Quebec: A Nation

[geoffrey]

The more I think about Harper's motion recognizing Quebecers as a nation within Canada, the more impressed I am.

You must be more easily impressed than many people.

Western radio talk show hosts fielded call furious with the prime minister for giving away the farm to Quebec.

Getting ready for the return of Sir Preston?

[August1991]

Western radio talk show hosts fielded call furious with the prime minister for giving away the farm to Quebec.

What farm would that be?

And is anyone going to believe that Harper would give away more than Preston Manning?

Between Harper and Manning, who has the reputation for being more shrewd?

[August1991]

If you don't believe me, try your high school French (or google translation) and read Michel Auger in Le Soleil of Quebec City:

Il n’y a pas de pire piège que celui qu’on dessine pour soi-même. Il n’y a pas de peinture qui prend plus de temps à sécher que celle que l’on a utilisé pour se peinturer dans le coin. C’est ce à quoi doit réfléchir le Bloc québécois ce matin.

Ayant présenté une motion sur la reconnaissance du Québec comme nation, le Bloc a eu la surprise de sa vie en voyant le premier ministre Harper lui retourner la question en se disant prêt à reconnaître la nation québécoise au sein d’un Canada uni.

Puis, comme un naufragé qui atteint finalement le canot de sauvetage, le chef libéral Bill Graham a endossé cette motion qui sauve son parti d’un débat aussi inutile que risqué.

Reste M. Duceppe qui, malheureusement pour lui, va agir de façon prévisible : il va voter contre la résolution puisqu’elle ne reconnaît pas que le Québec pourrait être une nation à l’extérieur du Canada. L’argument est aussi sémantique que tiré par les cheveux.

[jdobbin]

What farm would that be?

And is anyone going to believe that Harper would give away more than Preston Manning?

Between Harper and Manning, who has the reputation for being more shrewd?

Preston Manning has been leading the charge that Harper might be giving away the farm. You'll have to ask him what he means. Talk radio is Harper's base. That base was not happy today.

[jdobbin]

Getting ready for the return of Sir Preston?

Preston Manning has been on Harper's ass all this week.

[August1991]

Preston Manning has been leading the charge that Harper might be giving away the farm.

In English-Canada, who has the reputation for being the most shrewd: Manning or Harper?

[jdobbin]

In English-Canada, who has the reputation for being the most shrewd: Manning or Harper?

Who is better liked? Manning or Harper?

[Riverwind]

Who is better liked? Manning or Harper?

Depends on who you ask. Manning may want to try to play the spoiler like he did during Meech Lake. However, a lot as changed since Meech. I am not convinced the the initial outrage will have the same staying power.

[Charles Anthony]

This was not a spur of the moment decision. The motion comes from Harper's often stated views of Canada.

It certainly was not part of the election platform and I do not recall any discussions leading up to it.

It was fast thinking.

It is naive to expect the rest-of-Canadians to understand how this strategy affects the separatists. This is just a chess-match between the Harper government and the separatists -- unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how big you like your government), one which only parliamentarians can truly understand. The rest-of-Canadians will be fixated on getting their farm back. As a result, it will likely back-fire.

[geoffrey]

Ask anyone other than a Quebecois and they'll likely tell you they've just about had enough of Quebec's superior status or their claims to it.

[Charles Anthony]

they've just about had enough of Quebec's superior status or their claims to it.

What exactly does Quebec have over and above any other province?

[August1991]

In English-Canada, who has the reputation for being the most shrewd: Manning or Harper?

Who is better liked? Manning or Harper?

Dobbin, you've answered the question. And I'll add that I prefer truly English Anglo-Saxon words such as "like" and "shrewd" to the French latin words such as "distinct" and "nation". There's a crude honesty to Anglo-Saxon English. "F*ck" is direct. "Da*n" is too nuanced.

Ask anyone other than a Quebecois and they'll likely tell you they've just about had enough of Quebec's superior status or their claims to it.

Are left-handed people superior? No, they're different. That's all.

[jdobbin]

Depends on who you ask. Manning may want to try to play the spoiler like he did during Meech Lake. However, a lot as changed since Meech. I am not convinced the the initial outrage will have the same staying power.

If Harper plays to the west and conservatives, he will put Harper on the defensive.

