How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

[mikedavid00]

Well it's going to be 2007 soon. So lets bring back this old dog.

Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. In order to have no waiting times like the US and many other countries, we need to spend a lot more into health care.

I'm suggesting that our Country is not 'rich' enough to be able to fix our health care problems.

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

A thought might be to create a new Canadian Healthcare Tax (CHT) which would tax Canadians an additional 10% thus raising the additional monies needed.

The problem with that, is people would loose their cars, homes, and businesses would go under. A mess would be created (Bob Rae style).

When are we going to realize the only thing that will offload the burden on our public system is to let the American's come and build private hospitals? There are many income trust loving Canadians who would be more than willing to pay $350 a month for a private healthcare plan. Thus, it would offload the public system and shorten our wait times. It would also give employers the chance to offer healthcare plans to their employees thus further eliminating the clogging of the Canada health system. Thus, it's a win win for everyone involved.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

[geoffrey]

I'd glady take private care in a heartbeat.

[Slavik44]

You know it is interesting that most Canadians pride themselves and this country on our healthcare system, its kind of a sad reflection of Canadian status when our pride and joy gets ranked 30th overall by the World Health Organization. Protect the Candain health system? 30th overall? I would rahter improve the damn thing. If we look closer at that report most of the top countries including number one ranked spain, all borrow on a similar concept of having public health insurance that covers all or most of the costs associated with medical proceadures, while still allowing for private delivery.

I reminded of this one time when I read that Jack Layton said he wouldn't be opposed to Private Health Care, if it could be ensured that no public money was spent on it. Now call me old fashioned, but shouldn't we be more worried about saving lives, then saving public health care. I mean really, who here would refuse to give money to a private individual to save a life, but then be more than willing to give more money to a public official just to get someone on a waitinglist. I more worried about human life than union towel washers.

When the best systems in the world are able to incorporate the universality of the Canadian system with out the huge waiting lists, and lower costs...I think they might be on to something. Tommy Douglas, campaigned for universal Health Care, so people would not be turned away because they did not have enough money. Less then half a century later the Canadian Health System is turning people away because it doesn't have enough money. We are still turning people away, people still are not getting the treatment they deserve, but we are protecting union jobs....well that isn't much comfort to those who can't get timely treatment. I think it is time for people to recognize that it was and should still be universal Health, not union health.

[geoffrey]

Good call Slavik. It should be about lives and not about some 40 year old ideology.

There are many examples of countries that balance universality and private-sector delivery with amazing results.

This is yet another issue where most Canadians are more about style than substaince or results (signing Kyoto, Public Health Care, one in the same). Until they realise our system is so far from the best, they'll go on believe that private delivery is the devil it's portrayed to be by the Liberals and NDP. And, like Kyoto, they keep on supporting it despite the absolute lack of results... or in both cases, the negative results.

"Friends of Medicare" group needs to be tried for treason, their lies are killing us.

Hopefully Canadians wake up in the near future.

My family had to send my sister south to the states to get acceptable care... Canadian doctors simply couldn't be bothered. What of the families that can't afford it? They just suffer, and die... all because of an ideology. Two-tier health is here, regardless if you want it or not. Canadians that can afford US care or Canadians that have to wait years for substandard care. That's the current option.

Surely we can do better.

Public health only supporters all need a good smack in the head when they realise the trouble, suffering and deaths they cause. It's disgusting.

[margrace]

Our health care cost right now are, according to the news this morning, $4500 per person in Canada. So my husband and I live on a very fixed income. However my husband and his company have paid into an insurance plan for many years. He Pays $216 a month and the company pays somewhere around $$324 a month. Thats around $600 a month. Our income right now is $1800 disability from the insurance company plus $1600 from the government pensions. In two years time he will be 65 and lose the $1800 and the government plan will give us $800 more. That is a lose of $1,000 a month.

So if in our declining years it cost us an average of $9000 a year where would we get that money.

I think you should check some figures on how much Americans who can afford it are paying for private health care. If ours cost $600 a month why would you get it for $350. I think people who believe this are living on cloud nine.

[Renegade]

Our health care cost right now are, according to the news this morning, $4500 per person in Canada.

That number seems a good estimate. However you should note that there are wide variations by group. For example the average healthcare cost for those over 65 are over $10,000 a person.

