National Missile Defence

[RScott]

The Bush Administration has expressed their intention of pursuing national missile defence, a ground-based system of interceptors designed to address accidential launches or attacks by rougue states.

[FastNed]

Unfortunately, the present government of Canada has ignored invitations from the US for several years to join in the Anti-Missile Defense of North America.

The train has left the Station, Canada has left its seat unoccupied and American plans for Missile Defense are underway and the defense area ends at the Canadian/American Border.

Unlike NORAD which clearly included Canada and had a Canadian as Number Two in Command, Canada is not a participant, is not in the Chain of Command and will receive no more coverage from American Anti-Missile defenses than Mexico.

[Boydfish]

You're right Fast Ned, in that the Canadians clearly and absolutely dropped the ball on the NMD/ABM, mainly because the Canadians weren't threatened, only British Columbians and Albertans. The DPRK won't have a ballistic missile that can hit Ontario or Quebec for the next 10-15 years, but they can already hit Vancouver.

That aside, it's impossible for the US to build a system that won't also defend the Canadian confederation. The engagement envelope wouldn't permit the risk, as a transpolar launch down the west coast of North America is almost impossible to determine if it's final destination is Vancouver, Seattle, San Francisco or Los Angleles until it's too late.

[FastNed]

Without being overly technical, I believe we can identify an impact point at least by the time of reentry. Realistically, we will reflexively defend Canada with or without the participation of the Canadian Government. That is, all other things being equal.

Without Canadian participation, our launch sites will be limited to America and the siting will be with the intent of protecting America - not North America

[August1991]

I'll resurrect this old thread. (The posts above are pertinent.)

Ibbitson today writes this.

Many, perhaps even most, Liberal MPs are uncomfortable with missile defence, but equally concerned about the repercussions should the Canadian government withdraw. (The immediate repercussion would be the effective termination of NORAD, accompanied by a deep chill in Canada-U.S. ties.)

Would these be the consequences if we don't sign on? Is this what the NDP/Parrish want?

[Black Dog]

Would these be the consequences if we don't sign on? Is this what the NDP/Parrish want?

Ya know, I keep hearing about how we should consider missile defense, as the U.S. is our biggest trading partner and closest ally and friend. But it seems to me that should not preclude our nation's right to act on it's own principles.

In this case, as with BSE and softwoood lumber, the U.S. is looking out, first and foremost, for it's own interests, which is understandable. However, Canada should be free in turn to look out for it's own interest and principles without the threat of bullying or reprisals.

As we've seen in various trade disputes, the U.S. is not above throwing it's weight around to get it's own way, yet remains free of criticism. Instead, when Candad does stand up for principles that reflect the views of Candians, its leadership is branded as cowardly, treasonous and anti-American (whatever that means).

I think NMD supporters, and anyone who likes tossing out the meaningless epithet "anti-American", should take a good look at what kind of friend and ally the U.S. is to Canada. Because it seems less like a relationship between equal partners and more of a relationship between a 250 pound biker and his 98 pound cell mate.

[ceemes]

The so-called Nation Missile Defence programme that Bush is pushing is little more then a relic of the Cold War. It is made some sense back in the days of the 60's to early 90's, but fails to adress the threats and issues we face today.

As far as I can see, the only reason to pursue this programme is to transfer hard earned dollars out of the pockets of the tax payers and into the pockets of the Aerospace weapons industries.

The threats we are facing today are not the same threats we faced back in the bad old days of the cold war. Back then we fought or rather defended against nations with differing ideologies who used basically the same weapons and political systems as we did.

The nuclear threat has not gone away by any stretch of the imagination, however there has been a fundamental shift in the types of people who would use such weapons against us. They are no longer nation states relying on missiles, bombers and standing armies to fight their battles, but rather small groups of ideological partisans who use unconventional methods of attack and delivery. If a nuclear weapon was to be used against a North American city in the next 20 years, odds are it will not be delivered via an ICBM or conventional bomber, odds are it will be delivered via civilian channels, ie freighters, tankers, or a civil airliner.

That is where the missile defence funding should be directed, at the real threat of terrorist dealing a nuke via UPS, COD.

One thing that does bother me about Bush's plan is that he has yet to say who he would share the technology (if it ever works that is) with. Reagan to his credit did address the real fears the Soviet Union had about Star Wars, that it would allow the US to have a first strike capability, by promising to share the system with them. Basically promising that not only the west would be protected from a Soviet first strike, the the Soviets would be protected from a first strike from the west.

Bush has yet to make such a promise to the remain nuclear powers such as China and Russia, which will could lead to a use them or lose them sceneio. As with most of Bush's policies, this one has not be well thought out.

[caesar]

I think this missile defence will just start up the arms race again. The invasion of Iraq and threats against other countries has already had many of them looking to start up nuclear weapons.

I think we are better off standing on our own. Joining this system would make us appear as an American satelitte country and make us more liakely to be attacked.

I think we are fairly safe here in Canada; there are bigger and better targets in the USA. The USA government is angering countries and people around the world; not Canada.

[ceemes]

I think this missile defence will just start up the arms race again. The invasion of Iraq and threats against other countries has already had many of them looking to start up nuclear weapons.

