Prejudice against women

[betsy]

(Sorry, but no, being a housewife is not a "job" in 2006, its just too easy to be called "work" IMO)

See, this is where I really have a big problem with today's feminists. This "put-down" on those who stay at home.

Do you realize that the Women's Rights Movement had worked so hard for society to accept that women staying at home and looking after the family is equivalent to a full-time job?

Before that, a woman could hardly expect anything from divorce. A lot of women were forced to stay in abusive relationships...because they rely on their husband's financial support. Alimony was a pittance, if ever.

Thanks to that Women's Rights Movement....we now see a fair splitting of conjugal properties...and the inclusion of the woman's role in the house (and sometimes in her husband's business), in estimating the value of what should be divided.

Your insistence that being a housewife is not a job is an insult...and a slap to all women. You have just rendered one of the most important goals of the Women's Rights Movement to nothing.

[betsy]

(Sorry, but no, being a housewife is not a "job" in 2006, its just too easy to be called "work" IMO)

I guess if it's your opinion, hey what can I say.

But it makes me wonder...do you even understand what you're supposed to be fighting for?

[betsy]

Personally I'm rather glad some stay home to raise their babies. One woman, my competitor, is gone off to have her second child. I'm really hoping she stays home so I can scoop up all her clients!

I take it you work for commission? Not that there's anything wrong with that . It's a tough field....I hear it's cut-throat for some.

[Drea]

Why do I think being a stay at home mom is not "work".

Automatic washers & dryers

Pilsbury dough

Running water

Dishwashers

Disposable diapers

Mop n Glow

Need I continue?

No stay at home mom in this day and age can say that they work as hard as our mothers and grandmothers.

So yes, I work harder than the stay at home mom. I am compensated, however, as I earn money -- I don't work for free!

There are certainly days where I wish I could stay home.

I get my house clean in under 2 hours so I'd have all day to play on the computer or whatever... but those days are few and far between, mostly I love working. I suppose it's because I was raised to be a "career woman". My mother discouraged me from having children -- she was miserable being a housewife, but didn't have much choice in the 60's.

I'm glad women fought so that we would not have to put up with the drudgery (?) of housework with no options. Good on them early feminists!

[JerrySeinfeld]

Why do I think being a stay at home mom is not "work".

Automatic washers & dryers

Pilsbury dough

Running water

Dishwashers

Disposable diapers

Mop n Glow

Need I continue?

No stay at home mom in this day and age can say that they work as hard as our mothers and grandmothers.

So yes, I work harder than the stay at home mom. I am compensated, however, as I earn money -- I don't work for free!

There are certainly days where I wish I could stay home.

I get my house clean in under 2 hours so I'd have all day to play on the computer or whatever... but those days are few and far between, mostly I love working. I suppose it's because I was raised to be a "career woman". My mother discouraged me from having children -- she was miserable being a housewife, but didn't have much choice in the 60's.

I'm glad women fought so that we would not have to put up with the drudgery (?) of housework with no options. Good on them early feminists!

So my question for you as a career woman is: do you experience a "glass ceiling" at work?

[margrace]

This site was started to bring attention to the women of the third world countries who are sex slaves, however rather than think about it, men are the customers, it has gotten into an entirely different venue.

Glass Ceilings ask Dianne Ablonczy of the Alliance Party. In an interview after she ran for the leadership of the party she said that was the first time she had experienced the GLASS CEILING.

An example of how great it is for women in the work force. A woman dared to asked for a raise, she was paid nearly minimum wage, and had filled a man's job while he went to jail for motor manslaughter. When he came back he stepped right into his old job. The boss told her that she should be damn glad she had a job and to stop complaining. If she had tried to do anything about it she would have been out of a job in this community so fast her head would be spinning.

[Drea]

So my question for you as a career woman is: do you experience a "glass ceiling" at work?

No. I'm in sales. The customer buys - I earn.

As I'm not ready yet to move up the ladder (only been here 3 years), I have had no reason to "compete" for a higher level position.

Most of the "higher ups" are men. Few are women. But that is changing. Years ago no one would've ever thought to hire a female sales rep so I have hope that when I am ready, I will be able to move up the ladder unhindered.

