between.

Yes it does. And no, such incidents are not "few and far between". Rather, they are depressingly frequent. They may not get the same ink, but they are out there. Try doing a little research on this place "Africa."

While this New York Times article(link) seems to concern an accidental tragedy rather than a deliberate massacre, the death tolls are staggering. Even accidents seem to lead to carnage, via uncontrolled stampedes.

That story reminds me of this incident. But of course no one would dare suggest that the death toll there says anything about the character of the victims....

I do not find arguments about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin amusing, productive or helpful. You understand, I trust, the point of this thread, which is that the Arab/Muslim culture holds little value for life, their own or certainly ours. They give us no cause to fight them with both hands tied behind our back.

Given their primitive nature, their only hope for defeating us is in the front pages of the New York Times or Toronto Star.

Yeah: their clever strategy is to butcher each other. That'll teach us.

You know, it occurred to me this weekend, and the kind of bullshit jbg and others spout lead me to believe that our grandchildren will not be looking back at us from the shadow of Islam. Rather, they will ask themselves how a powerful, enlightened and civilized society, one that claimed to cherish life and freedom, could have come to commit unspeakable crimes out of unfounded fear and ignorance. Perhaps someday we'll look at people who's contrubution to the discussion is "slaughter them all" the same way we regard the murderers and propagandist of the Third Reich. The resembalance is striking.

[cybercoma]

It is the religion that divides us. We need to grow out of the belief of a dude in the sky and an afterlife because all we have is each other. The sooner we stop indoctrinating children in this belief of life after death, the better off this world will be. They'll realize that they only have each other in this world and they need to live THIS life to the fullest. We need to take care of one another HERE and NOW and that's never going to happen with people being brainwashed into thinking their religion is the one true religion (be it Christians, Jews or Muslims, etc...) and that their life in the HERE and NOW doesn't matter nearly as much as what awaits them after death.

People will find reasons to divide whether or not based on religion. Remember Communism v. fascism v. capitalism? That was once the fashionable divide.

It was, but do you see kids strapping on grenade belts and blowing themselves up in the name of Karl Marx? The battles waged in the name of God(s) has been far greater and more damaging.

Not to mention, we don't see a pictures of a children in Time magazine being labelled as Communist Children; however, it is more than acceptable to label a child as Jewish or Muslim or Christian. Jews avenging the death of other Jews and Muslims avenging the death of other Muslims for nothing more than a label is the major cause of violence in the Middle East, IMHO.

The death and destruction in the Middle East have far outweighed the usefulness of religion in those areas and it's the moderates who uphold 'religious freedom', making it untouchable and unquestionable, that are mostly to blame for creating the environment where fanaticism is allowed to flourish.

[myata]

Here's something else that is common for all three episodes: all occurred in the conflict zones which developed in the areas of recent interventions and/or interference by the powers of the West. Which of course were benevolent and well-intended (but didn't happen to go they should have). Want to explore this aspect as well?

[Drea]

It is the religion that divides us. We need to grow out of the belief of a dude in the sky and an afterlife because all we have is each other. The sooner we stop indoctrinating children in this belief of life after death, the better off this world will be. They'll realize that they only have each other in this world and they need to live THIS life to the fullest. We need to take care of one another HERE and NOW and that's never going to happen with people being brainwashed into thinking their religion is the one true religion (be it Christians, Jews or Muslims, etc...) and that their life in the HERE and NOW doesn't matter nearly as much as what awaits them after death.

Hear Hear!

All we have is about 80 short years to live on this beautiful earth, we should all make the most of it and quit worrying about what may or may not happen after we die.

[Rue]

It is the religion that divides us. We need to grow out of the belief of a dude in the sky and an afterlife because all we have is each other. The sooner we stop indoctrinating children in this belief of life after death, the better off this world will be. They'll realize that they only have each other in this world and they need to live THIS life to the fullest. We need to take care of one another HERE and NOW and that's never going to happen with people being brainwashed into thinking their religion is the one true religion (be it Christians, Jews or Muslims, etc...) and that their life in the HERE and NOW doesn't matter nearly as much as what awaits them after death.

Hear Hear!

All we have is about 80 short years to live on this beautiful earth, we should all make the most of it and quit worrying about what may or may not happen after we die.

I also applaud what Cyper said.

JB with due respect, can you see how your opinion can be twisted around by people who genuinely do not like you because of your being Jewish and make themselves sound self-righteous?

Us against them, is one way to define an equation but I know you are an intelligent and passionate man and know there is so much grey not just black and white. I also know you know the colour blood is red whether it is an Israeli's or a Palestinian's.

Terrorists and anti-semites want you to buy into the us against them mentality. Once they have you thinking like that, you place yourself in a self-limiting ghetto. Don't. Remember Warsaw. Remember our history. Jews could not have made it this far if we did not reach out to non Jews for help. Don't let the terrorists and anti-semites cause you to lose faith. Don't let the terrorists cause you to lose your humanity and give up on the goodness in people.

[jbg]

Terrorists and anti-semites want you to buy into the us against them mentality. Once they have you thinking like that, you place yourself in a self-limiting ghetto. Don't. Remember Warsaw. Remember our history. Jews could not have made it this far if we did not reach out to non Jews for help. Don't let the terrorists and anti-semites cause you to lose faith. Don't let the terrorists cause you to lose your humanity and give up on the goodness in people.

My point here is that there is a huge difference between Jews and other religious groups reaching out to each other, as humans, to build bridges, and appeasing the likes of those that would lure job seekers to a senseless, needless death.

[GostHacked]

JBG,

Your two first articles show Muslims fighting Muslims, possibly from different factions of Islam. The second is about Israel and Lebanon.

[GostHacked]

I also applaud what Cyper said.

I applaud it as well.

Terrorists and anti-semites want you to buy into the us against them mentality. Once they have you thinking like that, you place yourself in a self-limiting ghetto. Don't. Remember Warsaw. Remember our history. Jews could not have made it this far if we did not reach out to non Jews for help. Don't let the terrorists and anti-semites cause you to lose faith. Don't let the terrorists cause you to lose your humanity and give up on the goodness in people.

Even within a country's government it is A vs B. Dividing us against each other, which is the wrong way to go. It garners debate, but compromises need to be made for progress. And when you think only in one camp, you will never appreciate the good qualities in those you are taught to hate. We focus so much on the negative of a certain people, we rarely if ever see any good in them.