So my husband and I live on a very fixed income. However my husband and his company have paid into an insurance plan for many years. He Pays $216 a month and the company pays somewhere around $$324 a month. Thats around $600 a month.

Do you mean for supplemental healthcare coverage (ie drugs, vision, dental, physio, ...)

So if in our declining years it cost us an average of $9000 a year where would we get that money.

It would cost you a lot more than $9000 a year. You are in a category which would be expected to consume a lot more healthcare services. Assuming you are in average health for your age, I expect that it would cost you at least $20000/year for equivalent coverage.

I think you should check some figures on how much Americans who can afford it are paying for private health care. If ours cost $600 a month why would you get it for $350. I think people who believe this are living on cloud nine.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The $600/month is for suplemental health coverage not for core health coverage. The health care system is funded out of general taxes and the $600 you pay is already to private insurance institutions.

-------------------------------------

The question is how much healthcare is enough? There is no shortage of new drugs and procedures available at ever esclating costs. If we don't explicitly ration healthcare, we face rationing anyway in the form of doctor shortages and long wait times. As a first step why not make private care available to those who are willing to pay to avoid the rationing? Is it out of spite (ie I can't afford the procedure, so you shouln't be able to purchase the procedure even if you can afford it)?

[cybercoma]

As far as I'm concerned, healthcare is already privatized.

Prescriptions already come out of pocket because none of the provincial healthcare plans cover them (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm honestly not 100% positive, but the provinces I've lived in didn't cover drugs).

It seems a little silly to consider our healthcare completely covered when we're already paying into private insurance plans to get prescription drugs that are needed. I mean, sure major medical procedures aren't paid directly out of our pocket, but we pay private insurers for drugs, why not pay them for medical procedures as well; we're already half-way there.

[geoffrey]

Don't discount the yankee involvement either cyber, I can go to Montana and get whatever I want tomorrow, instead of waiting in lines here, sometimes for years.

Two-tier is here already, but the gap between the rich and the poor is huge. By bringing private health care and private insurance to Canada, you narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, while possibily encouraging the public system to better compete.

[Black Dog]

Two-tier is here already, but the gap between the rich and the poor is huge. By bringing private health care and private insurance to Canada, you narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, while possibily encouraging the public system to better compete.

How?

[geoffrey]

Two-tier is here already, but the gap between the rich and the poor is huge. By bringing private health care and private insurance to Canada, you narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, while possibily encouraging the public system to better compete.

How?

I can go to the States, poor people can't. That's two-tier. Let's level the playing field.

Adding the cost of the flight, accomodations to the price of your treatment is sometimes unaffordable. Having the clinics in your home city is a big improvement and will open up the accessibility of private clinics to more people.

Private insurance isn't hugely expensive either, if you carried this in Canada, to use at Canadian clinics, it certainly levels the playing field considerably.

[cybercoma]

Two-tier is here already, but the gap between the rich and the poor is huge. By bringing private health care and private insurance to Canada, you narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, while possibily encouraging the public system to better compete.

How?

I used to live in Windsor, ON. He's implying that there's two-tier healthcare because in Windsor I could head to Detroit and get medical care with the same basics covered by OHIP that would've been covered in Ontario. If I had the money at the time for additional care, I could skip lines (cutting the queue being the biggest objection people have to two-tiered healthcare) by travelling to the US. Often times people would do this and the healthcare system in Southwestern Ontario is so bad that the hospitals would sometimes be forced to send patients to Detroit.

Two-tier is not in Canada; however, it is accessable to Canadians living on the border and richer Canadians that can afford to travel over the border. I know I'm being anecdotal, but the quality of healthcare in the US is much better than over here: for those who can afford it.

[Black Dog]

I can go to the States, poor people can't. That's two-tier. Let's level the playing field.

Adding the cost of the flight, accomodations to the price of your treatment is sometimes unaffordable. Having the clinics in your home city is a big improvement and will open up the accessibility of private clinics to more people.

Mmhmmm. And if they are from outside of the major centres where the private clinics set up shop? They still have to eat the cost of travel and accomodation, as well as treatment.

Private insurance isn't hugely expensive either, if you carried this in Canada, to use at Canadian clinics, it certainly levels the playing field considerably.

