Liberal Leadership Debate in Toronto

[August1991]

While working on something else, I watched these debates on the cpac.ca website. Very good streaming quality and I particularly liked the option "parquet" for the audio which meant I didn't have to flip back and forth to avoid the interpretation.

My impressions.

Rae has the confidence, gravity, ego and ability to command a political party. He dominated the proceedings like an old bull moose dominates a harem.

Dion's closing speech was very strong and his references to the Liberal Party put him clearly above the others.

Volpe's French is better than I expected. Dion's English is worse. Rae and Ignatieff are not perfect in French but they are both good. Kennedy's French is bad although he didn't say much in French.

Brison rightly noted that there was no debate specifically about the economy although the decided topics all revolved around economics (with the possible exception of foreign policy). I don't know which is worse: listening to lawyers mangle economic ideas or listening to Anglophones mangle French syntax.

Understandably, it was a Harper hatefest and I got very tired listening to Liberals compare Harper to Bush (Dion/Rae did it several times) and how "we don't want that kind of divisive politics in Canada". Only a Liberal can argue against divisiveness by essentially denigrating a large part of the Canadian population who happen to be Conservative.

I never hear Tories saying that Liberals are somehow less Canadian or are not entitled to their viewpoint. And Tories don't make phoney, holier-than-thou claims about how inclusive Canada is. Celebrate diversity? Right.

Did Ignatieff come out OK? Rae got in a nice little shot and then Ignatieff fumbled the response by saying, "C'mon Bob. You've known me for forty years. You know that's false." I thought Ignatieff's closing speech was flakey in a Governor Moonbeam way: "Everyone in this room is a dreamer. We all dream about clean water, pure air. We dream about a better world.... "

Rae and Ignatieff are in a fight to the finish. Dion made an effort to appear like a chairman of the board.

Anyway, who can beat Harper? Dunno. Who will win? Dunno. But it's gonna be either Rae, Ignatieff or Dion.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Anyway, who can beat Harper? Dunno. Who will win? Dunno. But it's gonna be either Rae, Ignatieff or Dion.

I'm wondering if any of them can. Still think Rae has the best chance, but still an underdog.

I got a kick out of Martha Hall Findlay being 'scrummed'. She actually had to pester the reporters to ask her more than a couple lame, standard questions.

[August1991]

I got a kick out of Martha Hall Findlay being 'scrummed'. She actually had to pester the reporters to ask her more than a couple lame, standard questions.

She unfortunately stepped in and broke up the fight between Ignatieff and Rae just when it started to get interesting.

I noticed that at the end of their segment, Rae pointedly shook Ignatieff's and Findlay's hand.

Anyway, who can beat Harper? Dunno. Who will win? Dunno. But it's gonna be either Rae, Ignatieff or Dion.

I'm wondering if any of them can. Still think Rae has the best chance, but still an underdog.

I think so too. Rae has the royal jelly.

The thing is that neither Rae nor Ignatieff has enough to get 50% so that means the convention will look for a compromise and that can only be Dion.

I think Dion fumbled his attempt to call Ignatieff on his newfound environmentalism. (Dion was right to note that it's easy to promise money and that Ignatieff has never sat around a cabinet table when a decision has to be made.) Dion seriously fumbled his attempt to paint Rae as a tax-and-spend NDPer (which Rae is).

I wasn't impressed with Dion's performance until the closing statement. I'm more certain than ever that Dion is now in many people's Number Two slot. Many die-hard Liberals, hearing that speech, went away with a tugging feeling that Dion is the only real Liberal up on the stage.

[Biblio Bibuli]

While working on something else, I watched these debates on the cpac.ca website. Very good streaming quality and I particularly liked the option "parquet" for the audio which meant I didn't have to flip back and forth to avoid the interpretation.

My impressions.

Rae has the confidence, gravity, ego and ability to command a political party. He dominated the proceedings like an old bull moose dominates a harem.

Dion's closing speech was very strong and his references to the Liberal Party put him clearly above the others.

Volpe's French is better than I expected. Dion's English is worse. Rae and Ignatieff are not perfect in French but they are both good. Kennedy's French is bad although he didn't say much in French.