[Black Dog]

Why do I think being a stay at home mom is not "work".

Automatic washers & dryers

Pilsbury dough

Running water

Dishwashers

Disposable diapers

Mop n Glow

Need I continue?

Drea, I'm gonna have to go and disagree with you on this. First: even with all the mod cons at our disposal, housework sucks. And you have to remember that the vast majority of working women (you know, the one's who don't get paid for their labour because they are doing it at home) don't have access to many of the wonders you cite above.

Second: one of feminisms' big beefs was the lack of recognition of the importance of so-called "women's work". Despite being some of the most mindless, repetitive, filthy and backbreaking tasks around, household chores have always been looked down upon and regarded as far less important than "men's work". Hell, one of feminism's most important works, Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique" focused on the marginalisation of women in the role orf homemakers. So I'd rethink the denigration of women in the home if I were you and focus on recognizing the contribution of those women who do work in the home and on making sure their work is recognized and appreciated.

[betsy]

So I'd rethink the denigration of women in the home if I were you and focus on recognizing the contribution of those women who do work in the home and on making sure their work is recognized and appreciated.

Thank you Black Dog.

[Drea]

Everybody in our society has automatic washers & dryers, running water and disposable diapers.

There are, of course, some people that don't have washers and dryers but they are not washing their clothes by hand, they go to the laundromat. We all have running water and I have yet to talk to a mom who uses cloth diapers on a regular basis.

Housewives today have it so much easier than generations before. It is a priveledge in this day and age to stay home and have only a home to look after.

Most every couple I know shares the financial and emotional wellbeing of the family as well as the cleaning/cooking chores.

[betsy]

Everybody in our society has automatic washers & dryers, running water and disposable diapers.

There are, of course, some people that don't have washers and dryers but they are not washing their clothes by hand, they go to the laundromat. We all have running water and I have yet to talk to a mom who uses cloth diapers on a regular basis.

Housewives today have it so much easier than generations before. It is a priveledge in this day and age to stay home and have only a home to look after.

Most every couple I know shares the financial and emotional wellbeing of the family as well as the cleaning/cooking chores.

Drea, Drea, Drea.....what you're enumerating are the shallow props of any woman in a house.....whether they work out or in the house. Yes, thank God for all those modernized gadgets. And true, that it's a molly maid and nanny combo what most stay-at-home women have to face and do. Some out of choice, while for others there is no other choice.

But it all depends on individual outlook. For some women, being there to greet their children as they come home from school and spending time around that kitchen table eating cookies and milk is very much preferable than turning their children into "latch-key kids"...coming home to an empty house.

For some women...it is the QUALITY of life that they can provide for their family that is far more important....and priceless.

The quality of life with lesser stress from running around like a chicken that just got its head chopped off balancing work, home, children, kids' schooling, extra-curriculum, driving to and from various destinations, appointments, meeting, job-related stress etc. Everything so compressed in one day....so is it any surprise why so many are taking Prozac these days?

Some women however, are good at balancing everything. Some women thrive on that. Maybe you're one of them. But not all women want that kind of life. And that doesn't make them any less.

If we are all given the choice and money is no object...I'm sure majority of married women would prefer to stay at home with their children.

[betsy]

*Housewives today have it so much easier than generations before. It is a priveledge in this day and age to stay home and have only a home to look after.

*(Sorry, but no, being a housewife is not a "job" in 2006, its just too easy to be called "work" IMO)

So what about this statement you've made?

"I will consider myself a feminist until all the backass attitudes of the past have died away."

The back-ass attitude ain't gone, Drea. It's alive and well!

How ironic that it is now today's feminists like you who seem to have replaced those men, don't you think?

[betsy]

I work with children....and working couples, remember?

I see the strain and tremendous stress a lot of women are going through in those brief moments when they drop off or pick up their children.

A mother at one time called to say she's going to be late a few minutes picking her child. Then she burst into tears ....apologizing for it, saying she's been having a bad day at work.

Whenever some parents call to say they're going to be late (it doesn't happen often), I always reassure them not to worry....just drive safely.

Even though it's not expected from me, I still give children of late-arriving parents a little snack. I know how it must be for Mom or Dad, already harried....then having to deal with a hungry child on top of that....rushing to make dinner.