Are there any successful models of public/private integration in health?

[geoffrey]

I can go to the States, poor people can't. That's two-tier. Let's level the playing field.

Adding the cost of the flight, accomodations to the price of your treatment is sometimes unaffordable. Having the clinics in your home city is a big improvement and will open up the accessibility of private clinics to more people.

Mmhmmm. And if they are from outside of the major centres where the private clinics set up shop? They still have to eat the cost of travel and accomodation, as well as treatment.

So instead we should do nothing, right?

Private insurance isn't hugely expensive either, if you carried this in Canada, to use at Canadian clinics, it certainly levels the playing field considerably.

Are there any successful models of public/private integration in health?

France, Sweden, Norway, Spain. Most of Europe really. Only Canada has socialist style government only care in the Western world (outside of Cuba).

[mikedavid00]

We are still turning people away, people still are not getting the treatment they deserve, but we are protecting union jobs....well that isn't much comfort to those who can't get timely treatment. I think it is time for people to recognize that it was and should still be universal Health, not union health.

Well firstly when you have an abundance of people entering the country and using a system that have not paid into it, eventually it will catch up and now it has. Those mentioned European countries on the top of the list do not have mass immigration.

It's a win/win for everyone at this point if we open up private hospitals. I think actually 30% of all Canadians would leave the public system within 10 years thus reducing the waiting lines and improving healthcare for those that need to use the public system.

I used to be extremely against 2 tier systems because it meant that a person with more money gets better treatment that everyone else.

Now being older and matured, I realize the destruction that needless, mass immigration has done to our country. As long as Canadians want to plug their ears up when the topic of immigrations comes up, non of our problems will ever get fixed.

[mikedavid00]

Two-tier is not in Canada; however, it is accessable to Canadians living on the border and richer Canadians that can afford to travel over the border. I know I'm being anecdotal, but the quality of healthcare in the US is much better than over here: for those who can afford it.

People don't realize that healthcare is usually included by most US employers and the same would most likely happen here.

Costco, Wal-Mart, and most all US based companies provide healtchare plans for their employees. If you work at Burger King you are out of luck and have to use the HMO system.

Oh yeah, the HMO system has no waiting times.

[guyser]

Well it's going to be 2007 soon. So lets bring back this old dog.

Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. In order to have no waiting times like the US and many other countries, we need to spend a lot more into health care.

I'm suggesting that our Country is not 'rich' enough to be able to fix our health care problems.

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

A thought might be to create a new Canadian Healthcare Tax (CHT) which would tax Canadians an additional 10% thus raising the additional monies needed.

The problem with that, is people would loose their cars, homes, and businesses would go under. A mess would be created (Bob Rae style).

When are we going to realize the only thing that will offload the burden on our public system is to let the American's come and build private hospitals? There are many income trust loving Canadians who would be more than willing to pay $350 a month for a private healthcare plan. Thus, it would offload the public system and shorten our wait times. It would also give employers the chance to offer healthcare plans to their employees thus further eliminating the clogging of the Canada health system. Thus, it's a win win for everyone involved.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

I honestly wonder what country you people are living in. Do any of you have first hand knowledge of the health care system? Can you honestly say it is bad?

Do I have first hand knowledge?......pretty much as I have spent the past few years, pretty much since Sept 11, 2001 in hospitals , had a break in Dec 2003 and have been in and out of hospitals and clinics for the past six months.

I see plenty of great things happening in our hospitals and with our doctors , and in conjunction with the rest of the medical community I see it works and works well.

I wont dwell on the details but for a summary. My dad was diagnosed with an aneurysm. His operation was 9-11 (yes..that day)

Double bypass, kidney failure , stroke , heart attacks...you name it he had, and he was 74 yrs old. When they diagnosed a need for a double bypass ...gee it was done in a matter of 4 days.Everyday for 2.5 years I was in a hospital seeing him and meeting Docs and nurses.

As for myself, I am going thru Cancer treatment right now. I have been very pleased with the actions of all involved. I was diagnosed in August after feeling lousy all July.

So, yes I can say with some "first hand knowledge" that our system is one to be damn proud of because it works and works well.

To suggest , even remotely , that the US system is better is ludicrous and misguided. (40M uninsured, expected to rise to 100M in 10 years...hospitals closing in Cali due to strain from illegals) They do have amazing docs in the US, most of the best of the best are there. Good for them , wopuldn't want their E&O expenses, but hey, that is the US ' problem.

