Provincial Seperation

Figleaf · November 7, 2006

Alberta's complaints (other than the NEP) have always related to the fact that the election is over by the time they turn on their sets to catch the results.

:blink: Albertans are pissed because the sun rises in the east?!?

Liberals from Toronto and Quebec have run this country for decades. THAT is what pisses off Albertans.

:blink:

Albertans are pissed because Canada is a democracy??

Figleaf · November 7, 2006

Gay marriage? Health Care? These are a couple of issues Albertans don't agree ... on.

I don't get why those issues are particularly concerning to Albertans any more than other Canadians.

geoffrey · November 8, 2006

Gay marriage? Health Care? These are a couple of issues Albertans don't agree ... on.

I don't get why those issues are particularly concerning to Albertans any more than other Canadians.

Different culture. There is more a cultural difference Calgary-Toronto than Toronto-Montreal... yet they are a nation?

Figleaf · November 9, 2006

Gay marriage? Health Care? These are a couple of issues Albertans don't agree ... on.

I don't get why those issues are particularly concerning to Albertans any more than other Canadians.

Different culture. There is more a cultural difference Calgary-Toronto than Toronto-Montreal... yet they are a nation?

Sorry, I phrased my comment inaptly.

I mean, why are those issues perceived by some Albertans as being something that is of particular concern to them AS ALBERTANS?

geoffrey · November 10, 2006

Things like a Carbon Tax are an immediate concern of Albertans. If Iggy were elected PM, he's already said he'd bring one in ASAP. That's a typical screw the west, we'll take the rest attitude. 70% of fossil fuel consumption is cars... and they are made in Ontario. We provide the oil, you provide the cars. The environmental controls should be distributed equally.

Plus than I can imagine the bitching coming from back East. "Alberta is screwing us, do you see what we pay for gas?!?!"

Ugh. The ignorance is amazing.

Why should Alberta care to stick around, what do we benefit? Answer me that.

I think the lack of trade-barriers (though inter-provincial ones are sometimes larger than international) is a good place to start. Other that than, I can't see much right now.

Hydraboss · November 10, 2006

Alberta SHOULD NOT stick around. That is the answer. We do not benefit at all by remaining a part of Canada. Defense? Easily handled. Culture? We have our own. Justice system? Canada doesn't have one, but you can be sure that Alberta would. Federal transfer payments? Okay, next one. CPP? Are you kidding? RCMP? Again, easily dealt with. House of Commoners? You can keep that one. Senate? See previous comment. Official bilingualism? Never was in Alberta. Never will be. Immigration? We can handle that one too, thank you.

Can anyone name one thing that Alberta would lose by leaving? Of course you can't, because there isn't anything. We should be leaving, and leaving now.

Figleaf · November 10, 2006

Can anyone name one thing that Alberta would lose by leaving?

I can -- It's existence.

"Alberta" only exists as a province of Canada. It can't 'separate' without disestablishing itself. In so doing the territory would revert to the crown of Canada.

The very concept of 'separation of Alberta' (or Saskatchewan) is a meaningless nullity.

Hydraboss · November 10, 2006

Your comments don't even make sense. Lands would revert to the Crown? No more than Canada reverted to England or France. You're grasping at straws. Is that really the best argument you can formulate to prevent provincial seperation? Come on, you're smarter than that. Try a little.

I notice that the poll still sits with only 44% against seperation. Hmmm. Do I sense support for an independant Alberta?

Figleaf · November 10, 2006

Your comments don't even make sense. Lands would revert to the Crown? No more than Canada reverted to England or France.

France ceded its territory in Canada to England. England established Canada and set it up to operate as its own thing. Both these were formal processes with 'consent' of the relevant parties. Alberta separation as you envision it would be an attempted unilateral secession of a part of Canada. The moment it were attempted Canada would be entitled to take over. There's no way such a theft could be tolerated.

Hydraboss · November 10, 2006

Your comments don't even make sense. Lands would revert to the Crown? No more than Canada reverted to England or France.

