Does a Jewish Conspiracy Really Exist?

Black Dog · November 24, 2006

No problem. Is it signifigant what religion jbg is?

Yes, because it seems whenever some goyim makes a remark about the "jewish lobby" they are denounced as anti-semites, so its significant, IMV, for a Jew to admit such a thing exists.

And between you and me Blackdog and Gerry I know what you are getting at, what I am getting at is I don't like lobby groups labelled as "Jewish" when what we really mean is pro-Israeli. I am sure you get my point. I do not think for a moment Gerry was being deliberately unfair. It is just a point I am making

I understand completely. But by the same token, saying there's a Jewish lobby and that lobby has influence is not the same as invoking the anti-semetic tropes about secret cabals of Jews running everything. Again, I understand why you'd be leery, but you have to consider that someone can be approaching the subject in good faith.

And yeah, there's a difference between pro israel lobbies and Jewish lobbies, but you surely must agree that the interests often overlap (as a quick visist to the web site of a group like the CJC will show.)

jbg · November 28, 2006

At no time Blackdog have I ever referred to let alone boasted about the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. You are completely wrong but I won't go running to the moderator with my noise out of joint, just laugh.

I never said you did, dude. I was talking about jbg.

I have never complained to the moderator about you. Should I? And, for the record, I am not (yet) a member of AIPAC.

jefferiah · November 28, 2006

The US has ties to lots of groups. Arab ones as well. Do muslims have a conspiracy? Do atheists have a conspiracy? You will find that individual members of all these groups often share similar goals and support similar political agendas.

jefferiah · November 28, 2006

The only thing Jews "conspire" (which is the wrong word I think since "conspire" usually indicates something criminal) to is to have a little piece of land called home and live there peacefully. Now there is sufficient evidence and even public statements among many muslim clerics about a conspiracy of their own. Europe is mentioned. The world. Taking back Spain.

ft.niagara · November 30, 2006

The only thing Jews "conspire" (which is the wrong word I think since "conspire" usually indicates something criminal) to is to have a little piece of land called home and live there peacefully. Now there is sufficient evidence and even public statements among many muslim clerics about a conspiracy of their own. Europe is mentioned. The world. Taking back Spain.

The problem is the Jews can not mantain their little strip of land without a guarantee by other countries. Fact, the Jewish people gained the land through some purchase, some terrorism, and some military actions. Fact, Islim forbids the conversion of a Moslim to another religion. Penelty is death. Fact, Islim also forbids the removal of terrority from Moslim control to another religion control. Fact, the west, including Canada is involved in a 21 century crusade, and you know what happened the last time there was a crusade. It only took about 200 years for that land to be reclaimed. So far, it has only been about sixty. In about another hundred and fifty, maybe sooner, good bye Israel.

jefferiah · November 30, 2006

Israel will stand my friend.

ft.niagara · December 1, 2006

Israel will stand my friend.

Jefferiah, I agree. The land will always be there. However, who controls it has changed numberous times over the centuries. Islim is a crazy religion, with alot of inbred crazy thoughts. Time is on their side. Birthrate. Nuclear weapons. Suicide bombers.

jbg · December 2, 2006

The problem is the Jews can not mantain their little strip of land without a guarantee by other countries. Fact, the Jewish people gained the land through some purchase, some terrorism, and some military actions. Fact, Islim forbids the conversion of a Moslim to another religion. Penelty is death. Fact, Islim also forbids the removal of terrority from Moslim control to another religion control. Fact, the west, including Canada is involved in a 21 century crusade, and you know what happened the last time there was a crusade. It only took about 200 years for that land to be reclaimed. So far, it has only been about sixty. In about another hundred and fifty, maybe sooner, good bye Israel.

Jefferiah, I agree. The land will always be there. However, who controls it has changed numberous times over the centuries. Islim is a crazy religion, with alot of inbred crazy thoughts. Time is on their side. Birthrate. Nuclear weapons. Suicide bombers.

