Abortion Debate

Nuclear · September 28, 2003

The most recent Abortion thread was closed, so I wanted to state my opinion here.

Once an egg is fertilized, if nature is allowed to take it's course, it will develop into a human just like me and you. So that means a fertilized egg is a human being. Just because it's not fully developed doesn't mean it is less human that you or I. Is a child before puberty any more or less human that you or me? They are less developed, but they are still human. It's not some embryo is magically given life at 5 months or whatever stage of development it is. They are life at the beginning.

If we found single cell organisms on Mars, they would be Martians.

So when a human begins as one cell(I did, you did, everyone did) they are going to develop into something more. They are alive and those who kill them for the sake of birth control is a murderer.

If you don't want to have a child, killing them once they are concieved is not the answer:

Men: Keep you pants zipped.

Woman: Keep your legs closed.

Sorry to be so rash with my words, but it's the truth.

You do the gig, you may get pregnant.

How is an abortion different from taking a newborn baby and killing them with a knife through the head like they do in China(they can only keep one child there)? The child doesn't resemble me, it's legs are half as long as mine, it's head is wicked big, and it's skull isn't fully grown. It can't speak, it can't walk, it isn't capable of logical thought(in the first few moments anyhow) and it can't reproduce. It's not developed. But it is still a life.

You're either pro-life or pro-death.

KrustyKidd · September 28, 2003

If I ran a grocery store and you came in and asked me for a tomato and I handed you a tomato seed and then demanded fity cents saying it was a tomato you would look at me like I was left wing or something.

nova_satori · September 28, 2003

So, how is life in black and white Nuclear?

Your opinon is not fact. Period.

If you really wanted to get down to it, sperm and eggs are living cells.

My question (rhetortical in sense) is, can a zygote show the same emotions, feelings, actions of a human?

Nuclear · September 28, 2003

I have a cousin who suffers from Downs Symdrome. His mental capabilities are not that of mine. Does that make him less human that me? I think not.

I have a very good friend who was a 'junior prom' baby and everyone told her mother to have her aborted. Today, her being 21 years old, would be no different than murdering her....it's like deciding to murder someone before it becomes illegal....I say there should be a grandfather clause.

If I had my lawn mower run over your tomato plant(before tomatos were on it), I guess I'd say 'sorry, but at least there were no tomatos on it to destroy...no loss' You still lost potential tomatos. I'm not saying if someone kills me, they should be tried for my future possible children and their children and their children, etc. etc. but I'm saying this. Once intercourse has taken place, and an egg is fertilized, nature is set on a course that will eventually be a human being like you and me. Once that happens, it's a life.

Nova, some animals are believed to not feel life. A tree doesn't feel, yet it has a life. We're not talking about trees here, we're talking about HUMAN BEINGS.

Here was a question, Nova, could you do calculus when you were three days old? I think not. Does that make you any less human than you are now? No. You, and your brain, have developed to where you are now.

It's a life. Even though it's primitive, it's where we ALL started. It WILL, under normal circumstances, grow into a person like you and I, how is this not a life they destroy? I don't condone radicals who would go and murder abortion doctors, as they commit the crime of their victims....but abortion should NOT be legal.

KrustyKidd · September 28, 2003

Hi Nuclear, I have a question. Supposing abortion was universally outlawed and in it's place a new, legal option was made. This option would give the mother the right after birth, to take the child (up to an age of one year old) to a clinic where if she chose she could have the child put to sleep. Now on a quiet street, every now and then a woman walks into a clinic holding a baby and an hour later comes out holding nothing. What would you do? Would you write on the forum how you did not like this, would you protest in front of government buildings. Or, like me would you take an active role and physiclly stop this from happening? It would not be hard, simply run up and snatch the baby from the woman's arms. To me there would be no way that I could walk by one of those clinics knowing a baby was being killed without taking physical action. How about you?

Derek · September 28, 2003

Abortion is wrong, all of you know it too. If you don't want to have a kid, don't do the hibbidy dibbidy. Thats all. Killing an unborn child isn't the answer. You are killing a human being. A sperm cell isnt a human being. An egg isn't a human being. A fetus is. I don't know how anybody could live with themselves after killing their unborn child purposely.