France ceded its territory in Canada to England. England established Canada and set it up to operate as its own thing. Both these were formal processes with 'consent' of the relevant parties. Alberta separation as you envision it would be an attempted unilateral secession of a part of Canada. The moment it were attempted Canada would be entitled to take over. There's no way such a theft could be tolerated.

...or prevented.

Figleaf · November 10, 2006

Your comments don't even make sense. Lands would revert to the Crown? No more than Canada reverted to England or France.

France ceded its territory in Canada to England. England established Canada and set it up to operate as its own thing. Both these were formal processes with 'consent' of the relevant parties. Alberta separation as you envision it would be an attempted unilateral secession of a part of Canada. The moment it were attempted Canada would be entitled to take over. There's no way such a theft could be tolerated.

...or prevented.

Oh, that would be simple -- just arrest the provincial government.

Hydraboss · November 10, 2006

Good lord, are you for real? There isn't even enough politcal will in this country to put murderers in prison, and you think anyone in the ROC has the balls to arrest an elected government? Ha!

You know damn well that if and when Alberta, or any other province or territory, decides to seperate there won't be a damn thing the ROC can do physically. There may be court case upon court case, but no one is going to call in the Armed Forces to arrest anyone and you know it.

Figleaf · November 11, 2006

Good lord, are you for real? There isn't even enough politcal will in this country to put murderers in prison, and you think anyone in the ROC has the balls to arrest an elected government? Ha!
You know damn well that if and when Alberta, or any other province or territory, decides to seperate there won't be a damn thing the ROC can do physically. There may be court case upon court case, but no one is going to call in the Armed Forces to arrest anyone and you know it.

Armed Forces? No, just the RCMP. They've got plenty of experience keeping criminalism in check.

geoffrey · November 11, 2006

Ever been to Alberta Figleaf? I ask again.

Figleaf · November 11, 2006

Ever been to Alberta Figleaf? I ask again.

Why?

geoffrey · November 12, 2006

Ever been to Alberta Figleaf? I ask again.

Why?

Because it's very typical of those from Ontario or Quebec to be critical of our ideals and politics without understanding a thing about our culture.

When I moved here from the 905 I was a Liberal, I thought these Albertans were freaking crazy. All hicks. Who the hell drives a pickup truck in a city? Wears a cowboy hat to the bar? My gosh. Who are these people?

But after a few years here, I began to understand what it's about out here, and how considerably different the culture is from the rest of Canada. When I was back in Ontario, I didn't experience nearly the culture shock traveling to Quebec City or Montreal (I speak French), or when I briefly lived in Quebec. I definitely saw distinct differences in the Maritimes.... but nothing compares to out here.

There is a fundamental difference in attitude.

People make the assumption that Calgary is Toronto sans culture and with the addition of cowboy hats and Dodge 3500's in the downtown core. It's not, the culture difference is considerably more than that.

You really need to spend a few years out here to understand the greivences of Albertans and the other western provinces. Someone that has never even travelled out here or has spent their whole life within Toronto is hardly a qualified opinion on national unity in regards to the West.

Jerry J. Fortin · November 14, 2006

Alberta will choose its own path for the simple reason that we believe we are becoming a nation in isolation. We will become even more isolated over the next few years as the federal government undertakes the changes it desires. Any form of carbon tax or industrial tax that threatens the economic diversification of Alberta will be viewed detrimentaly here.

The wants and desires of Canada of as much concern to Albertans as ours are to them. That is the reason we will choose to leave confederation. Others can question our intentions and grievances but the final authority lays with the citizens of Alberta and their right to self determination. Other opinions have no weight in this consideration.

Canada is a failed nation. Crippled by debt it is unable to resolve its financial issues. The nation is disabled by its regional disparities. Its political system is antiquated and unable to address the pressing concerns of many of its citizens. The sooner Alberta gets out of confederation the sooner our citizens will be able to realize the benefits of their heritage. As it stands today we are required to share that without choice, and that lack of choice is the basis of our discontent.

Black Dog · November 14, 2006

People make the assumption that Calgary is Toronto sans culture and with the addition of cowboy hats and Dodge 3500's in the downtown core. It's not, the culture difference is considerably more than that.