Brison rightly noted that there was no debate specifically about the economy although the decided topics all revolved around economics (with the possible exception of foreign policy). I don't know which is worse: listening to lawyers mangle economic ideas or listening to Anglophones mangle French syntax.

Understandably, it was a Harper hatefest and I got very tired listening to Liberals compare Harper to Bush (Dion/Rae did it several times) and how "we don't want that kind of divisive politics in Canada". Only a Liberal can argue against divisiveness by essentially denigrating a large part of the Canadian population who happen to be Conservative.

I never hear Tories saying that Liberals are somehow less Canadian or are not entitled to their viewpoint. And Tories don't make phoney, holier-than-thou claims about how inclusive Canada is. Celebrate diversity? Right.

Did Ignatieff come out OK? Rae got in a nice little shot and then Ignatieff fumbled the response by saying, "C'mon Bob. You've known me for forty years. You know that's false." I thought Ignatieff's closing speech was flakey in a Governor Moonbeam way: "Everyone in this room is a dreamer. We all dream about clean water, pure air. We dream about a better world.... "

Rae and Ignatieff are in a fight to the finish. Dion made an effort to appear like a chairman of the board.

Anyway, who can beat Harper? Dunno. Who will win? Dunno. But it's gonna be either Rae, Ignatieff or Dion.

August - So sorry. I was so excited about putting out my own impressions on the debate that I didn't notice you'd already started a thread on the subject. I should go into politics as I obviously have the required ego.

As to your points:

I agree about the Harper bashing. They didn't seem to be oriented as to time & place. They were not running for the PM seat at this debate, they were running for the leadership of the Liberal party. The only bashing that should have gone on was of the other candidates & why they were superior to a particular candidate. And only Iggy asked for our vote ... as Liberal leader. Not PM.

I disagree that Dion's constant references to the Liberal party put him above the others. The party is trying to "renew" itself & sell itself as an improvement over the old party hacks who were clearly getting too comfortable & stagnant. His references to Chretien? Miscue, in my opinion if he wants to win.

And a final agreement ... Iggy & Rae in a fight to the end.

And Rae decimated Ontario's economy. I rest my case.

PS - And should Dion manage to sneak in do you seriously believe that Bob will betray his good friend? NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

[Ricki Bobbi]

I wasn't impressed with Dion's performance until the closing statement. I'm more certain than ever that Dion is now in many people's Number Two slot. Many die-hard Liberals, hearing that speech, went away with a tugging feeling that Dion is the only real Liberal up on the stage.

Maybe but Dion is good news for the Conservatives in the next election.

Definitely not beloved in his native Quebec. His poor pronunciation in English is going to be a strike against him.

Chretien got away with it as part of his p'tit gar persona. Don't see Dion getting away wit it so easily. Especially when Harper's French is far, far better than Dion's English.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Dion is good news for the Conservatives in the next election.

You told me that Ignatieff was good news for the Conservatives.

Is there anybody that ISN'T good news?

Let me guess. .......... Dryden?

[Ricki Bobbi]

You told me that Ignatieff was good news for the Conservatives.

Is there anybody that ISN'T good news?

Let me guess. .......... Dryden?

Bob Rae. I have said that many, many times.

[Biblio Bibuli]

You told me that Ignatieff was good news for the Conservatives.

Bob Rae. I have said that many, many times.

My mistake, I guess.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....mp;#entry141697

[August1991]

Rae's post debate response was just as good as in the debate. (I don't know if Ignatieff doesn't understand debate, doesn't understand media-driven modern politics or maybe he just doesn't understand. His Dad gave him a name and a BA and his Mom gave him a way with women. That seems to be it.)

When Rae said:

“We have to choose our words carefully when we talk about foreign policy,” Mr. Rae said, in a clear shot at Mr. Ignatieff's “war crime” remark.

Ignatieff took the bait and answered:

“All well and good, but we also have to know where we stand,” Mr. Ignatieff replied. “You voted against the extension of the mission. Now you're saying something different. . . . I actually don't know where you stand on this issue.”

