Conservatives vs. liberals.

[Ricki Bobbi]

John Ibbitson said it best in today's column. (Sorry no link, firewall...)

"There are a lot of people in this country afflicted with a visceral, collective loathing of Mr. Harper, Western Canadian conservatives, American conservatives and George W. Bush, despite their many differences. They are, in essence, the reverse image of liberal-hating, flag-waving, God Blessers who support both men, come what may. There is no point in conversing with such people, on either side."

Do I support both men? No. Have I ever supported Bush on MLW? No.

Am I, and fellow CPC supporters on this board, automatically linked to Bush by those posters filled with a visceral, collective loathing of Mr. Harper, Western Canadian conservatives, American conservatives and George W. Bush, despite their many differences? Yes.

There really isn't room for debate on this board. The bashing is knee-jerk and automatic because of the loathing. Which leads to knee-jerk defences. The times that I have criticized the Government or the PM have been used by those here who loathe Harper as evidence to further their agendas. It isn't respectful, constructive or a real debate.

I don't feel good about having fallen into the trap of automatically defending the Prime Minister from attacks.

Ibbitson is right. There is no point in having these converations.

Congrats to those here who loathe Harper. May your victory here be as pyrrhic as it was in winning Led Namont the Democratic Senatorial nomination in Connecticut.

[August1991]

There really isn't room for debate on this board.

I disagree.

There are some very partisan posters on this board. It is worth debating with them because you understand a point of view. There are also some non-partisan posters here.

IME, the partisan posters don't stay long. They are either get bored or get banned.

Incidentally, Harper doesn't have to get 100% of the votes to win. He only needs about 4 of 10 to form a majority. There are many Canadians who loathe Harper and would never vote for him. So what. He's not trying to get their votes.

[Black Dog]

Some posters, if I may mix my metaphors, get on a high horse and beat it long after its dead. Here in federal politics, the main subject is "Boy, that clown Harper has done it again. What a stupid clown." Over in the international politics (and even "religious issues") it's the same thing: "Aren't Muslims horrible? Look at how horrible Muslims are!"

The problem isn't a left/right thing, or a lack of diversity of thought. The problem is a lack of any thought at all. So you hate Harper/Muslims: BFD. Do you have any insight to share, anything new and enlightening that will enrich our lives or make us think? No? Okay, how about something clever? No? Well, then, I have some advice for you!

I don't feel good about having fallen into the trap of automatically defending the Prime Minister from attacks.

You know what? There's an old discussion board maxim that goes "Don't feed the troll." If you're feeding trolls, then you're part of the problem. And I gotta say, Rickster, that as tedious as I find certain posters' obsession with all things Harper, your knee-jerk responses make the whole thing look like a bad vaudeville routine.

[Ricki Bobbi]

You know what? There's an old discussion board maxim that goes "Don't feed the troll." If you're feeding trolls, then you're part of the problem. And I gotta say, Rickster, that as tedious as I find certain posters' obsession with all things Harper, your knee-jerk responses make the whole thing look like a bad vaudeville routine.

Fair enough. When I first got here I was a lot more open to debate with my posts than I am now. My changing tactics was in response to those posters.

I started this thread to move away from that. If people want to debate, that is fine. But there is very little actual debate here.

When there isn't somebody taking on those who loathe Harper what will this board degenerate to? Guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Black Dog]

When there isn't somebody taking on those who loathe Harper what will this board degenerate to?

A board with a whole bunch of one post threads that quickly drop from view? Meh. Big deal.

[Canadian Blue]

Or for that matter the 20+ posts on the exact same topic.

[Ricki Bobbi]

So not much will change.

Odd how the Harper loathers have no comment on the issue.

[Shakeyhands]

So not much will change.

Odd how the Harper loathers have no comment on the issue.

You complain about it, then turn right around and make it con vs lib.... Greg was right, you are a troll.

[jdobbin]

I assessed the Conservatives as a B+ a few weeks ago. I still think they are doing about a B job.

I have repeated several times that Afghanistan was going to be a problem no matter who was in power: Liberal or Conservative. People here kept telling me that the mission had majority support across Canada but I said that support was very conditional according to most polls.

