How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[cybercoma]

Was my addition to the free beer metaphor that bad?

[Michael Hardner]

I don't think anyone here is callign for the end of public healthcare. Merely that we be abllowed the choice to private care if we want. The Quebec supreme court already agreed with this position.

Why would you feel the need to put limits on choice in healthcare?

I'm all for adding private service, but the public system needs to have guaranteed funding.

[MightyAC]

Oh boy, I love metaphors!

To play devil's advocate, here:

What happens when the bartenders at the 'free-beer' bar leave because the owners can't pay them the wages they're sure to make at a bar that is charging $5 per pint? How then do we gaurantee that the best bartenders aren't exclusive to the bar that charges $5 per pint?

You can never ensure the best bartenders work at any bar. Why do bartenders even work in Canadian bars at all when they can earn many times more money in the US?

I like metaphors and analogies too however, your question leads more into the specifics of a multi-tiered system. Switzerland, Sweden, France, Japan, Luxembourg, etc all have successful systems that balance universal care with private delivery. I'm sure there are many ideas we can borrow.

For example, maybe all bars will be required to serve a minumum number of free beers each week or month. That way exclusive high priced bars will not be able to buy all the best bartenders as every bar will have to deal with some of the rif-raf. I don't have all the answers as to how we can ensure that everyone can get a beer in a reasonable time regardless of income but many nations have already tackled this problem. We just have to do some research.

[blueblood]

Oh boy, I love metaphors!

To play devil's advocate, here:

What happens when the bartenders at the 'free-beer' bar leave because the owners can't pay them the wages they're sure to make at a bar that is charging $5 per pint? How then do we gaurantee that the best bartenders aren't exclusive to the bar that charges $5 per pint?

You can never ensure the best bartenders work at any bar. Why do bartenders even work in Canadian bars at all when they can earn many times more money in the US?

I like metaphors and analogies too however, your question leads more into the specifics of a multi-tiered system. Switzerland, Sweden, France, Japan, Luxembourg, etc all have successful systems that balance universal care with private delivery. I'm sure there are many ideas we can borrow.

For example, maybe all bars will be required to serve a minumum number of free beers each week or month. That way exclusive high priced bars will not be able to buy all the best bartenders as every bar will have to deal with some of the rif-raf. I don't have all the answers as to how we can ensure that everyone can get a beer in a reasonable time regardless of income but many nations have already tackled this problem. We just have to do some research.

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

[mikedavid00]

Thank you guyser for your post.

The push behind this 'crisis' comes from individuals and corporations who want to see their taxes reduced so that they can buy private healthcare and pocket the difference.

There has been mismanagement, political grandstanding, but the system costs less than the US system and covers more people. It needs to be fixed, not dismantled. How is it that the system worked well once, and is said to be beyond repair now ? Funding needs to be there, and costs need to be controlled.

I don't think anyone here is callign for the end of public healthcare. Merely that we be abllowed the choice to private care if we want. The Quebec supreme court already agreed with this position.

Why would you feel the need to put limits on choice in healthcare?

Actually I think it's already ruled unconstitutional to deny private healthcare from Canadians, HOWEVER, the gov't can regulate these private clinics to the point where they don't offer any real services like what is happened in Vancouver with the first private emergancy room with no wait times.

We need large, new built hospitals here in Canada funded by US shareholders. I feel that's the only way we can fix our problems.

The gov't spends about 500 billion dollars of expendatures. +100 Billion is spent on healthcare. I'm suggesting we need 300 billion in expendatures just to begin to fix our problems. This is not possible. At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

[mikedavid00]

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

Becuase that idealism has been proven not to work here in Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

[blueblood]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

i don't think there was nearly as much programs back then, maybe they were better with money... I don't know.

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

Becuase that idealism has been proven not to work here in Canada.

If canadian health care won't follow that idealism for a two-tiered set up then some guy who can't afford health care is in trouble as the better more skilled doctors/professionals gravitate towards the better paying private sector, no there needs to be regulations in this so that the doctors get paid a set wage (which is already a nice chunk of change) health gets delivered, and wait times reduced.

[mikedavid00]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

Because we let people into our country who used medical services more than they paid in. Ponder these two points. Please take the time to read them:

1- 50,000 people with Canadian ID's were living in Lebanon as Canadians were amazed to learn. Most were from Montreal. Under our laws, they are allowed to come here to get a medical procedure. Even if they never paid into the system or have leved in Canada for less than a year or never paid taxes.