Nuclear · September 28, 2003

Hi Nuclear, I have a question. Supposing abortion was universally outlawed and in it's place a new, legal option was made. This option would give the mother the right after birth, to take the child (up to an age of one year old) to a clinic where if she chose she could have the child put to sleep. Now on a quiet street, every now and then a woman walks into a clinic holding a baby and an hour later comes out holding nothing. What would you do? Would you write on the forum how you did not like this, would you protest in front of government buildings. Or, like me would you take an active role and physiclly stop this from happening? It would not be hard, simply run up and snatch the baby from the woman's arms. To me there would be no way that I could walk by one of those clinics knowing a baby was being killed without taking physical action. How about you?

Are you supporting those who would kill abortionists? If there are peaceful means to prevent it form happening, by all means do it. Snatch the baby to safety, but going in and murdering people, even if they commit abortion, is just as wrong as what they are doing.

I must say, I have no symphathy for that girl who took RU 486...she tried to kill her baby and got what she deserved....

SirRiff · September 29, 2003

Once an egg is fertilized, if nature is allowed to take it's course, it will develop into a human just like me and you. So that means a fertilized egg is a human being. Just because it's not fully developed doesn't mean it is less human that you or I

those lines convolute the very nature of biology and philosophy.

just because something will become human doesnt mean thus it is human.

an adult human is sencient, they can suffer, they can exist seperately from all other humans, they have wills and desires.

a cell has none of these characteristics.

only society can decide at what biological point do we give the fetus the rights of all others in society.

as science had advanced we get more and more resolution on the beginnings of life and we can be more precise with our definitions.

i think if you take a philosophical approach, anthing that has the potential to be a human, must have some of the protections of society. else you could argu that any person must prove they are human at any stage in order to be included or protected.

if you take the biological approach you might argu that you must resemble the unque characteristics of a human before being declaring a human subject to protection. this would include basic physical and mental tests to show advanced development.

the reality is someone in between i think

How is an abortion different from taking a newborn baby and killing them with a knife through the head like they do in China

well i will give you two differences

1. an embryo would not suffer unduely like a baby

2. a baby can exist independantly of the mother, the embryo cant.

SirRiff

Luigi71585 · September 29, 2003

The abortion debate is old and tired. The fact is, you cannot talk someone into believing differently than how they feel. Especially if they are too closed-minded to listen. The fact of the matter is no one here, regardless of how pompous they are, knows if an embryo is "human" or not. So in that sense, it doesnt matter.

Since there is no point trying to prove my feelings on this, I will just state my opinion in support.

Just because you say that it doesnt behave like a human doesnt mean isnt. You say it cant express itself like a human being. In that sense, neither can babies. They can express themselves in very limited ways. Are babies non-human? What of people with mental disabilities? They also cannot express themselves in anything other than the most basic of emotions. Are they un-human? I think not.

I believe differently than alot of people do on some STRONG issues. Rightfully so. Without seeing another point, you no longer grow or learn. But with all thats in me, i cannot see condoning the "extermination" of something that is/could become fully human. Ive tried seeing both sides, but cannot.

Why cant we give the babies up for adotion? Someone will say that its a problem for the unwed mothers or what not. Well what about the future human that was cut short? Was it not a problem? An inconvience to be denied life? Wheres the choice for the definite future human?

Pro-"Choice" says that theyre not human so its not wrong. Ok. I see your point and understand where youre coming from. But what if youre wrong? What if were committing murder on our own species? What if were tiny Hitlers killing what we consider "inferior" or "un-human" just as he did the jews? Not a transfer, just a thought.

Ah well, whatever. Im sure there'll be attacks against this and rightfully so. Just try and see someone elses side. I have. Thanks.

nova_satori · September 29, 2003

Isn't it great to beat a dead horse?

daniel · September 29, 2003

You're either pro-life or pro-death.

What does that make those pro-lifers who shoot abortion doctors?