Mr. Rae retorted: “For a guy who's changed his mind three times in a week . . .,” but whoops and cheers from the crowd cut him off.

“You know better than that. You've known me for 40 years,” Mr. Ignatieff said. He raised the old friendship because Mr. Rae was “stirring it a bit,” Mr. Ignatieff told reporters after the debate.”We're friends, he was stirring it a bit, and I wanted to cut him off,” he said.

Mr. Rae's after-debate assessment was that an old friendship should not prevent lively exchanges.

“I don't think I was stirring pots. I was just having a good discussion. I mean, if he thinks this is stirring the pot, what does he think Question Period is like? This is not a tea party here,” he said. “People say things, and they get called for it.”

G & M

Ignatieff can't even hold his own in debate. A Trudeau second coming? Huh? Trudeau would have put Rae in place with a shrug, and Trudeau's English was more elegant than Dion's French.

[Remiel]

The kind of odd thing about the Rae government that I heard from my Dad last night was that as he remembers it, the Liberals and Conservatives were still thought to be the contenders, and the New Democratic Party win kind of came out of the blue. Rae may have been caught in a problem of the party, not just him in particular. They just didn't expect to actually have to rule, and when they did, they were unprepared. Big mistake. Anyway, I am going to start a thread in provincial politics on comparison of the different provinces during that era, so as not to hijack this thread too badly.

[Guest Warwick Green]

I wasn't impressed with Dion's performance until the closing statement. I'm more certain than ever that Dion is now in many people's Number Two slot. Many die-hard Liberals, hearing that speech, went away with a tugging feeling that Dion is the only real Liberal up on the stage.

Maybe but Dion is good news for the Conservatives in the next election.

Definitely not beloved in his native Quebec. His poor pronunciation in English is going to be a strike against him.

Chretien got away with it as part of his p'tit gar persona. Don't see Dion getting away wit it so easily. Especially when Harper's French is far, far better than Dion's English.

For those reasons and the fact I am sure they don't want another Quebecer Dion's chances are very slim. Only if Ig and Rae self-destruct over the next few weeks does Dion have a chance. That could happen to Iggy but Rae is not likely to do that. In fact, I am already resigned to Rae winning.

[apollo19]

I only watched the debate for a bit because of time constraints, but I got the following impressions about some of the candidates:

Ignatieff sounds good, but if you listen to him closely you can see that he has no substance -- he just has a nice first line to draw people in, but after that any critical thinker will realize he is full of it. He may be picked for his ability to turn on a dime with regards to his positions, but I don't think that would work against Harper.

Rae sounds somewhat passionate in a debate, but he still seems like somewhat of an outsider -- the example here is when Dion was defending the Liberals record in the '90s and Rae was on the other side. Rae may win, but I don't think he will have the support of the Martin wing of the party (it seems the Chretien/Martin split still exists, although muted for this race so far).

Kennedy and Dion both have large weaknesses -- their ability to speak in the other national language. I think the two could come together at the convention, with Kennedy being Dion's right-hand man, which would likely draw enough support to win the leadership. I don't know what to think of Dion's policies -- his seem like spending plans, but then he throws in a random "fiscal discipline" so I don't know which one to believe.

The one candidate who I wish would win is Brison -- he really has good ideas, but I don't think he has enough (if any) roots in the party. Maybe in another 10 years or so when the Liberal "establishment" decides he is loyal enough and speaks good enough French he will be picked. I was very disappointed with the lack of talk about economic issues, as in the end everything comes down to the balance sheet. Oh well, maybe in another 5 years...

[Figleaf]

I never hear Tories saying that Liberals are somehow less Canadian or are not entitled to their viewpoint.

!!!

Clearly you never associate with Conservatives, and you must not read these Mapleleafweb.com forums either.

[Michael Hardner]

Clearly you never associate with Conservatives, and you must not read these Mapleleafweb.com forums either.

Sorry, but Auguste is correct. It's far more often to hear even Conservatives to say that Canada is a Liberal country than to hear Liberals accept that Canadians can be against things such as multiculturalism and gay marriage.

[Figleaf]

Clearly you never associate with Conservatives, and you must not read these Mapleleafweb.com forums either.

