Provincial Seperation

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I think you will find that in Alberta ... We do not believe ourselves to be naive at all, just mistreated by the ROC, very much like the First Nations actually.

That would be funny, if it weren't so perversely self-serving, and so pathologically self-pitying. Yes, it would be funny, if it didn't make me want to puke.

You must live in Ontario or Quebec. I love when Easterners come here or speak their mind on what's best for Alberta.

You misunderstand my objection. I'm reacting to the ludicrous idea that Alberta's situation compares with that of aboriginal peoples.

I merely said that we believe we were mistreated by the feds. I could have said that First Nations peoples were abused more than Albertans, but how much abuse by the federal system constitutes enough?

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Is it an exaggeration that the NEP cost Albertans dearly?

The mythology Albertan extremists have promulgated around the NEP is a perfect example of the exaggerated grievances used by separatists. The way they whine about it, you'd think pogroms were conducted. They ignore the facts (economics, not the NEP, were responsible for such minor hardship as occured), and they conveniently forget the earlier contribution made by Canada to development of the oil industry in the first place.

While it is true that oil dropped from 40 to 8 dollars a barrel, which truely is an economic factor, you fail to mention that the driving force behind the program was that at the time of its creation oil was 40 dollars a barrel and the feds wanted cheaper oil from Alberta then they were paying for the imported oil they were buying from elsewhere! That was the real truth behind the program. The result was a devastated industry that provided 1 of every 6 jobs in the province. Inflation was through the roof at the time and our unemployment went into double digits. Personal and business bankrupcies went into a fierce upward spiral with many people losing their homes. These things are not minor and they were ultimately caused as a result of the NEP, because had the government not ramned that program down Alberta throats those companies would have continued their development in spite of the fall in prices. It was the federally imposed export tax that set them on them back.

Transfer payments are causing real backlase in Alberta these days, what is your view on this tax Alberta program?

There's more fiction. Tranfer payments don't come from taxes imposed on a province. They come from the income taxes imposed on every taxpayer.

Well that is true enough, but how about the rest of the calculation which returns those tax dollars to the citizens? Are you really suggesting that Alberta recieves that money back, because any fool can read the numbers and conclude that our tax dollars go elsewhere. Look Alberta and Ontario are the only ones that pay into that fund, maybe BC next year and possibly Saskatchewan as well, but lets just deal with the current numbers. Of the nearly 11 billion almost 90% came from Albertans. Ontario has as many people in Toronto as we have in our whole province and yet we are paying a largely disproprtional amount into equalization. Granted we are making the money, but the feds have a little discriminatory tax just for those provinces that don't live on the federal dime.

Its not fiction my deluded friend, just a little dose of reality for you. Things are a little more complicated than you may be able to understand, but please try to understand the sentiments of Albertans. We do not want to seperate, we are being pushed into that corner. We simply can't afford to pay everybody else's way while ignoring our own troubles. Its not that we are greedy, we just want to look after our own in a manner of our choosing. Look at it this way, we make up a growing proportion of the nations GDP, and pay a growing amount of taxes into the federal system and yet we have a very small percentage of representation in the political process. Granted that the system is designed the way it is and all looks fair and impartial within that context but we still want more of a say because of what we pay. To us the partnership in confederation is becoming more imbalanced everyday because we contribute more and recieve less every year. That is the essence of our problems with equalization.

[Figleaf]

read my sig

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[geoffrey]

1-Why should the rest of the country that created and helped build Alberta and its oil industry not be able to have some benefit from the oil?

It costs me more to buy a car from a domestic producer than an South Korean one. I insist, in NEP style fashion, that the Ontario auto industry MUST sell at a grossly reduced domestic price, otherwise, they are screwing Canadians.

See the stupidity. Back off... oil is non-renewable, Alberta only has one shot. If Ontario and Quebec (and the Maritimes) didn't mismanage so much, their industries generally are sustainable. Alberta's is not.

That's why resources can't be touched by the Fed, and shouldn't be. Also why we pay too much into confederation, all of money in Alberta is influenced by oil and gas.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That about sums it up!

[Hydraboss]

Is it an exaggeration that the NEP cost Albertans dearly?