Anyone who thinks that Islam's interest begins and ends with the land controlled by the State of Israel is sadly mistaken. By you logic, everyone in the West is doomed.

My view is that while we hold the military and technological upper hand, it is time to smash the military power of Islam. The world does not have to be plunged back into the 9th Century.

ft.niagara · December 2, 2006

Anyone who thinks that Islam's interest begins and ends with the land controlled by the State of Israel is sadly mistaken. By you logic, everyone in the West is doomed.
My view is that while we hold the military and technological upper hand, it is time to smash the military power of Islam. The world does not have to be plunged back into the 9th Century.

It is not the time to smash anything. The US has been neutered for another ten or twenty years by Iraq. By then who knows what will have happened. As far as Israel, there are spheres of influence. Call them circles. We have ours, China and Japan have theirs, Europe has theirs, and Iran and Syria have theirs. That circle includes Israel. We tried to help Israel by taking Iraq. Sorry, those crazy Moslims didn't cooperate. Israel is close to being on its own. As I said elsewhere, no Moslim can convert. no Moslim controled land can convert. They are still fighting the crusades, and they love to retell the story of their eventual victories. They are reliving a dream. And yes, they would love to take over the world, but it is a bit bigger than Israel. They will be happy to start there.

Rue · December 3, 2006

I don't think Israel is powerful because it has superior military technology. I don't think one is synonomous with the other. I think there is tremendous power that comes from religious fundamentalism and the kind of power that fuels terrorism which can easily neutralize conventional military technology.

I do not see Israel as the top dog in the Middle East conflict and I have never viewed it as the top-dog.

I believe the sheer numbers of Muslim births is the most powerful equation in the conflict.

I also believe that both sides are powerless over the most key and central issue in the Middle East which everyone never understands or is oblivious to and that is fresh WATER and access to it.

Access to fresh water is the key to survival.

uOttawaMan · December 3, 2006

Good luck trying to quash a massive religion.

ft.niagara · December 3, 2006

Good luck trying to quash a massive religion.

What religion?

uOttawaMan · December 3, 2006

Good luck trying to quash a massive religion.

What religion?

Any major religion.

normanchateau · December 4, 2006

Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel

Do you have evidence for this generalization?

ft.niagara · December 4, 2006

Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel

Do you have evidence for this generalization?

Observation. Jbg is a Jewish liberal, yet he is a hawk when it comes to Israel, and most Jews probably are. Most Jews are liberal, example Streisand, and most liberals are against a strong military, example Clinton. Even jbg would probably agree with the generalization, and has agreed, to his dismay, that most Jews vote Democrat (because they are liberal) even though the Republicans are stronger supporters of Israel (his favorite issue).

normanchateau · December 4, 2006

There is a Jewish lobby in North America with a pro-Israel agenda.

There is a Christian lobby in North America with a pro-Israel agenda. Why single out Jews? Do you have evidence that more Jews than Christians are lobbyists for Israel?

The quote below is from the following link:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4960.htm

"During the past two or three decades, the conservative Evangelical movement has been the fastest growing sector within the American Christian churches. Estimates of the number of evangelicals range from 100-130 million, out of which 20-25 percent could be classified as fundamentalist some 20-26 million Americans. Of the fundamentalists, most, but not all, are inclined to support the Christian Zionist position. A recent poll by the Pew Research Center noted that 58 percent of evangelicals believe in the Battle of Armageddon, an indicator that they would be predisposed to Christian Zionism. Today, Christian Zionists form the largest base of support for pro-Israeli interests in the US. Working since the late 1970s, the pro-Israel lobby has mobilized both economic and political support for Israel among fundamentalists."

Given the relatively small number of Jews in North America, they are easily outnumbered by Christian Zionists.

Furthermore, references to a " pro-Israel Jewish lobby" unfairly stereotypes Jews by implying that all Jews are Zionists.