My lunch program had been planned and geared....to make life a little bit easier for working couples. They do not have to go through all the guilt of having to give their kids kraft dinner...or hot dogs....or just a simple sandwich and soup...or whatever that's easy for them to whip up....knowing that their children has had a big hot lunch, mostly home-made!

A lot of couples today, especially women...seem to be running around carrying guilt on their shoulders for working out of the house and not being there for their children. That's a lot of burden to be lagging around with you all day, on top of everything else. For a lot, something will have to give.

But then, for a lot...there's no choice but to work out of the house.

I know that if I have a young child of my own, and if I have the option of making a choice (even to the point of giving up a few material things)....there'll be no question about it: my place is at home, with my child!

[betsy]

It is a priveledge in this day and age to stay home and have only a home to look after.

You'd be surprised to know that in this day and age, "staying at home" had taken on a new meaning.

Lots of women stay at home......and they operate businesses at home!

And usually the reason behind this move is that: they want to be their own boss!

Being your own boss....is truly, "liberating!"

[Drea]

Equality means doing things that aren't easy... like leaving the children at daycare.

The woman that burst into tears... could be she was just having a horomonal week... I freaked on a teenager who made a nasty face at me the other day... horomonal outburst.

What gets me is that some women want equality but don't know what it means. It doesn't mean being looked after.

I'm still a woman, even though I have a career. I still experience PMS, I still cry at sad movies. Being a feminist doesn't make me less of a woman. Not wanting to stay home, not feeling guilty about not having warm cookies ready at 3pm -- these things don't make career women unfeminine. We are not man-haters. We are all about sharing equally in the financial and emotional wellbeing of the family.

And my son has learned that women are not there to wait on him. That he can't expect everything to be done for him when he walks in the door.

One of my coworkers, she stayed home for 14 years and is now starting her career. Every day at lunch she runs home and gets dinner prepared. What of her 14 yo? Her 12 yo, her 10 yo, her 8 yo? Can't they do it? Can't they start dinner prep? Her boys and husband are used to her taking care of everything so they have no clue how to do any "woman's" work. So there she is, hubby and boys come home to play/rest and she runs around like a chicken trying to do everything! Where is the equality there?

If she had been working from the get go, her boys and husband would share the burden because they would have grown up with a mom that works, they would be used to doing chores and prepping for dinner, etc.

Her 4 boys are going to grow up believing they will find a wife who will do all the things mom does. Good luck to them.

[betsy]

One of my coworkers, she stayed home for 14 years and is now starting her career. Every day at lunch she runs home and gets dinner prepared. What of her 14 yo? Her 12 yo, her 10 yo, her 8 yo? Can't they do it? Can't they start dinner prep? Her boys and husband are used to her taking care of everything so they have no clue how to do any "woman's" work. So there she is, hubby and boys come home to play/rest and she runs around like a chicken trying to do everything! Where is the equality there?

I hear you.

But then, whose fault is it...really? Unless she's being made to do it at gun point.

Spoiled brats are made!

You see some people just give in....for whatever reason. Some don't want to deal with arguments, so they just cave in...as they say, it's easier to cave in than putting up a fight!

Just let them starve for several days...and see if they don't learn how to feed themselves! She should say, "why, are you all disabled? Do I carry the stove on my back that you all have to wait for me?" Make sure you give them a good simple recipe book though!

[betsy]

If she had been working from the get go, her boys and husband would share the burden because they would have grown up with a mom that works, they would be used to doing chores and prepping for dinner, etc.

Exactly! Working out of the house or staying at home...no difference there. She did not have to wait on them hand and foot! Who sez we have to wait on them like little princes?

I don't pick up toys in the daycare! Why should I? I'm already the one providing the toys...and I'm not the one playing with them. I say, if you can't pick up after yourselves...then don't touch those toys. Just play with the ones that don't need putting away...like the slide.

My 2 year-old wipes their dining table...and put away the chairs. Even the 15 mos old is now "on-training."

She better do something about it now. She better start doing her protest.

If she thinks she'll just ride along until they're old enough to leave the nest...well she's in for a big surprise.