KrustyKidd · September 30, 2003

Hi Nuclear, I have a question. Supposing abortion was universally outlawed and in it's place a new, legal option was made. This option would give the mother the right after birth, to take the child (up to an age of one year old) to a clinic where if she chose she could have the child put to sleep. Now on a quiet street, every now and then a woman walks into a clinic holding a baby and an hour later comes out holding nothing. What would you do? Would you write on the forum how you did not like this, would you protest in front of government buildings. Or, like me would you take an active role and physiclly stop this from happening? It would not be hard, simply run up and snatch the baby from the woman's arms. To me there would be no way that I could walk by one of those clinics knowing a baby was being killed without taking physical action. How about you?

Are you supporting those who would kill abortionists? If there are peaceful means to prevent it form happening, by all means do it. Snatch the baby to safety, but going in and murdering people, even if they commit abortion, is just as wrong as what they are doing.

I must say, I have no symphathy for that girl who took RU 486...she tried to kill her baby and got what she deserved....

No, I, in my hypothetical world with it's anti abortion/up to one yr old termination law gave you an ilegal, but fairly begnign action to save these infants. Ggrabbing them out of harms way and carrying them off. I did not mention violence although myself I would probably include that in my options as there is no way I could walk past a place where an infant was being put to sleep. So, to what extent would you break the law in my hypothetical world?

Nuclear · September 30, 2003

A infant, although capable of being separated from it's mother, can not live without it's mother, or something to supplement it. Breast milk or as a last resort formula is all but required for an infant. Also, it needs to be taken care of. Again, it's a different stage of development.

Anyone who supports abortion is supporting murder for the sake of convenience. The Nazis viewed the Jews as subhuman and murdered them for conveninece. This isn't exactly genocide, but it's murder either way. You end a life.

If you get a new computer and run your car over it, it's dead. You killed your computer. Just because it isn't turned on yet means nothing.

Go ahead and continue to support murder. I figured liberals would support the rights of an unborn child.

djpark121 · September 30, 2003

Differences between a fetus and an egg:

The fetus has organs such as a pumping heart, while the egg does not.

The fetus has arms, legs, and a head, while the egg does not.

The fetus looks human, while, the egg looks like an egg.

The fetus consumes food; the egg doesn't.

These are just some of the obvious differences between those two. This is why abortion in the embryo stage wouldn't be killing a human. Like Derek poitned out, a fetus is human, but the egg is not.

As for the computer analogy, I can only shake my head.

Black Dog · September 30, 2003

I've always been of two minds of the abortion issue, but a girl I know had this to say on the subject, which I think speaks volumes.

First of all, NO ONE has the right to decide whether a woman should abort a child or not and don’t tell me about killing children. I’ve watched them die from the inside out. There are thousands of kids waiting for adoption, thousands more being passed around the Foster Care system, getting sexually abused, beaten, emotionally scared, and beyond repair. Worse yet, there are thousands more that are living in poverty IN THIS COUNTRY, who are neglected, physically and emotionally harmed, subjected to lackluster parents who don’t give a shit where they are or if they’ve eaten or washed. There are some children that live off Cheerios because there isn’t anything else. These children fall under the radar because their living situation, interpreted via nicotine driven overweight social workers with issues of self worth, don’t classify them as needing immediate attention. So they leave them to fight for themselves. People don’t understand the dire state of the social system in “the best country in the world” until they’ve experienced it first hand. It’s a catastrophe.
Is it not murder to allow generations of slow and painful existence thrive without hope?

And yet some of abortion's most vocal critics are also ones who rail against the "nanny state", support the death penalty and are ardent supporters of the western war machine.

Hypocrites.

Ronda · October 1, 2003

those lines convolute the very nature of biology and philosophy.
just because something will become human doesnt mean thus it is human.

This continues to baffle me, Riff. You, a geneticist, should probably concede that at the very least GENETICALLY, a fertilised implanted human egg is nothing BUT human. It's preposterous for you, of all people, to argue the "half human/potential human" argument.

Blackdog, I see the point you are making, however, does that mean that every person who is having a rough time would be better off dead? Every kid not raised in a suburban, middle class well-adjusted family (assuming that's not an oxymoron) should've been killed before hand? You cannot predict which kids will be abused nor if the abuse will permanently damage them should it occur.