Sorry, but Auguste is correct. It's far more often to hear even Conservatives to say that Canada is a Liberal country than to hear Liberals accept that Canadians can be against things such as multiculturalism and gay marriage.

Augie is full of *$&*!

You can't go ten minutes listening to Conservatives without hearing that all Liberals are crooks, anyone who disagrees with Bush is insane or evil, agnostics are moral criminals, Natives are sucking the blood of the country, homosexuals are child-molesters, and the poor are lazy degenerates.

[Rue]

Bob Rae clearly has two strikes against him. One he ran a disasterous regime in Ontario proving he was incompetent. Two, he is an NDP'er who recently switched. He can not win an election. His record in Ontario will cause the Liberals to be unable to win the majority of seats in Ontario. He just has too much baggage and it shows how desperate the Liberals are if this is who they are going to turn to. So who does that leave. Ignatieff has shown everyone that he is a complete and utter idiot. He is thin skinned and unable to think on his feet. He comes from a controlled aniseptic environment where he was used to speaking without being

confronted or questioned and did not have to think about what he was saying. His arrogance and belief that he is smarter then everyone has shown he is simply a light-weight full of hot air and full of academia but contains absolutely no common sense, basic communication and social skills or vision. I mean lety us get real he gives a speech about "dreamers'? What a pathetic superficial cardboard mannequin.

So that leaves us with who? Dion is a brittle bureaucrat who can't speak English and is too quick to apologize for Chretien. He will never sell in Quebec or out West.

Ken Dryden? No one listens to him. Gerard Kennedy? Talk about puff pastry or junk food. Talk about a light-weight who tries to get by with a deep voice and trying to pose like a Sears model. He is a joke.

The entire list of candidates are a joke. Years of having Chretien put a strangle-hold on the party choked off any fresh blood and it will take a lot more infusion then this bunch to resurrect this party.

At this point I believe the Liberals will make the mistake of turning to Rae sensing Ignatieff is a mistake and the other candidates just are not capable of leading. Rae will squeek in and Ignatieff will act like a spoiled brat and quit after one election. Rae will sit in opposition content with that job for 6 years and then eventually some new blood will come in. Rae will never be elected Prime Minister of Canada and I doubt he wants that. He has always preferred being in the Opposition and no one was more suprised then him when he got elected Premier. People like Bob Rae are great at opposing.

Harper basically will easily win the next election with a majority. The LIberals will be reduced to a rump party like the NDP and Block.

[Figleaf]

My roundup:

[A careful and well considered post deleted in protest because of the terrible treatment dished out to people by the admin of maple leaf web.]

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[August1991]

Augie is full of *$&*!

My point was that several of the Liberal candidates repeated that Canada is an inclusive country that celebrates diversity - but the diversity stops short of including the Tory American wannabes.

IOW, if you're not a Liberal, you're not Canadian. And the Liberal definitions of diversity and inclusiveness only extend to anyone who is a Liberal (or maybe NDP).

I have never heard Stephen Harper ever question the loyalty of a Liberal politician or suggest that they are not Canadian.

Given his writings, CV and use of the word "we", it is unthinkable that Ignatieff would ever be acceptable if he were a Conservative leader. Stephane Dion is a French citizen. Pierre Pettigrew spent more time in Paris than Ottawa and the GG was also a French citizen. All get free passes because they are Liberals.

God forbid if Stephen Harper had an American uncle or a condo in Arizona, like Chuck Guite.

I frankly think the Liberal Party is hypocritical but that's hardly an original opinion.

[Remiel]

I still don't quite understand why we can have a general election in a month and a half, and it takes almost a year for a party to elect a leader...

[Figleaf]

Augie is full of *$&*!

Given his writings, CV and use of the word "we", it is unthinkable that Ignatieff would ever be acceptable if he were a Conservative leader. Stephane Dion is a French citizen. Pierre Pettigrew spent more time in Paris than Ottawa and the GG was also a French citizen. All get free passes because they are Liberals.

Sorry, but I think that's a loopy opinion. You think that if a Conservative was a French citizen she would be reviled because of that? (Well, probably by her own party.)