Do we need to look at our system and make it better? Of course we do, everything can be improved and our system is no different.

Name me a country with better health care......AND has the geographic expanse we have. We are unique in so many regards with respect to our health care. People want to live in small towns all over this great country and yet they want the best health care provided next door. It cannot work that way.

Of the people that I know personally that whine about the health care system, most of them can be dismissed as pure and simple whiners. Thats right whiners.

So people have to wait for an operation. Get used to it. It would seem obvious to me that the Doctors have consulted and realize that there "may" be others that are in dire need to have something done now, so those that have the luxury of their illness not being acute, must wait.

Perhaps, and it pains me to write, we need to look at what we are doing with respect to our ever growing legions of elderly. I am of the opinion that my dad should NOT have had a double bypass at his age. I did not think he had much time left anyway,unfortunately I was right. Maybe the Docs should have made that call.

So lets look at what we are spending money on and improve that .

But for god sakes, the Health Care in this country is amazing. It could certainly be better, but I am damn proud of our docs and nurses. Especially the nurses.

Nurse, what an amazing group of caring individuals. Not one complaint from me.

Improve it , assist it , put a $20 co-pay......but do not denigrate it.

[guyser]

[

Well firstly when you have an abundance of people entering the country and using a system that have not paid into it, eventually it will catch up and now it has. Those mentioned European countries on the top of the list do not have mass immigration.

It's a win/win for everyone at this point if we open up private hospitals. I think actually 30% of all Canadians would leave the public system within 10 years thus reducing the waiting lines and improving healthcare for those that need to use the public system.

I used to be extremely against 2 tier systems because it meant that a person with more money gets better treatment that everyone else.

Now being older and matured, I realize the destruction that needless, mass immigration has done to our country. As long as Canadians want to plug their ears up when the topic of immigrations comes up, non of our problems will ever get fixed.

Mr mikedavid......... yikes ! Older and matured ??

I am not the one to normally flame posters, but Sir you leave yourself open to such abuse when you post that tripe.

This country would be doomed without immigration. We NEED those folks. As for not paying in , well employers tax pays for health care , so when they get a job, then they ARE paying. Maybe the welfare bums, you know the ones born and bred here, need to be shunted off?

Mass immigration IS ocurring in Europe.

Quit thinly veiling your myopic views , "Canadians want to plug their ears when the topic of immigrations.." , and just come out and say you have no tolerance or need for immigrants.

Perhaps your neck of the woods is not aware that Alberta would open the floodgates to get people in. They are closing stores, reducing operating hours , offering $11 an hour for 7-11 clerks beacuse there is not enough people.

Yup, blame the problems on the immigrants. Those people, sheesh.....what need do we have when better than 50% of all immigrants come here with university degrees.

Quit reading american newspapers , they DO HAVE a problem with immigration.

What we need to do is get the thickheaded people who control CMA to relax the rules to allow Doctors to come to this country. Test them, get a scope of their competency, and put them to work. Heck, allow them to practice, but with stipends that they must operate for four years in rural Canada, and that way we solve one problem for Canadians. Rural health care is a problem.

But no, the CMA and the Physicians and Surgeons group would rather these new people drive cabs and buses.

And for the poster who said Wal-Mart and large companies like them offer US Health Care.....please check your facts.

Wal -Mart employees are the second biggest drain on US healthcare .

[Michael Hardner]

Thank you guyser for your post.

The push behind this 'crisis' comes from individuals and corporations who want to see their taxes reduced so that they can buy private healthcare and pocket the difference.

There has been mismanagement, political grandstanding, but the system costs less than the US system and covers more people. It needs to be fixed, not dismantled. How is it that the system worked well once, and is said to be beyond repair now ? Funding needs to be there, and costs need to be controlled.

[guyser]

Thank you guyser for your post.

The push behind this 'crisis' comes from individuals and corporations who want to see their taxes reduced so that they can buy private healthcare and pocket the difference.

There has been mismanagement, political grandstanding, but the system costs less than the US system and covers more people. It needs to be fixed, not dismantled. How is it that the system worked well once, and is said to be beyond repair now ? Funding needs to be there, and costs need to be controlled.