Suppose 1% need a medical procedure each year. That is 500 medical procedures each year. Most of these people lived in Montreal. So lets say that's 350 surgeries a year. Thus, the system gets clogged with one surgery patient a day from people that aren't even living in the country. Multiply this with all the other countries where people are living and are not paying taxes.

2 - A co-worker arrived with his brother from Syria 5 years ago. He was 22 years old. He used services and took a student loan and went to University. Got out 4 years later and at 27 he got his first job with me as a team mate. He was in poor healtch and came here with knee problems. Syria he said 'leaves you to die'. It was amusing hearing him call Canadians 'forgiegners'. But that's another topic. He basically waiting 9 months or so and got a knee surgery. He was always getting xrays and such. Then after the surgey, he was in physio therepy for 6 months. He complained that his knee joint was still sometimes achning and is pusing for another surgery.

I estimated in total, Canadian tax payers, as a gross, total most likely spent $50,000 to $100,000 on all his medical attention while he has done nothing but use services from our country. He held his job for 1 year and is now unemployed using more gov't services.

--

I can tell many more stories like this but i'm trying to cut this short. I am very close the immigrant circle in my personal life TRUST ME. I see first hand what happens. How a Pakistani down the street from me brought in his mother and skipped the queue to get a catorach eye surgery in less than a month of her ariving in Canada (ninja head scarf and all). He used his Pakistani medical connections in our system. I felt like contacting the media over this.

Our system DOES work if it's only intended for born Canadians or for people that have paid into it for 20 years, it DOES NOT work when we open our doors internationally to 300,000 people a year, most of which are family sponsored, with elderly, sick, ailing, etc. who use our precious healthcare system.

Now, we have 8 month waiting lists with poeple DYING on them all the time just so the Liberal party could create a political fanchinse within our country and we can be 'fair' to 'everyone'.

[Saturn]

Well it's going to be 2007 soon. So lets bring back this old dog.

Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. In order to have no waiting times like the US and many other countries, we need to spend a lot more into health care.

I'm suggesting that our Country is not 'rich' enough to be able to fix our health care problems.

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

A thought might be to create a new Canadian Healthcare Tax (CHT) which would tax Canadians an additional 10% thus raising the additional monies needed.

The problem with that, is people would loose their cars, homes, and businesses would go under. A mess would be created (Bob Rae style).

When are we going to realize the only thing that will offload the burden on our public system is to let the American's come and build private hospitals? There are many income trust loving Canadians who would be more than willing to pay $350 a month for a private healthcare plan. Thus, it would offload the public system and shorten our wait times. It would also give employers the chance to offer healthcare plans to their employees thus further eliminating the clogging of the Canada health system. Thus, it's a win win for everyone involved.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

This is such a pile of nonsense that it's not worth responding to.

[Saturn]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

Because we let people into our country who used medical services more than they paid in. Ponder these two points. Please take the time to read them:

1- 50,000 people with Canadian ID's were living in Lebanon as Canadians were amazed to learn. Most were from Montreal. Under our laws, they are allowed to come here to get a medical procedure. Even if they never paid into the system or have leved in Canada for less than a year or never paid taxes.

Suppose 1% need a medical procedure each year. That is 500 medical procedures each year. Most of these people lived in Montreal. So lets say that's 350 surgeries a year. Thus, the system gets clogged with one surgery patient a day from people that aren't even living in the country. Multiply this with all the other countries where people are living and are not paying taxes.

2 - A co-worker arrived with his brother from Syria 5 years ago. He was 22 years old. He used services and took a student loan and went to University. Got out 4 years later and at 27 he got his first job with me as a team mate. He was in poor healtch and came here with knee problems. Syria he said 'leaves you to die'. It was amusing hearing him call Canadians 'forgiegners'. But that's another topic. He basically waiting 9 months or so and got a knee surgery. He was always getting xrays and such. Then after the surgey, he was in physio therepy for 6 months. He complained that his knee joint was still sometimes achning and is pusing for another surgery.

I estimated in total, Canadian tax payers, as a gross, total most likely spent $50,000 to $100,000 on all his medical attention while he has done nothing but use services from our country. He held his job for 1 year and is now unemployed using more gov't services.

--

I can tell many more stories like this but i'm trying to cut this short. I am very close the immigrant circle in my personal life TRUST ME. I see first hand what happens. How a Pakistani down the street from me brought in his mother and skipped the queue to get a catorach eye surgery in less than a month of her ariving in Canada (ninja head scarf and all). He used his Pakistani medical connections in our system. I felt like contacting the media over this.