In fact, many devout Orthodox Jews are anti-Zionists, e.g.,

http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm

normanchateau · December 4, 2006

Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel

Do you have evidence for this generalization?

most Jews vote Democrat (because they are liberal) even though the Republicans are stronger supporters of Israel.

If I follow your statement to its logical conclusion, you're saying that most Jews are more liberal than they are pro-Israel. Otherwise, they'd vote Republican.

And there are numerous reasons, other than being pro- or antimilitary, why one might vote Republican versus Democrat.

Sorry but I hardly view that as scientific evidence that "Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel". To me evidence is numbers , percentages, statistics, etc.

jbg · December 4, 2006

Observation. Jbg is a Jewish liberal, yet he is a hawk when it comes to Israel, and most Jews probably are. Most Jews are liberal, example Streisand, and most liberals are against a strong military, example Clinton. Even jbg would probably agree with the generalization, and has agreed, to his dismay, that most Jews vote Democrat (because they are liberal) even though the Republicans are stronger supporters of Israel (his favorite issue).

I am complimented that this thread has come to focus on me, though I did not even start the thread.

I am more hawkish than most Jews on most issues (examples are North Korea and Cuba), even though obviously I do support Israel strongly. And I do take what I consider to be progressive positions on all issues, including military issues. I do not see any set of facts under which the various Arab governments and non-governmental terrorist groups can be viewed as any kind of force for progress. They are a force for dismantly progress painstakingly made by others, especially Christians and Jews.

I agree that Jews tend to vote Democratic in the US, Liberal in Canada, because of the pattern of the other parties in each case, back in the days of immigration, to "shut out" Jews. Wihle Democrats were lining the docks at Ellis Island (New York City area) and guiding Jews through English language instruction, obtaining apartments and jobs (and not so incidentally voter registration) Republicans were fretting about the threat to American identity posed by immigrants. Not smart politics given that over 1 million per year were coming in in those days.

That should explain the Jews' historical ties to parties historically taking progressive positions. Hopefully, that will not survive these parties' reactionary politics and policies.

ft.niagara · December 4, 2006

Sorry but I hardly view that as scientific evidence that "Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel". To me evidence is numbers , percentages, statistics, etc.

Life is not a series of statistics. Even court evidence is not numbers, percentages, statistics, etc. Even statistics can be biased depending on who puts them together, and their polling methods. In the age of google searches, your idea of a discussion I guess is a series of google quiries. Kind of funny if you think about it. Gimme a link, LOL. Go have a conversation with your computer.

normanchateau · December 5, 2006

Sorry but I hardly view that as scientific evidence that "Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel". To me evidence is numbers , percentages, statistics, etc.

Life is not a series of statistics. Even court evidence is not numbers, percentages, statistics, etc. Even statistics can be biased depending on who puts them together, and their polling methods. In the age of google searches, your idea of a discussion I guess is a series of google quiries. Kind of funny if you think about it. Gimme a link, LOL. Go have a conversation with your computer.

In other words, you have no evidence other than your preconceived stereotypes of Jews.

PolyNewbie · December 5, 2006

Wilbur:It's not a secret society, it has a very informative website that describes very well how it operates.

Really ? How much money did they make last year ? How much went to the CFR ? What is the CFR doing ?

How come they get all these tax writeoffs for the foundations - why shouldn't the American people have access to what they are doing in these foundations ? - since they are using what should be tax dollars to fund them.

CFR stands for Council On Foreign Relations and its existence used to be written off as another conspiracy until people woke up to the fact that it has a big building and a street addess in New York.

It was founded by David Rockefeller as all these other secret foundations being used to dismantle the USA and other Western countries.

ft.niagara · December 6, 2006

Sorry but I hardly view that as scientific evidence that "Most Jews are antimilitary except when it comes to Israel". To me evidence is numbers , percentages, statistics, etc.