You are welcome Sir.

As to the whys and hows of this crisis I have some ideas.

Such things as entitlements pepole feel they "deserve". Look at how everyone wants their 15 minutes. When anyone walks into a clinic/hospital , they want their 15 mins.

People use the system as a maintenance program. Moms and dads did not take Jr to the hospital when he had a fever or threw up. My mom didnt , nor did any of my friends. But now? They sure do! That puts a strain on these hospitals.

Corps want to push this on us in order to save money. What we do not realize is that it will cost us a lot more money once it is instituted. Americans pay huge dollars to have health care. We do not want that.There will be no pcketing the diff. You will be dipping in that pocket and paying through the nose in no time.

My american friends that come up are thrilled with our system They like it, it works and they are amazed at the speed that they get taken care. As for the bill they get....not one complaint.

I will follow this discussion closely and report more. But right now I am off to see the Neurological Surgeon and get the news.

Flame suit on

[MightyAC]

There are many examples of countries that balance universality and private-sector delivery with amazing results.

Right...many countries have private delivery with public funding. Considering so many European countries are receiving top marks for their healthcare systems why aren't we copying them? They've done the leg work, all we have to do is research their systems and pick and choose their best ideas.

I absolutely hate it when people say that Private Healthcare means rich people get ahead in line. That's BS...they move to a different line completely.

I like the free beer example. A bar is giving away free beer. As you would expect the lineup starts to stretch down the street in no time at all. Pretty soon everyone is waiting hours for a free beer. A bar next door opens up and sells beer for $5 a pint. Half the people in line don't have $5 bucks to spare so they stay put...the other half move next door and get a beer in a few minutes.

Some say those rich bastards shouldn't get beer any faster than the rest of us.. I say great my line is now half as long.

[cybercoma]

Right...many countries have private delivery with public funding. Considering so many European countries are receiving top marks for their healthcare systems why aren't we copying them? They've done the leg

I like the free beer example. A bar is giving away free beer. As you would expect the lineup starts to stretch down the street in no time at all. Pretty soon everyone is waiting hours for a free beer. A bar next door opens up and sells beer for $5 a pint. Half the people in line don't have $5 bucks to spare so they stay put...the other half move next door and get a beer in a few minutes.

Some say those rich bastards shouldn't get beer any faster than the rest of us.. I say great my line is now half as long.

Oh boy, I love metaphors!

To play devil's advocate, here:

What happens when the bartenders at the 'free-beer' bar leave because the owners can't pay them the wages they're sure to make at a bar that is charging $5 per pint? How then do we gaurantee that the best bartenders aren't exclusive to the bar that charges $5 per pint?

[White Doors]

I can go to the States, poor people can't. That's two-tier. Let's level the playing field.

Adding the cost of the flight, accomodations to the price of your treatment is sometimes unaffordable. Having the clinics in your home city is a big improvement and will open up the accessibility of private clinics to more people.

Mmhmmm. And if they are from outside of the major centres where the private clinics set up shop? They still have to eat the cost of travel and accomodation, as well as treatment.

Private insurance isn't hugely expensive either, if you carried this in Canada, to use at Canadian clinics, it certainly levels the playing field considerably.

Are there any successful models of public/private integration in health?

Yeah, pretty much every country in Europe.

The only reason to be against two-tier health care is ideaology and that's just sad.

[White Doors]

Well it's going to be 2007 soon. So lets bring back this old dog.

Let's not make this more complicated than it has to be. In order to have no waiting times like the US and many other countries, we need to spend a lot more into health care.

I'm suggesting that our Country is not 'rich' enough to be able to fix our health care problems.

For instance, if there is a waiting list of 8 months for a surgery, to cut that in half would require almost double the expendatures in healthcare. That would mean half of all current gov't expendatures would go to healthcare.

A thought might be to create a new Canadian Healthcare Tax (CHT) which would tax Canadians an additional 10% thus raising the additional monies needed.

The problem with that, is people would loose their cars, homes, and businesses would go under. A mess would be created (Bob Rae style).

When are we going to realize the only thing that will offload the burden on our public system is to let the American's come and build private hospitals? There are many income trust loving Canadians who would be more than willing to pay $350 a month for a private healthcare plan. Thus, it would offload the public system and shorten our wait times. It would also give employers the chance to offer healthcare plans to their employees thus further eliminating the clogging of the Canada health system. Thus, it's a win win for everyone involved.