Our system DOES work if it's only intended for born Canadians or for people that have paid into it for 20 years, it DOES NOT work when we open our doors internationally to 300,000 people a year, most of which are family sponsored, with elderly, sick, ailing, etc. who use our precious healthcare system.

Now, we have 8 month waiting lists with poeple DYING on them all the time just so the Liberal party could create a political fanchinse within our country and we can be 'fair' to 'everyone'.

Oh, there we go...it's all the evil immigrants that cause all your problems. Pfff.

[Saturn]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

i don't think there was nearly as much programs back then, maybe they were better with money... I don't know.

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

Becuase that idealism has been proven not to work here in Canada.

If canadian health care won't follow that idealism for a two-tiered set up then some guy who can't afford health care is in trouble as the better more skilled doctors/professionals gravitate towards the better paying private sector, no there needs to be regulations in this so that the doctors get paid a set wage (which is already a nice chunk of change) health gets delivered, and wait times reduced.

It all comes down to the medical associations who do everything in their power (and they have a lot of power) to keep the number of health practitioners down to a minimum. Like everything else it's a question of supply and demand and since they cannot affect demand (demand is going up as it is with our aging population) the key to charging rediculous prices for their services is to keep the supply of health care professionals at the lowest level possible. In the meantime we have several thousand doctors washing dishes and driving cabs but they cannot be allowed to practise because that would lower the current doctors's wages and we all know that they can't possibly make ends meet with less than $400K/year. It is an artificially created crisis for the benefit of doctors (who expect a good raise when the system is privatised) and private investors and insurance companies (who expect to make $50 billion or so a year from a private system).

[Argus]

Well it's going to be 2007 soon. So lets bring back this old dog.

Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. In order to have no waiting times like the US and many other countries, we need to spend a lot more into health care.

Why? The last time I checked spending on health care we were very close to the top of the list. Only a couple of European countries - and the US, of course - spent more than us, and in the case of the Europeans it wasn't a whole helluva lot more.

I'm suggesting that our Country is not 'rich' enough to be able to fix our health care problems.

The French and Germans can afford it but we can't??

[White Doors]

Well it's going to be 2007 soon. So lets bring back this old dog.

Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. In order to have no waiting times like the US and many other countries, we need to spend a lot more into health care.

I'm suggesting that our Country is not 'rich' enough to be able to fix our health care problems.

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

A thought might be to create a new Canadian Healthcare Tax (CHT) which would tax Canadians an additional 10% thus raising the additional monies needed.

The problem with that, is people would loose their cars, homes, and businesses would go under. A mess would be created (Bob Rae style).

When are we going to realize the only thing that will offload the burden on our public system is to let the American's come and build private hospitals? There are many income trust loving Canadians who would be more than willing to pay $350 a month for a private healthcare plan. Thus, it would offload the public system and shorten our wait times. It would also give employers the chance to offer healthcare plans to their employees thus further eliminating the clogging of the Canada health system. Thus, it's a win win for everyone involved.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

This is such a pile of nonsense that it's not worth responding to.

Your posts are not worth responding to, you are correct on that.

[White Doors]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

i don't think there was nearly as much programs back then, maybe they were better with money... I don't know.

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

Becuase that idealism has been proven not to work here in Canada.

If canadian health care won't follow that idealism for a two-tiered set up then some guy who can't afford health care is in trouble as the better more skilled doctors/professionals gravitate towards the better paying private sector, no there needs to be regulations in this so that the doctors get paid a set wage (which is already a nice chunk of change) health gets delivered, and wait times reduced.

It all comes down to the medical associations who do everything in their power (and they have a lot of power) to keep the number of health practitioners down to a minimum. Like everything else it's a question of supply and demand and since they cannot affect demand (demand is going up as it is with our aging population) the key to charging rediculous prices for their services is to keep the supply of health care professionals at the lowest level possible. In the meantime we have several thousand doctors washing dishes and driving cabs but they cannot be allowed to practise because that would lower the current doctors's wages and we all know that they can't possibly make ends meet with less than $400K/year. It is an artificially created crisis for the benefit of doctors (who expect a good raise when the system is privatised) and private investors and insurance companies (who expect to make $50 billion or so a year from a private system).

My goodness. you are the most obvious socialist on this site. EVERYONE of the people who took medicine that I knew when I was in school has went to the US and stayed there. That was nurses and Dr's.