Life is not a series of statistics. Even court evidence is not numbers, percentages, statistics, etc. Even statistics can be biased depending on who puts them together, and their polling methods. In the age of google searches, your idea of a discussion I guess is a series of google quiries. Kind of funny if you think about it. Gimme a link, LOL. Go have a conversation with your computer.

In other words, you have no evidence other than your preconceived stereotypes of Jews.

Look at post 118. Basicly, it agrees with my views (steriotypes). It is written by an 'expert witness' jbg. There is my evidence.

jbg · December 7, 2006

Look at post 118. Basicly, it agrees with my views (steriotypes). It is written by an 'expert witness' jbg. There is my evidence.

Excuse me!!! I voted for Bush in 2004 (though not in 2000) and Reagan in 1984 (though not in 1980). What in G-d's name are you talking about?

ft.niagara · December 7, 2006

Excuse me!!! I voted for Bush in 2004 (though not in 2000) and Reagan in 1984 (though not in 1980). What in G-d's name are you talking about?

G-d's name. You are a lawyer, but I will spell it out.

"Observation. Jbg is a Jewish liberal, yet he is a hawk when it comes to Israel, and most Jews probably are. Most Jews are liberal, example Streisand, and most liberals are against a strong military, example Clinton. Even jbg would probably agree with the generalization, and has agreed, to his dismay, that most Jews vote Democrat (because they are liberal) even though the Republicans are stronger supporters of Israel (his favorite issue)." ft.niagara

"I am more hawkish than most Jews on most issues (examples are North Korea and Cuba), even though obviously I do support Israel strongly. And I do take what I consider to be progressive positions on all issues, including military issues. I do not see any set of facts under which the various Arab governments and non-governmental terrorist groups can be viewed as any kind of force for progress. They are a force for dismantly progress painstakingly made by others, especially Christians and Jews.

I agree that Jews tend to vote Democratic in the US, Liberal in Canada, because of the pattern of the other parties in each case, back in the days of immigration, to "shut out" Jews. Wihle Democrats were lining the docks at Ellis Island (New York City area) and guiding Jews through English language instruction, obtaining apartments and jobs (and not so incidentally voter registration) Republicans were fretting about the threat to American identity posed by immigrants. Not smart politics given that over 1 million per year were coming in in those days.

That should explain the Jews' historical ties to parties historically taking progressive positions. Hopefully, that will not survive these parties' reactionary politics and policies." jbg

Using You as a typical Jew, expressing your positions.

Most Jews are doves except when it comes to Israel. You are "more hawkish than most Jews", means most Jews are doves. Your support for Israel is in line with most Jews.

Progressive (liberal) positions is in line with most Jews. "Including military", means you are not in line with most Jews leaning toward a strong military. A progressive position would mean weak military.

You then explain why you think most Jews are Democrat, but then you express hope that Jewish support will not continue to blindly follow the Democratic Party's "reactionary politics and policies", because as I said the Republicans are stronger supporters of Israel (your favorite topic).

Further, my "observation" was not about your voting record, but about the Jewish people's voting record, and positions. My opinions are only confirmed by what you have said in your postings, not formed by them. They were formed long ago.

jbg · December 7, 2006

Excuse me!!! I voted for Bush in 2004 (though not in 2000) and Reagan in 1984 (though not in 1980). What in G-d's name are you talking about?

G-d's name. You are a lawyer, but I will spell it out.

******

"I am more hawkish than most Jews on most issues (examples are North Korea and Cuba), even though obviously I do support Israel strongly. And I do take what I consider to be progressive positions on all issues, including military issues. I do not see any set of facts under which the various Arab governments and non-governmental terrorist groups can be viewed as any kind of force for progress. They are a force for dismantly progress painstakingly made by others, especially Christians and Jews.

As for spelling, spelling out "G-d" is a sacrilige. See Ten Commandments.

My point otherwise is that Jews' positions are not monolithic and mine, for one, differ. And where do you come to the conclusion that Israel is my favorite topic?