I'd love to hear what this distinct Alberta culture consists of. BTW: does that apply to all of Alberta, or just Calgary? What about rural Alberta?

I would posit that the culture you mention is really a series of deep-seated and abiding myths that many Albertans ascribe to that shape their world view. These in turn are projected outwardly to the outside world, where they are often misinterpreted or misunderstood.

You really need to spend a few years out here to understand the greivences of Albertans and the other western provinces. Someone that has never even travelled out here or has spent their whole life within Toronto is hardly a qualified opinion on national unity in regards to the West.

Well, I'm more Albertan than you, but even I have no idea what you're talking about. I've spent a lifetime neck-deep in the hypocricies and self-deceptions Albertans inflict upon themselves. one of the biggest reasons I find many Aof lberta's beefs wih the ROC so hard to swallow is that Albertans regularily accept crap from their own government that they wouldn't tolerate if it came from Ottawa. IOW, many of the greivances are simply knee-jerk reactions to "outsiders", not principled positions.

Figleaf · November 15, 2006

Ever been to Alberta Figleaf? I ask again.

Why?

Because it's very typical of those from Ontario or Quebec to be critical of our ideals and politics without understanding a thing about our culture.

The points I'm making have very little to do with culture.

But after a few years here, I began to understand what it's about out here, ... but nothing compares to out here... There is a fundamental difference in attitude.
.., the culture difference is considerably more than that.

Please be more specific.

You really need to spend a few years out here to understand the greivences of Albertans and the other western provinces.

The grievances I've been told about so far don't seem to be the kind that will make more sense with cultural familiarity. Culture familiarity won't change the economic history of the NEP, or the policy specifics of equalization payments, or the reasons for the Wheat board. Nor will cultural appreciation change the constitution.

Someone that has never even travelled out here or has spent their whole life within Toronto is hardly a qualified opinion on national unity in regards to the West.

As to myself, I don't have those handicaps.

But actually, none of my arguments relied on any geographical experience as their basis.

Figleaf · November 15, 2006

The wants and desires of Canada of as much concern to Albertans as ours are to them.

Since Albertans are Canadians, obvious Albertans' concerns are integral with Canadians' concerns.

That is the reason we will choose to leave confederation.

Once more, for clarity: you don't have that choice.

the citizens of Alberta and their right to self determination.

The 'citizens' of Alberta have no such right.

Charles Anthony · November 15, 2006

The 'citizens' of Alberta have no such right.

They do not need a right.

They need only make a demand or a declaration which Rest-Of-Canada does/can/care not to oppose.

Topaz · November 15, 2006

I'm totally against any provinces leaving Canada, although maybe the US would like to see that. They are running out of natural resources and soon WATER will take the place of oil and who has the most fresh water? Canada. Anyway, let's just say a province did, what would they lose? CPP, C$, ???????

geoffrey · November 16, 2006

I'm totally against any provinces leaving Canada, although maybe the US would like to see that. They are running out of natural resources and soon WATER will take the place of oil and who has the most fresh water? Canada. Anyway, let's just say a province did, what would they lose? CPP, C$, ???????

They should get their share of the CPP, if they are expected to take a share of the debt.

Figleaf · November 16, 2006

The 'citizens' of Alberta have no such right.
They do not need a right.
They need only make a demand or a declaration which Rest-Of-Canada does/can/care not to oppose.

Well, any territory can attempt to create de facto autonomy. I can't see Alberta attempting it successfully, unless for some reason Canada remained infirm of purpose in the face of the attempted secession.

Charles Anthony · November 16, 2006

unless for some reason Canada remained infirm of purpose

You mean unless for some reason television service gets disturbed and Canadians are not able to watch hockey. Unless the separation of Quebec/Alberta/Whatever disrupts the television service in Canada, Canadians will not go to war amongst eachother. They have more important things to do.

Given that Canadians grudgingly accept to pay extra for extra-useless television channels just to have the opportunity to watch a few shows, something as trivial as the economic costs of Quebec/Alberta/Whatever separation should be an easy sell.