Those boys are 3 big possible failures-to-launch waiting to happen!

And even if they did manage to leave the nest.....with that attitude, what are the chances they'll have lasting relationships in this day and age? They'll beeee baaaaack.

[betsy]

What gets me is that some women want equality but don't know what it means. It doesn't mean being looked after.

But that's just it! It doesn't mean being a parasite!

It's that type of mind-set that has got to change!

Because if a woman equates being "looked after" to being a parasite....just because their marriage is following traditional roles...then obviously, she's equating womens' work to zero.

Traditional roles should be viewed as, "working as a team." Both of you looking out for each other...both of you taking care of one another.

You go out there dear and bring home the bacon. Don't worry, I'll hold the fort! Your end is covered.

Whatever your arrangement may be, as long as it is not abusive of another....what is wrong with that? Whatever works well for a couple...they should go for it! If you guys have a nifty arrangement of both of you working out of the house...well, I say more power to you guys! It doesn't make you any less of a woman...same as the woman who prefers to stay at home is not any less, either.

Her worth is equal to yours.

[betsy]

I'm still a woman, even though I have a career. I still experience PMS, I still cry at sad movies.

What, women who no longer experience PMS are not women anymore? What are they? Old hags?

There is still life after 60, you know. I hear there's still sex at 80!

I mean, talk about prejudice....

[betsy]

If she had been working from the get go, her boys and husband would share the burden because they would have grown up with a mom that works, they would be used to doing chores and prepping for dinner, etc.

Corrections.

It should be....IF she had asserted herself and laid down the rules from the get go!

By saying, "if she had been working from the get go"....implies having to have something to use as "an excuse" to be treated with respect and consideration. What, so she can say, "well I've been working all day earning some money...blah-blah-blah...therefore I don't think it is fair that I still have to pick up after you guys and do everything around the house."

She should just say: "I don't have to pick up after you guys! You start doing your fair share!".....whether she works out of the house, or stays at home all day!

You don't relinquinsh your power as the queen of your own house (that is if you view yourself as an equal and the counterpart of the king)...and kowtow just like that! That's the mistake a lot of women do. They don't use their power!

I'm telling you.....some men know how to work on women and play them like a fiddle.

I could swear some men deliberately clean sloppily because they know some women can't stand sloppy jobs and will just say: "Oh for heaven's sake! You don't know how to do it right...here lemme do it instead!"

[Drea]

I'm still a woman, even though I have a career. I still experience PMS, I still cry at sad movies.

What, women who no longer experience PMS are not women anymore? What are they? Old hags?

There is still life after 60, you know. I hear there's still sex at 80!

I mean, talk about prejudice....

That's not what I meant and you know it.

Once PMS is done, menopause takes over... I don't know whether to look forward to that or not... end of bitchiness -- onset of hot flashes... sucks either way IMO.

I'm telling you.....some men know how to work on women and play them like a fiddle.

I could swear some men deliberately clean sloppily because they know some women can't stand sloppy jobs and will just say: "Oh for heaven's sake! You don't know how to do it right...here lemme do it instead!"

Mine tried that... once.

But I taught him how to get it perfect, just the way I like it.

[betsy]

Mine tried that... once.

But I taught him how to get it perfect, just the way I like it.

Mine too!

I bet a lot of these guys here tried it too?

[Remiel]

Is it any more common for women to jump at doing " Men's Work " than men to do " Women's Work " though?

[Drea]

Absolutely Remiel.

Its a rare woman says with distain "Ewww that's men's work! I ain't doin' it!"

There are those out there who will feign weakness or fear in the face of "men's" work. IE, killing spiders, getting a load of wood, etc.

I lived by myself in a little cabin when my son was little. I had to pack water, chop wood and kill (or capture for my son) BIG spiders! -- those were some of the most satisfying (and tiring) days of my life.

[Remiel]

I was thinking more along the lines of digging up the septic tank in terribly wet conditions, or moving wet dirt, where you have like two pounds of mud sticking to the bottom of each boot, and perhaps my technique is all wrong... but the pick... now *that* is backbreaking. The damn things are just too short, yet they probably wouldn't be as effective if the were much longer.