Perhaps we could try to keep our own Dr's here before we try to have a guy trained in medicine who trained at the U of Mozambique qualified to do surgery here?

But you're right - it's all the greedy Dr's fault.

[Argus]

As far as I'm concerned, healthcare is already privatized.

Prescriptions already come out of pocket because none of the provincial healthcare plans cover them (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm honestly not 100% positive, but the provinces I've lived in didn't cover drugs).

Well, in Ontario, at least, seniors get their prescriptions free. And there are suplimentary drug allowances and payments to people with particularly expensive drug needs.

[Argus]

I honestly wonder what country you people are living in. Do any of you have first hand knowledge of the health care system? Can you honestly say it is bad?

Yes, it is clearly bad. You can't say a system works well when it takes 10 hours to have a basic broken arm or wrist set in a hospital.

It takes far too long for cancer treatment, far too long to even get in to see a specialist before the treatment. It takes far too long for diagnostic tests, and far too long for basic operations. Get used to it? I don't choose to. Why should Canadians get used to it when those in other countries do not face such waits?

[Saturn]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

i don't think there was nearly as much programs back then, maybe they were better with money... I don't know.

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

Becuase that idealism has been proven not to work here in Canada.

If canadian health care won't follow that idealism for a two-tiered set up then some guy who can't afford health care is in trouble as the better more skilled doctors/professionals gravitate towards the better paying private sector, no there needs to be regulations in this so that the doctors get paid a set wage (which is already a nice chunk of change) health gets delivered, and wait times reduced.

It all comes down to the medical associations who do everything in their power (and they have a lot of power) to keep the number of health practitioners down to a minimum. Like everything else it's a question of supply and demand and since they cannot affect demand (demand is going up as it is with our aging population) the key to charging rediculous prices for their services is to keep the supply of health care professionals at the lowest level possible. In the meantime we have several thousand doctors washing dishes and driving cabs but they cannot be allowed to practise because that would lower the current doctors's wages and we all know that they can't possibly make ends meet with less than $400K/year. It is an artificially created crisis for the benefit of doctors (who expect a good raise when the system is privatised) and private investors and insurance companies (who expect to make $50 billion or so a year from a private system).

My goodness. you are the most obvious socialist on this site. EVERYONE of the people who took medicine that I knew when I was in school has went to the US and stayed there. That was nurses and Dr's.

Perhaps we could try to keep our own Dr's here before we try to have a guy trained in medicine who trained at the U of Mozambique qualified to do surgery here?

But you're right - it's all the greedy Dr's fault.

It is. In Canada we have fewer residency spots (you need to go through a 3-year residency program at a hospital to become a doctor) than the number of medical students graduating in the country. So, 1,500 students graduate and only 1,200 can train to become doctors. The rest can wash dishes or go to the US and practice medicine. The same goes for foreign doctors. They pass their medical exams (which puts them at par with a canadian graduate) but they can't get into the residency programs. So they go to the US. The proportion of immigrant health care professionals who leave Canada within 5 years of arrival is 3 times higher than the proportion of computer programmers who leave Canada, which is 3 times higher than immigrants in any other field of work. So we let them come here, pass the medical exams and then we ship them directly to the US to take care of american patients. And we wait 8 months to see a dermatologist. Aren't we bright!

[Argus]

I am not the one to normally flame posters, but Sir you leave yourself open to such abuse when you post that tripe.

This country would be doomed without immigration.

Drivel.

We NEED those folks.

For what? Taxi drivers and cleaning staff?

Perhaps your neck of the woods is not aware that Alberta would open the floodgates to get people in. They are closing stores, reducing operating hours , offering $11 an hour for 7-11 clerks beacuse there is not enough people.

Then the answer would seem to be to retrain and move people from other parts of Canada.

[Argus]

Thank you guyser for your post.

The push behind this 'crisis' comes from individuals and corporations who want to see their taxes reduced so that they can buy private healthcare and pocket the difference.

The push comes from ordinary people who are tired of waiting for ten or fifteen hours in waiting rooms, tired of seeing their loved ones wait months to get proper diagnostic screening or cancer care.

[Saturn]

I honestly wonder what country you people are living in. Do any of you have first hand knowledge of the health care system? Can you honestly say it is bad?

Yes, it is clearly bad. You can't say a system works well when it takes 10 hours to have a basic broken arm or wrist set in a hospital.