Surprisingly, the environment has jumped up in voter polling. I don't think this is solely media driven. People's conceptions have been influenced by what they can see, hear, feel and experience. That might be a dying lake such as Lake Winnipeg, ice free conditions in the north, smog in Alberta, polluted waters off B.C., low fish count in the Atlantic.

Harper put together the clean air act. In a minority government, he probably needs a full parliament's support. I don't know that he will get that Layton but if they do come up with a plan for the environment, will the Conservatives support it?

Quebec. It is an issue because Harper will have to find a way to reach out more to this province without hindering his support in Alberta. Unfortunately, that might mean dropping policies that Albertan support but Quebecers don't.

Categorizing any commentary of government policy as Harper hating is not helpful.

[August1991]

Surprisingly, the environment has jumped up in voter polling. I don't think this is solely media driven. People's conceptions have been influenced by what they can see, hear, feel and experience. That might be a dying lake such as Lake Winnipeg, ice free conditions in the north, smog in Alberta, polluted waters off B.C., low fish count in the Atlantic.

I agree that the environment will be an issue in the next election and I also agree that it's not media driven. Furthermore, I think this is more of an issue in Quebec than elsewhere in Canada. (There's some hypocrisy in Quebec on the environment. Quebecers know that hydro is a "clean" energy source and so they can easily favour pollution measures.)

I also think the Tories have dropped the ball on the environment and on gun control. That's surprising because these are two issues where the Tories should do very well.

----

Returning back to the OP, Dobbin is a 'partisan' Liberal (despite protestations to the contrary). I'm about as 'partisan' Conservative. But we can conduct civilized debates here.

BD above implied that there is a constant theme in the different categories. (Harper the Clown, Medieval Muslims... ) I don't entirely agree. The debates are varied and often there are debates that split opinions widely.

Some posters view discussion as scoring points in a game. Sometimes it is. More often though, what goes around, comes around. The best threads are competitive debates where it's not clear where the discussion will lead.

One feature above civilized debate is the style of debate. BD's pose of irritated non-chalance is hard to beat. It always breaks me up. Take this example: "And I gotta say, Rickster, that as tedious as I find certain posters' obsession with all things Harper, your knee-jerk responses make the whole thing look like a bad vaudeville routine." Ya gotta crack a smile at that one.

[jdobbin]

I agree that the environment will be an issue in the next election and I also agree that it's not media driven. Furthermore, I think this is more of an issue in Quebec than elsewhere in Canada. (There's some hypocrisy in Quebec on the environment. Quebecers know that hydro is a "clean" energy source and so they can easily favour pollution measures.)

I also think the Tories have dropped the ball on the environment and on gun control. That's surprising because these are two issues where the Tories should do very well.

----

Returning back to the OP, Dobbin is a 'partisan' Liberal (despite protestations to the contrary). I'm about as 'partisan' Conservative. But we can conduct civilized debates here.

I never claimed to be non-partisan. I don't support Stephen Harper but I don't hate the man. At the moment, I don't have anyone I support as Liberal leader. My political leanings are more centrist than NDP polices are so I don't the party or their leader.

I have disagreed with many Liberal policies in the past and have said so here. Unfortunately for Harper, he has inherited a few problem policies from the Liberal party such as the gun registry, the environment, same sex marriage and Afghanistan. Harper is going to have to find to deal with these areas, accept them as they are or make changes that will make them better policies.

The secretive nature of both Liberal and now Conservative governments means that Canadians have a hard time knowing what to think of certain government policies or the people behind them.

Meanwhile, Canadians are probably getting a little tired of the name calling left or right. I think though that the name calling done from the government benches hurts more. Negative campaigning didn't help the Liberals. It isn't helping the Conservatives. Stronach, for example, is not a leading Liberal candidate and yet the Tories have her targeted for continuous abuse. It goes beyond partisanship.

[Wilber]

Fair enough. When I first got here I was a lot more open to debate with my posts than I am now. My changing tactics was in response to those posters.

Everyone on this forum has their own way of looking at things and although I may not like to admit it at times, I must say that some of the issues raised by those with whom I basically differ has affected the way I perceive some things. My only problem is with those who's agenda is relentlessly unchanging. I soon get so I can't be bothered with them even though there may be some good stuff mixed in with the dogma.