The mythology Albertan extremists have promulgated around the NEP is a perfect example of the exaggerated grievances used by separatists. The way they whine about it, you'd think pogroms were conducted. They ignore the facts (economics, not the NEP, were responsible for such minor hardship as occured), and they conveniently forget the earlier contribution made by Canada to development of the oil industry in the first place.

Transfer payments are causing real backlase in Alberta these days, what is your view on this tax Alberta program?

There's more fiction. Tranfer payments don't come from taxes imposed on a province. They come from the income taxes imposed on every taxpayer.

Albertan extremists? There are Albertan extremists? Why wasn't I informed immediately? Minor hardship? Do you have ANY idea what you are talking about? At all? Minor hardship because of the NEP nearly devastated the province. It caused a tremendous rift between the West and Ottawa, the likes of which will not disappear during my lifetime (and hopefully not my kid's either!). There is disapproval of federal government involvement in anything out here, and also outright hatred.

Transfer payments don't come from taxes imposed on a province? Is that a fact?..... You might want to read Jerry's reply again, as he worded it so well. As for your defence of the way it is administered, keep it up. Please continue treating us like the red-headed step child and see where it gets the ROC. It is obvious that you don't like separatists, or their beliefs. Who gives a flying f**k through a rolling donut? I don't. Are you just afraid that the rest of the country would have a tough time making it without their oil and gas supplying packhorse? Is that what is truly bugging you about my hopes and opinions?

[MightyAC]

For those that feel provinces should be able to sepparate, can cities sepparate from provinces? Should say Toronto or Calgary be able to become city states on their own if the residents vote in favour? Should I be able to create my own nation on my own land if the majority of my family members vote in favour?

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hydraboss]

Please continue, Fig, with your knowledge-impaired responses. Personally I love them because they serve well to underscore and highlight the reality of the views of the ROC. While this may not be true overall, it is people like you and comments like yours that stoke separation. Keep going...

Your belief that the NEP was not the cause of Alberta's "slight recession" flies in the face of those of us who lived through it. Were you actually around when it happened, or are you speaking from your memories of the Liberal classroom that you grew up in? There are two groups of people that exist in this instance: the oppressors and the oppressed. Sounds very over-blown to use that terminology, but that is the way a great number of Albertans feel. Have you been watching this board and seeing how the attitudes are changing? Members from Alberta are starting to become very vocal about the possibility of separation, and that alone bodes well for my designs. What begins as an idea, can quickly grow to more.

So again, please continue telling Albertans that it's all in their heads, and in the heads of the Alberta Extremists (god, I love that phrase). The more you do, the more you will aid in bringing it to a reality.

[Figleaf]

[s.

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[geoffrey]

1-Why should the rest of the country that created and helped build Alberta and its oil industry not be able to have some benefit from the oil?

It costs me more to buy a car from a domestic producer than an South Korean one. I insist, in NEP style fashion, that the Ontario auto industry MUST sell at a grossly reduced domestic price, otherwise, they are screwing Canadians.

See the stupidity.

I don't see the parallel. The problem was not that foreign oil was cheap, the problem was that it was expensive. Your example doesn't match the facts we're addressing, so it says nothing useful here.

And btw, did Alberta help build Ontario or eastern Canada? No, it was the other way around.

Sure it does. I want cheaper cars! Make them for me at a loss, cheaper than you sell them to anyone else. And do it under the guise of national interest.

Alberta is all that's keeping eastern Canada above 3rd world status right now, so I'd carefully watch where you go with that. Canada would be hugely devasted economically by a departure of Alberta.

Back off... oil is non-renewable, Alberta only has one shot.

Its lack of renewability doesn't change the rights or wrongs of who benefits from it.

Yes it does. We need that money to diversify our economy for the future.

... Ontario and Quebec (and the Maritimes) ... industries generally are sustainable. Alberta's is not.

Better separate then!

There ya go, just the attitude that the typical Easterner has. Have you left the centre of the universe yet in your life? Have you ever been to Alberta?

[Riverwind]

Alberta is all that's keeping eastern Canada above 3rd world status right now, so I'd carefully watch where you go with that. Canada would be hugely devasted economically by a departure of Alberta.

Do you actually have any data that backs up that assertion? The Maritimes are subsidized by the rest of the country but claiming that they would be reduced to 3rd world levels of poverty if those subsidies were removed is quite the exaggeration. In any case, a large component of that subsidy comes of Ontario - Alberta is not the only contributor.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hydraboss]

Figleaf, would you mind demonstrating how Alberta was built by the ROC? I'm just curious.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[geoffrey]

Figleaf, would you mind demonstrating how Alberta was built by the ROC? I'm just curious.