[geoffrey]

they've just about had enough of Quebec's superior status or their claims to it.

What exactly does Quebec have over and above any other province?

Recognition that they are a nation outside of the normal Canadian culture. Language is a large part of culture, no doubt, but like I've said Montreal and Toronto are alot closer in culture than Toronto and Calgary, especially in regards to social views and norms.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, you've answered the question. And I'll add that I prefer truly English Anglo-Saxon words such as "like" and "shrewd" to the French latin words such as "distinct" and "nation". There's a crude honesty to Anglo-Saxon English. "F*ck" is direct. "Da*n" is too nuanced.

I've watched Manning more and more stake out a position that pushes Harper more conservative and less towards recognizing Quebec if it means special status. You can be sure he will be on the look out for anything that might reveal Harper going against the base.

[geoffrey]

Ask anyone other than a Quebecois and they'll likely tell you they've just about had enough of Quebec's superior status or their claims to it.

Are left-handed people superior? No, they're different. That's all.

But we don't have to stand on our head to "protect the interests" of the left-hand minority.

Acknowledgment of Quebec's individuality is taking Trudeauism to an extreme, despite Mr. Trudeau's likely opposition to what Harper has said. This 'cultural mosiac' is about the biggest failure, it's created fractured communites and cities and tension between groups. Creating a defined cultural mosiac on the largest scale yet is surely to be met with the same apprehension and tension as the 'defined' Lebanese or Muslim communties, for example, within some Canadian cities

[blueblood]

I disagree yet again. There are two other provinces in Canada with plenty of oil, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland. Newfoundland has a much much much better market than we do as well.

Yet they are poor, and we are not. What's the diff?

Newfoundland's oil industry is much younger than Alberta's and, unlike Alberta's, is based at sea. Land based oil extends benefits to citizens more readily that sea-based. Newfoundland is starting to benefit from its oil industry they will get richer as a result.

Saskatchewan's oil industry will vault Saskatchewan to "have" province by the next evaluation. The province is doing much better but having said that, their economy is not a diverse as Alberta's. I don't think that means they are dirt poor though.

Saskatchewan also has a lot of skids that don't pay taxes and live below the poverty line living on social assistance, they'll need to fix that before they'll be as good as Alberta

[blueblood]

Ask anyone other than a Quebecois and they'll likely tell you they've just about had enough of Quebec's superior status or their claims to it.

Are left-handed people superior? No, they're different. That's all.

But we don't have to stand on our head to "protect the interests" of the left-hand minority.

Acknowledgment of Quebec's individuality is taking Trudeauism to an extreme, despite Mr. Trudeau's likely opposition to what Harper has said. This 'cultural mosiac' is about the biggest failure, it's created fractured communites and cities and tension between groups. Creating a defined cultural mosiac on the largest scale yet is surely to be met with the same apprehension and tension as the 'defined' Lebanese or Muslim communties, for example, within some Canadian cities

It's too bad Quebec is like that, they have such great Hydro potential and could soak the states for it, but they'd rather spend their money on culture and their as you would put it "Socialist Paradise" apparently investing isn't their strong point.

[August1991]

It's too bad Quebec is like that, they have such great Hydro potential and could soak the states for it, but they'd rather spend their money on culture and their as you would put it "Socialist Paradise" apparently investing isn't their strong point.

Harper has done this very well in Quebec. He has provoked a genuine debate.

People in Quebec also wonder how best to do what they are doing.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Andrew Coyne and others seem to believe that Harper has given away something in the long run. What exactly?

If Harper hasn't actually 'given away anything', then how could French-Canadians be happy receiving nothing? Is this more of a case like a man and a mistress, with the man finally saying (after many years of cajoling), "I love you", and the mistress saying, "See, that wasn't so hard, but what took you so long?"

[Mad_Michael]

This shows how insecure some people in some provinces are. Alberta is screaming on one side, Quebec on another, NFLD on third, everyone complaining about not getting enough attention like little kids. The only province where nobody complains about ROC is Ontario. Because Ontarians are secure enough to not whine about not getting enough attention. Nobody in Ontario is looking down on you, but you think they are because they don't talk about you all the time. Well, Ontario provides the big chuck of equalization payments to other provinces. We give money to Atlantic Canada, to Quebec, etc. and what we get in return is hate because we don't give enough. Ontarians are arrogant, Ontarians are this and that. Well, that's very kind of you. Now I feel that we should cut off all financial support to ROC and leave you alone with your hate.