I think we are better off standing on our own. Joining this system would make us appear as an American satelitte country and make us more liakely to be attacked.

I think we are fairly safe here in Canada; there are bigger and better targets in the USA. The USA government is angering countries and people around the world; not Canada.

The new arms race has already started, North Korea has restarted its nuclear arms programme, China is actively seeking a true blue water navy, including nuclear powered hunter-killer and SLBN subs, along with a true sea lift capability. Pakistan and India have not abated their arms programmes, and even Canada is increasing its combat arms capabilities.

England is looking at building a number of fleet class aircraft carriers in tandem with France. Iran has developed and is building its own home grown MBT and combat aircraft, and may or may not be developing nuclear weapons. Already, Iran has a nuclear capabily ballistic missile that can reach Israel.

Sadly, the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes has galvinized the worlds middle powers to seeks the ways and means to blunt US military might.

Sadly, I believe that Canada has to follow the same road. We have to rearm and rebuild our forces so that they are a creditable threat to any and all powers that may have ill intentions towards us or might harbour ideas of making some grabs of our northern territories. (Right now both the US and IIRC Denmark are both making grabs at Canada's northern terrory)

This would include devoloping our own arms industry to design and build the equipment all branches of the Forces require.

I would also like to see the size of the forces increased by at least a factor of 10, ideally adopting a system much like Switzerland has where every person (males and females..anyone who think women cannot function in the combat arms is sadly mistaken) who is physically and mentally between the ages of 18 to 55 has to be an active member of either the regular or reserve force. Of course this is politically unacceptable to most Canadians.

The RCN needs more ships, especially vessels capable of patrolling and defending our artic seas, which I guess means nuclear powered hunter-killer class of sub.

The RCAF need to be brought up to at least the levels of aircraft and manpower we had during the 1950's. This will mean more fighters and bombers.

The army has its own needs which are glaringly apparent. One thing I would love to see is the junking of the Canadian version of the M-16 and the adoption of a rifle with a little more punch and relability. Also, JTF2 should be built up to at least Battalion levels in order to address Terrorism threats.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, we had a small window of opportunity to rebuild the world for the better. We failed, and now we have to build the weapon and defence systems required to stand on our own two feet and to meet any and all threats we may face.

[ceemes]

I think this missile defence will just start up the arms race again.  The invasion of Iraq and threats against other countries has already had many of them looking to start up nuclear weapons.

I think we are better off standing on our own.  Joining this system would make us appear as an American satelitte country and make us more liakely to be attacked.

I think we are fairly safe here in Canada; there are bigger and better targets in the USA.  The USA government is angering countries and people around the world; not Canada.

The new arms race has already started, North Korea has restarted its nuclear arms programme, China is actively seeking a true blue water navy, including nuclear powered hunter-killer and SLBN subs, along with a true sea lift capability. Pakistan and India have not abated their arms programmes, and even Canada is increasing its combat arms capabilities.

England is looking at building a number of fleet class aircraft carriers in tandem with France. Iran has developed and is building its own home grown MBT and combat aircraft, and may or may not be developing nuclear weapons. Already, Iran has a nuclear capabily ballistic missile that can reach Israel.

Sadly, the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes has galvinized the worlds middle powers to seeks the ways and means to blunt US military might.

Sadly, I believe that Canada has to follow the same road. We have to rearm and rebuild our forces so that they are a creditable threat to any and all powers that may have ill intentions towards us or might harbour ideas of making some grabs of our northern territories. (Right now both the US and IIRC Denmark are both making grabs at Canada's northern terrory)

This would include devoloping our own arms industry to design and build the equipment all branches of the Forces require.

I would also like to see the size of the forces increased by at least a factor of 10, ideally adopting a system much like Switzerland has where every person (males and females..anyone who think women cannot function in the combat arms is sadly mistaken) who is physically and mentally fit and is between the ages of 18 to 55 has to be an active member of either the regular or reserve force. Of course this is politically unacceptable to most Canadians.

The RCN needs more ships, especially vessels capable of patrolling and defending our artic seas, which I guess means nuclear powered hunter-killer class of sub.

The RCAF need to be brought up to at least the levels of aircraft and manpower we had during the 1950's. This will mean more fighters and bombers.

The army has its own needs which are glaringly apparent. One thing I would love to see is the junking of the Canadian version of the M-16 and the adoption of a rifle with a little more punch and relability. Also, JTF2 should be built up to at least Battalion levels in order to address Terrorism threats.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, we had a small window of opportunity to rebuild the world for the better. We failed, and now we have to build the weapon and defence systems required to stand on our own two feet and to meet any and all threats we may face.

[caesar]

Hopefully, it is not too late. The balance of power between the USSR and the USA was keeping the peace. It may need China to come to the forefront and balance the power of the USA. Things may improve if Bush is replaced come election time.

I think we need to rebuild our armies and navy to a certain extent; trained to handle natural and man made disasters. There is no way we could stop the USA if they wish to take over Canada. At the present time; there is no threat there; the citizens of America wouldn't buy any excuse to invade Canada. However, Canada is allowing the USA to practically control our resources so for the moment; there is no need.