Paul Martin

[Mimas]

Here is what I don't get.

Paul Martin implemented all the cuts in spending and services Mulroney promised but didn't implement and more. Martin aggressively cut the budget and provided some of the biggest tax cuts in Canadian history. He paid down the debt. He brought Canada back from the brink of bankruptcy, where Mulroney put it. Under Martin, Canada went from being "an honorary member of the third world" to being one of the few nations turning up surpluses and having its finances in great shape. Martin was the embodiment of "fiscal responsibility". He did what every conservative claims to want - cut spending, give big tax cuts, pay down the debt. Martin was a conservative dressed up in red clothes.

Given that, why are Cons so hateful of Martin? As far as I can tell, he should be praised as the best in conservative policy. Instead, he's been called the worst things available in the English language. So why do you hate him?

[scribblet]

I didn't know convicts hated Paul Martin, I don't, I kinda feel sorry for him. After all his political dealings to get rid of Chretien and be the PM, he was a big disappointment, he looked more like a windmill flapping around in a breeze.

[jefferiah]

I think there are a lot of people who would disagree with you. I have heard many people say that Mulroney initiated the climb out of the debt with the GST, but the changes did not take affect until after his career in office. Could the liberals be taking credit for Mulroney's work?

[jefferiah]

You cant always judge a leader by the situation of the country while that leader is in power. Mulroney inherited the legacy of the Liberals who came before him, while Chretien and Martin inherited the legacy of the PC Mulroney government.

[kimmy]

I'm not even much of a conservative, but I'll take a stab at this one.

Small-c conservatives respect what Paul Martin Jr was able to accomplish as Finance Minister. However, he's also remembered as the ideal example of the "Peter Principle" in action. That's where you excel in your job and are promoted until you reach a level that's above your competence, and that's where you stay.

Sadly, he will most be remembered for his attempts to clean up a mess that wasn't even his fault. He'll also be remembered for failing to live up to any of his bold promises about "the democratic deficit" or "western alienation" or accountability or whistleblower protection or ... pretty much anything, aside from gay weddings at least.

Great finance minister, though.

-k

[scribblet]

Martin is responsible for cutting back the transfer payments to the tune of 6.3 billion and cutting EI benefits while raising premiums. His surplus was achieved on the back of the taxpayers and left the health care system hugely underfunded. One of the major issues Mike Harris had to contend with, but later on managed to increase Ontario funding.

I agree with Kimmy, I expected more from him as PM, a definite example of the Peter Principle.

[Mimas]

Martin is responsible for cutting back the transfer payments to the tune of 6.3 billion and cutting EI benefits while raising premiums. His surplus was achieved on the back of the taxpayers and left the health care system hugely underfunded. One of the major issues Mike Harris had to contend with, but later on managed to increase Ontario funding.

I agree with Kimmy, I expected more from him as PM, a definite example of the Peter Principle.

Well, you can't increase spending, cut taxes and pay down the debt at the same time. If he hadn't cut transfer payments and health-care spending, he would not have been able to offer as much tax cuts. He did the best he could given that we live in the real world and he was not a magician. I can hardly imagine that anyone would have done better/

Mike Harris barely balanced the budget for a couple of years. And those balanced budgets were heavily funded by selling off public assets. The rest of the time, including when he left, he had deficits. That's despite the fact that he had as much of an opportunity to turn up surpluses as Martin did. IMO Mike was the embodiment of "fiscal irresponsibility", yet many Conservatives look up to him as some sort of an idol.

[Leafless]

I'm not even much of a conservative, but I'll take a stab at this one.

Small-c conservatives respect what Paul Martin Jr was able to accomplish as Finance Minister. However, he's also remembered as the ideal example of the "Peter Principle" in action. That's where you excel in your job and are promoted until you reach a level that's above your competence, and that's where you stay.

Sadly, he will most be remembered for his attempts to clean up a mess that wasn't even his fault. He'll also be remembered for failing to live up to any of his bold promises about "the democratic deficit" or "western alienation" or accountability or whistleblower protection or ... pretty much anything, aside from gay weddings at least.

Great finance minister, though.

-k

You describe Paul Martin as a great finance minister.

Kindly explain how he 'accomplished balancing the books'.

Kimmy on the barbecue?

[Canadian Blue]

Paul Martin failed when he wasn't able to deliver. People imagined that he would be able to united all Canadian's, the Bloc would fall, and Canada would be more united with Martin at the helm. In the end Martin made very few changes to the "Democratic deficit", and also talked about getting rid of the Notwithstanding Clause in the constitution.

If Martin had followed through with his original plans, he may have been very successful. However in the end he failed to do anything that could resonate with Canadian's.

[Topaz]

I could agree with everyone of you in what you've said. Today, Harper is PM and he's alot better off than the than the past PM's. Let see what he does for the time he's is in the PM's chair. I feel that he may get over his head in the debt, with buying up military equipment and fighting a war and trying to cut taxes and reducing the debt or trying to keep it from going into the red. I hear they are taking in an extra 5 Billion in taxes a year, so there is no excuse to run up the debt further.

[apollo19]

I think what got to Martin was not that he didn't have good ideas, it was that his supporters in the party, after doing the work to push out Chretien, felt they were owed something. One look at Martin's cabinet shows this, with all these ranks of "Minister of State" and just bloat in general. I think if Martin had listened to himself instead of his advisors whispering about polls and such to him, he would have done very well... possibly winning the "record" majority that was talked about before the sponsorship mess.

[scribblet]

Further to my post about changes done to EI and transfer payments,; Martin also changed the accounting practices, such that the huge EI surplus flowed into General Revenues to be used for other purposes. So one could indeed accurately say that he balanced the books on the backs of the taxpayers and the provinces.

[White Doors]

Paul Martin - Right finance minister at the right time.

A TERRIBLE leader and therefore PM however.

PS, you shouldn't generalize so much.

[hiti]

All government money is from taxpayers, so if the government balances their books, it is taxpayers money they must use.

As for the EI, Martin also lowered the rates three times and had more plans for lowering EI to only collect what was needed in a year.

What has Haper's "new" government done about EI? Nothing.

As a PM Martin lowered my income taxes and helped millions to have more money to pay for the necessities of living. In 2005 I saved almost $400 on my tax bill which was money in my pocket. Then Harpo get elected and takes that money back but tells me that he is cutting the GST and I have to spend $40,000 in order to save $400.

What a crock.

[geoffrey]

As a PM Martin lowered my income taxes and helped millions to have more money to pay for the necessities of living. In 2005 I saved almost $400 on my tax bill which was money in my pocket. Then Harpo get elected and takes that money back but tells me that he is cutting the GST and I have to spend $40,000 in order to save $400.

Hmm... your wrong, that tax cut from Martin couldn't have saved you $400. Try again with the numbers, the most anyone saved was $276.74.

But anyways, that's besides the point. Harper could have left the tax cuts in place, his revenues went up 10% this year from personal income tax. Are we to expect a 10% cut next year to keep them revenue netural? I would expect so, the most income tax should go up is inflation... 10% is far above that.