Are we all ready to accept privatized healthcare yet?

I honestly wonder what country you people are living in. Do any of you have first hand knowledge of the health care system? Can you honestly say it is bad?

Do I have first hand knowledge?......pretty much as I have spent the past few years, pretty much since Sept 11, 2001 in hospitals , had a break in Dec 2003 and have been in and out of hospitals and clinics for the past six months.

I see plenty of great things happening in our hospitals and with our doctors , and in conjunction with the rest of the medical community I see it works and works well.

I wont dwell on the details but for a summary. My dad was diagnosed with an aneurysm. His operation was 9-11 (yes..that day)

Double bypass, kidney failure , stroke , heart attacks...you name it he had, and he was 74 yrs old. When they diagnosed a need for a double bypass ...gee it was done in a matter of 4 days.Everyday for 2.5 years I was in a hospital seeing him and meeting Docs and nurses.

As for myself, I am going thru Cancer treatment right now. I have been very pleased with the actions of all involved. I was diagnosed in August after feeling lousy all July.

So, yes I can say with some "first hand knowledge" that our system is one to be damn proud of because it works and works well.

To suggest , even remotely , that the US system is better is ludicrous and misguided. (40M uninsured, expected to rise to 100M in 10 years...hospitals closing in Cali due to strain from illegals) They do have amazing docs in the US, most of the best of the best are there. Good for them , wopuldn't want their E&O expenses, but hey, that is the US ' problem.

Do we need to look at our system and make it better? Of course we do, everything can be improved and our system is no different.

Name me a country with better health care......AND has the geographic expanse we have. We are unique in so many regards with respect to our health care. People want to live in small towns all over this great country and yet they want the best health care provided next door. It cannot work that way.

Of the people that I know personally that whine about the health care system, most of them can be dismissed as pure and simple whiners. Thats right whiners.

So people have to wait for an operation. Get used to it. It would seem obvious to me that the Doctors have consulted and realize that there "may" be others that are in dire need to have something done now, so those that have the luxury of their illness not being acute, must wait.

Perhaps, and it pains me to write, we need to look at what we are doing with respect to our ever growing legions of elderly. I am of the opinion that my dad should NOT have had a double bypass at his age. I did not think he had much time left anyway,unfortunately I was right. Maybe the Docs should have made that call.

So lets look at what we are spending money on and improve that .

But for god sakes, the Health Care in this country is amazing. It could certainly be better, but I am damn proud of our docs and nurses. Especially the nurses.

Nurse, what an amazing group of caring individuals. Not one complaint from me.

Improve it , assist it , put a $20 co-pay......but do not denigrate it.

Well in a two-tiered system you could feel free to keep on using the public system. No one is saying that you can't. We want choice and Health is too important to pander to unions.

[White Doors]

Thank you guyser for your post.

The push behind this 'crisis' comes from individuals and corporations who want to see their taxes reduced so that they can buy private healthcare and pocket the difference.

There has been mismanagement, political grandstanding, but the system costs less than the US system and covers more people. It needs to be fixed, not dismantled. How is it that the system worked well once, and is said to be beyond repair now ? Funding needs to be there, and costs need to be controlled.

I don't think anyone here is callign for the end of public healthcare. Merely that we be abllowed the choice to private care if we want. The Quebec supreme court already agreed with this position.

Why would you feel the need to put limits on choice in healthcare?

[mikedavid00]

I like the free beer example. A bar is giving away free beer. As you would expect the lineup starts to stretch down the street in no time at all. Pretty soon everyone is waiting hours for a free beer. A bar next door opens up and sells beer for $5 a pint. Half the people in line don't have $5 bucks to spare so they stay put...the other half move next door and get a beer in a few minutes.

Some say those rich bastards shouldn't get beer any faster than the rest of us.. I say great my line is now half as long.

Exactly. Plus the Americans opening up hospitals here also improves our economy. My fiance works for a medical supply company and the more hospitals there are, the more employeers her company will need.. and the circle will continue.

As for Guyser, I'm not about to argue with someone going through cancer treatment and who beleives in the system. I hope you get better.