Go to a library, look up books on the history of Canada. Read a couple. Then go to a reference library and look up federal energy policies from 1905 to 1975.

Here's a tidbit for you... Alberta didn't exist before 1905.

See there you go. Typical of him. "Where's your proof that Alberta got screwed! I WANT PROOF".

Then you ask for something. "Go to the library and do your own research."

Ha.

Seriously though Fig, have you ever been outside of the centre of the universe? Or do you generally just spout your anti-West rhetoric from your Starbucks on Bloor? I've heard alot of arrogant Easterns talk trash about how much they think they do for the West, and about the West's culture in general, but you take it a whole new level.

My example previously made perfect sense. During the NEP, the government felt like Canadians paid too much for oil, so they forced Alberta to sell it to Canadians first at cheaper then world prices. So that's what I'm suggesting. I pay too much for a car. Sell it to me cheaper than anywhere else in the world. That's pretty similar no? Or is Southern Ontario's massively polluting and toxic waste creating industry untouchable?

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hydraboss]

Rudimentary?

Bombastic?

Please no use 6 cylinder words. Me took 8 minutes to find on Google. Not nice.

For the last time: I'm the separatist.

Geoffrey is bang on the money. You ask for proof but supply none.

Your statements are received clearly as anti-west. How could they not be? Why should the ROC receive anything more from Alberta? Are the billions we send not enough? What will be enough for you?

The NEP screwed the West. You can argue your side probably as long as I can argue mine, however, Albertans will never buy your line of BS because too many of us lived through it. Maybe that's just the Alberta Extremist in me talking. I have no doubt that you believe that the civilized and educated world ends at the western border of Ontario, and you will always be welcome to that opinion. There is a very similar sentiment here, it just faces the other direction.

Do you remember the phrase "Turn off the valve and let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark"? Well, guess what, it's alive and well again.

Good.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hydraboss]

"Then it should be easy For you to explain...What did I say that's "anti-west"?"

Wellll, lets take a look, shall we?

"Yes, yes. I know that the trauma of the NEP is your article of faith, but its also fiction."

Yep! All Albertans know that the NEP was fiction. Just ask any of us, and I'm sure you'll here the old "I know it's BS, but I just wanted to blame the feds for me losing my job, my house, my savings, etc."

"Yep. Knee-jerk, prejudicial, impenetrable by logic or fact, unwarranted disapproval and also hatred. That makes you proud to be Albertan, does it?"

Uh-huh. If an Albertan doesn't like the federal government because of what happened in the past, that person demonstrates knee-jerk, prejudicial, impenetrable by logic or fact, unwarranted disapproval. Damn stupid Albertans.

"The NEP never put the price of oil below its production cost, and so, it cannot be blamed for substantial hardships."

See point #2 above. Pure fiction.

"Let me ask you again: Since Canada supported and helped build both Alberta and the oil industry, why shouldn't we get any benefit from that?"

Let me answer again: Are the billions we send in transfers and in taxes not enough "benefit" for you. Sorry. Let me send you my first born child too.

"Some of you in Alberta clearly LIKE hating the rest of the country, but please, don't bother to pretend it's because of any valid reasons since your reasons are plainly inaccurate."

Here we go again. Damn Albertans lack any valid reasons because our reasons are plainly inaccurate. We should have been able to see that. Damn blind Albertans.

Figleaf, you are plainly correct. Albertans have no reason to be angry, or resentful, or think independantly. What we should do is just admit that people like you (that have never been to Alberta I assume) know better and can save us from our obvious delusions regarding the false memories of our citizens.

[Hydraboss]

Do you remember the phrase "Turn off the valve and let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark"? Well, guess what, it's alive and well again.

Something to be proud of.

Yes. More and more proud by the moment.

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 19, 2007 by Figleaf

[Hydraboss]

Fig, why are you so upset about Alberta separation? If we go, the house falls to 280 seats, and with the Lib's 103, they get to have a minority government.

If BC comes with us, then the house falls to 244, and with the remaining 94 Liberal seats...nope...still a minority. Oh well.

See! If we separate, you win!