It takes far too long for cancer treatment, far too long to even get in to see a specialist before the treatment. It takes far too long for diagnostic tests, and far too long for basic operations. Get used to it? I don't choose to. Why should Canadians get used to it when those in other countries do not face such waits?

It takes so long because we don't have enough people to perform these procedures. If we have a private system, how exactly is the number of doctors going to increase? We have 50,000 doctors and that's it. Public or private, that number is not going to go up. Or do you intend to let anyone off the street be a doctor in a private system?

[White Doors]

At this point, our country is not 'rich' enough to fund a functioning healthcare system.

Why was the country rich enough in the past and not now ?

i don't think there was nearly as much programs back then, maybe they were better with money... I don't know.

Why not have anyone who wants to be a bartender at any bar in Canada have a set wage that is governed by the Canada bar act.

Becuase that idealism has been proven not to work here in Canada.

If canadian health care won't follow that idealism for a two-tiered set up then some guy who can't afford health care is in trouble as the better more skilled doctors/professionals gravitate towards the better paying private sector, no there needs to be regulations in this so that the doctors get paid a set wage (which is already a nice chunk of change) health gets delivered, and wait times reduced.

It all comes down to the medical associations who do everything in their power (and they have a lot of power) to keep the number of health practitioners down to a minimum. Like everything else it's a question of supply and demand and since they cannot affect demand (demand is going up as it is with our aging population) the key to charging rediculous prices for their services is to keep the supply of health care professionals at the lowest level possible. In the meantime we have several thousand doctors washing dishes and driving cabs but they cannot be allowed to practise because that would lower the current doctors's wages and we all know that they can't possibly make ends meet with less than $400K/year. It is an artificially created crisis for the benefit of doctors (who expect a good raise when the system is privatised) and private investors and insurance companies (who expect to make $50 billion or so a year from a private system).

My goodness. you are the most obvious socialist on this site. EVERYONE of the people who took medicine that I knew when I was in school has went to the US and stayed there. That was nurses and Dr's.

Perhaps we could try to keep our own Dr's here before we try to have a guy trained in medicine who trained at the U of Mozambique qualified to do surgery here?

But you're right - it's all the greedy Dr's fault.

It is. In Canada we have fewer residency spots (you need to go through a 3-year residency program at a hospital to become a doctor) than the number of medical students graduating in the country. So, 1,500 students graduate and only 1,200 can train to become doctors. The rest can wash dishes or go to the US and practice medicine. The same goes for foreign doctors. They pass their medical exams (which puts them at par with a canadian graduate) but they can't get into the residency programs. So they go to the US. The proportion of immigrant health care professionals who leave Canada within 5 years of arrival is 3 times higher than the proportion of computer programmers who leave Canada, which is 3 times higher than immigrants in any other field of work. So we let them come here, pass the medical exams and then we ship them directly to the US to take care of american patients. And we wait 8 months to see a dermatologist. Aren't we bright!

Good - get some private hospitals set up and increase the amount of residency spots available.

Glad we agree.

[Hydraboss]

Saturn, the reality is that the doctors and nurses that would move over to "higher paying" private positions are the ones that will move to the States if Canada doesn't offer the private option. It already happens with droves of RN's from Alberta (and we have the highest pay as per the UNA CBA in the country). So that leaves us with the option: Give them the pay and benefit of working in the private sector, or just hold the door open when they move out of the country.

Your number of 50,000 doc's is not static. We are losing them now, so if the residency spots are not being made available the number will dwindle.

[jdobbin]

The question is how much healthcare is enough? There is no shortage of new drugs and procedures available at ever esclating costs. If we don't explicitly ration healthcare, we face rationing anyway in the form of doctor shortages and long wait times. As a first step why not make private care available to those who are willing to pay to avoid the rationing? Is it out of spite (ie I can't afford the procedure, so you shouln't be able to purchase the procedure even if you can afford it)?

I think the right wing response is that everyone has to to die sometime. At 65, you've lived a long life. Time to move on.

[jdobbin]

Saturn, the reality is that the doctors and nurses that would move over to "higher paying" private positions are the ones that will move to the States if Canada doesn't offer the private option. It already happens with droves of RN's from Alberta (and we have the highest pay as per the UNA CBA in the country). So that leaves us with the option: Give them the pay and benefit of working in the private sector, or just hold the door open when they move out of the country.

Your number of 50,000 doc's is not static. We are losing them now, so if the residency spots are not being made available the number will dwindle.

What is the number leaving now?