Your going to need us to support your economy very shortly. We're already preventing widespread social assistance demand in your province by providing jobs to those fleeing your failing economy.

1. Hey, check out the data in that there gun registry... more guns in Ontario than anywhere else...

Not per capita. When you have 3x the population, you expect to have at least as many guns as the much smaller Alberta.

2. General direction of Government? You've got to be kidding.... lets see... present Prime Minister is from Alberta, last three from Quebec (not counting blips like Graham or Campbell), and before that it was another Quebecer and another Albertan. Toronto rules eh? Give me a break.

Martin wasn't from Quebec.... he was born in Windsor, raised between there and Ottawa and went to university at St. Michael's and the U of T. At least get your facts right.

3. Wheat board? You're talking about less than 1% of our fucking GDP! Exporting automobiles is where the money and the jobs are, not farming.

Your kidding right? Do you know how many jobs Ontario lost last month... and the month before. Exporting oil is where the money and jobs are. Ontario is a fading star. It's industry was artifically sustained for too long, and now it's in collapse.

5. The manufacturing base of Ontario is entirely 'private sector' (and 'British-American' in origin. It is private capital. You can't just order it around. And the Federal Government has very little control over this. Ontario has a strong manufacturing economy because a) we work hard for it and we are very well located to service the US market. Ontario is entirely dependent upon the US market for export of manufacturing and services (primarily, automobiles and financial services).

You actually have a very weak economy right now.

6. The Federal government has no power to compel private companies to move to other locations. Private corporations may situate themselves where they see fit. It is call a 'free market'. Our government is not a socialist planning state.

That's why head office migration is moving to the much more economically competitive Alberta.

7. Toronto is a net contributor of about $10-12 billion a year to the 'Rest of Canada' - of which every Province, save Ontario & Alberta, is presently a net recipient of net Federal taxes and spending.

Correct. Let's cut them off and help ourselves out. Alberta and Ontario could be a good team, if they accepted their difference and lost their selfish pride.

8. The Federal Government screws Toronto more often than any other region in Canada in the bias of their policies and programs. Fair enough, Toronto is rich and can afford to help pay for our provincial cousins. Do you hear me bitching? I pay those taxes.

Wrong. Per capita Albertans pay so much more than Ontarians it's not even funny. 4 times as much.

Doesn't look like the quality of the posting at this site has improved much since I was last here.

Alberta chest-thumping is tolerable if it is honest. Making shit up to make yourself feel important is silly.

I'll return to my regular forums for serious discussion of Canadian politics.

Bye (again).

[Riverwind]

If Harper hasn't actually 'given away anything', then how could French-Canadians be happy receiving nothing?

Perhaps it depends on what the meaning of 'nothing' is. I suspect most federalist supporters of the move equate 'Quebecois' with 'French-Canadian'. However, I am sure most separatists equate 'Quebecois' with a resident of Quebec. The fundemental incompatibility between these definitions will come back to haunt us.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Riverwind,

I suspect most federalist supporters of the move equate 'Quebecois' with 'French-Canadian'. However, I am sure most separatists equate 'Quebecois' with a resident of Quebec.

Yes, and perhaps my words were poorly chosen. However,

The fundemental incompatibility between these definitions will come back to haunt us.

will Quebec (as a 'nation within Canada') become like Israel, asking 'French-Canadians' to 'make aliyah' and return to their homeland?

[scribblet]

Doesn't look like the quality of the posting at this site has improved much since I was last here.

Alberta chest-thumping is tolerable if it is honest. Making shit up to make yourself feel important is silly.

I'll return to my regular forums for serious discussion of Canadian politics.

Bye (again).

Bye, don't slam the door.

[geoffrey]

Doesn't look like the quality of the posting at this site has improved much since I was last here.

Alberta chest-thumping is tolerable if it is honest. Making shit up to make yourself feel important is silly.

I'll return to my regular forums for serious discussion of Canadian politics.

Bye (again).

Bye, don't slam the door.

No kidding, you refute someone's points with facts and he goes off in a huff. Halarious.