I was abused as a child/teen until I left home. I was pregnant at 19. My first son was a prime candidate for abuse, poverty and abortion. I did not abort, I do not abuse and he is very well looked after. Although my life looked very bleak to social workers I saw during my teens, I am doing very well now and raising great kids. I would prefer not to have been looked at as a poster child for abortion in my younger years, if you see what I mean.

And by the way, all those kids that your friend was talking about.... their mothers had the option to abort and did not. Abortion does not prevent child abuse. In fact, I'm pretty sure saline and butchering count as abuse in their own right.

Other than that, I've pretty much said all I need to say on this subject elsewhere on this forum.

SirRiff · October 1, 2003

This continues to baffle me, Riff. You, a geneticist, should probably concede that at the very least GENETICALLY, a fertilised implanted human egg is nothing BUT human. It's preposterous for you, of all people, to argue the "half human/potential human" argument.

yes, genetically a fertalized egg is of human species. is it a human being? i dont know. but i would say you cant automatically give it the rights of a sentient human being just because it is genetically identical.

i think the thresehold for the rights of humanity must include some other criteria, else i could clone some sickly version of a human and claim it deserves free health care because its genetically the same as the human it came from.

society must decide what rights to give to potential human beings. potential life. potential intelligence. potential sentience.

personally, i think abortion is irresponsable and wrong most times (obvious exceptions), but i refuse to dissolve the basic consideration of humanity and examination of what we consider life and just state it should be outlawed completely

ideally we would reduce the need for abortion in society.

sirRiff

Derek · October 1, 2003

And yet some of abortion's most vocal critics are also ones who rail against the "nanny state", support the death penalty and are ardent supporters of the western war machine.
Hypocrites.

most of this analogy can also be reversed black dog

And yet some of abortion's most vocal supporters are also ones who hate the death penalty and hate the western war machine

Hypocrites.

Black Dog · October 1, 2003

And yet some of abortion's most vocal supporters are also ones who hate the death penalty and hate the western war machine

But we're not the one's saying "abortion is murder!" Where's the inconsitency?

Derek · October 1, 2003

But are you the ones saying The death penalty is murder?

No it isn't, its killing people who have killed. People who kill(wrongly) should be killed. Its just that simple.

Its just how you view something, i view abortion as murder, but i don't view the death penalty as murder.

The babies being aborted didn't kill someone, did they?

You view it as the death penalty is murder, but not abortion.

If you look at these two views, common sense would tell you that killing children, over killing murderer's is just plain insane.

djpark121 · October 1, 2003

I agree with Derek. The death penalty isn't murder; it's a contribution to the goodwill of society. Murderers have to be rid of. Most do not have a sudden conversion and decide one day to stop murdering. Once a murderer, always a murderer and unless you can lock them up for life which costs a lot of money.

Abortion however, isn't murder if done at the right time. It's extremely clear that an embryo isn't a human and to get rid of it isn't considered murder.

Ronda · October 1, 2003

DJ,

I think many fetologists or embryologists would disagree with your statement. It is not obvious at all. By the time a woman knows she is pregnant, it isn't like two cells in a petri dish. I had an ultrasound at 6 weeks (when most women would find out) and my son looked like a little worm, admittedly... however, there was clearly a head and more clearly a strong, beating heart. The most obvious feature was actually the heart beating. It was amazing. It's not an inanimate lump of nothing.

nova_satori · October 2, 2003

The US's death penalty is flawed. Severely. If you want a large (8 page) research paper, I can e-mail you one.

It details the history of the penalty in the US, life sentence vs. death, bias, innocent killed, moral dilemmas, effectivness, local economical impact, ect. Unless the penalty trials are reformed, it has no place in American Justice.

Pellaken · October 2, 2003

you are not "alive" untill you are capable of biological self-sustaining yourself.

djpark121 · October 2, 2003

nova, I'd certainly like your 8-page research paper on why the US death penalty is flawed.

Ronda, forgive me. I in my ignorance had no idea that at 6 weeks the baby had such visible distinctions. In that case, yes, abortion is wrong because the fetus has a pumping heart and distinct human features.