Merger Proposal Expected Today

[westcoast99]

Harper says he expects a merger proposal to occur by the end of the day, to the Progressive Conservatives.

MacKay says a deal will only come with the agreement of his caucus.

Harper says Alliance-Tory deal very near

[Neal.F.]

I'll be very blunt. If his caucus does NOT accept the deal, a deal carefully hammered between people of goodwill from both parties, especially Mazankowski, Bill Davis and Loyola hearn of their own party, people who have demonstrated high ethical standards, and can be , by no means considered sell-outs, the PC party will die. The Alliance will take a beating, but the PCs would be obliterated, and deservedly so.

AND we will have one-party-rule, probably for the balance of the lifetimes on most people who post here.

If they don't dance together, they'll hang together.....

There's your future, perpetual Liberal government, with NDP opposition.

If Scott Brison and Andre Bachand aren't happy, they are free to leave at any time. Mr Bachand, before he calls the CA rednecks, should remember that if Keith Martin can have a home in that party, then surely there will room for himself in a new entity.

As for Brison, He had better realize that unless he wants to dream of being FinMin while scowling at the Liberals from the opposition benches, perhaps as a member of a 4th or 5th party, he too, had better sign on.

Every conservative government ever elected ij this country has been a coalition of FisCons and SoCons. He'd better learn to take some water in his Screech.

[Rob1963]

I'd like to know which governments have been fiscal and social conservatives in this country!

[Neal.F.]

The Mulroney government was the traditional FisCon/SoCon coalition. It fell apart partly because the So-con faction felt screwed over when Mulroney tossed the abortion issue to the courts to decide, among other slights. Mulroney had campaigned out west in '84 as a pro-lifer.

The Reform Party and the Christian Heritage Party were formed partly by those who felt the Tories had disenfranchised them. Both were formed prior to the 1988 election, and in that election, the Reformers won 2% and the CHP 1%. And had the Tories not turned that election into a referendum on free trade, those totals would have been higher, and the Tories may well have lost their majority. If you don't believe me, look what happened in the by-election that took place only a few weeks after the election. The then MP for Beaver River, a Mr. Dhamer passed away a day or two after thelection, and a by-election was held, and was won by Deborah Grey, and the rest is history.

Look what happened to the Ontario Tories when Ernie Eves effectively abandoned the So-con wing. I believe this is one reason why they will fare so poorly next thursday, is that nobody believes Mr Eves' claims to a social conservative rebirth.

[dnsfurlan]

Its hard to get a read on what in the world is really going on with these talks.

Harper has been extremely positive for the past week. Mackay has been anywhere from resistant to more concilliatory, depending on the day and hour. And reports on what is actually happening around the negotiating table have been conflicting.

One report claimed Mazinkowski grabbed Reid's tie (I think it was Reid). Another said that the Tory negotiators have not come to the table with firm proposals of their own. Another claimed that the CA team was a bunch of bush-leagers.

It really is hard to get a sense of where all of this going.

However, having said that, something does seem to be pushing this process forward. The media claims that its a realization by both parties of their helplessness against a Martin juggernaut. I'm not so sure about that. Listening to some Tories you would think that only they alone are still capable of forming a credible alternative to the Liberals.

Maybe something behind the scenes is driving all of this. Mackay seems to be along for the ride. Harper may be trying to look as though he were in control of the dynamics.

Maybe some day soon we'll get a better idea of whats really going on behind the scenes. Harper sais he wants a deal by the end of the day. Lets see what actually happens. It should tell us a thing or two about who's been telling the truth in all of this.

[Neal.F.]

I think if anything derails this process, it will be the Red Tories.

And if they do, they will have signed the death warrant for that party. So either way, the Alliance comes out on top. They are the ones who give the appearance of wanting to make something happen, and that just may save their skin. Especially if a few Tory MPs from downeast go over.

Joe Clark is lame duck anyway. He's not running again.

If the process succeeds, great! if it fails, the remainder of the Blue Tories will make the move, since refusal is akin to death.

Will it make a differecne at teh end of the day? A full mergr with leadeership contest could result in Paul Martin's world crashing down. If they talks fail, the CA will survive, but as a shadow of its current self. The Tories WILL be obliterated. We will have a MAssive Martin win, with NDP opposition.

That's the price of Failure. And we will have the Red Tories to thank.

[theWatcher]

It seems to me that the Alliance is trying to merge while the Tories are having a meeting to see if it would be feasible to have a meeting to see if they should merge.

The Tory strategy for the last 10 years has been to try to hang on until the Reform/Alliance party collapses and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

If there is no merger the Alliance will still get about 50 seats, theres no way the NDP will come out ahead of them. Where's Jack going to get 35 more seats from?

[Neal.F.]

Latest numbers I've heard from BC show the NDP threatening a big comeback there. They and the Liberals were neck and neck with the Alliance running third. NDP is up in Sask. too. Don't forget, in '88, the NDP took 19 of 28 BC seats. They are poised to add to their totals in Ontario too.

Meanwhile the Alliance is going to have trouble holding 50 seats if they take a hit in BC and Sask.

In any case, failure to merge does not bode well. The merger gives the right a shot at mike harris, at least 120 seats, and possibly government.

[dnsfurlan]

I think the die-hard Red Tories would be perfectly happy with an NDP official opposition.

Red Tories are happy any time conservatism recieves a blow.

I think one of the beliefs of Red Tories is one-party rule. They basically allowed the Liberals to rule for most of the twentieth century, they admittedly mimmick most of Liberal policy, and have been the greatest obstacle to forming a united front against the federal Liberals.

For a people who consider themselves to be so "tolerant" they have no tolerance with people who actually hold differing views from them.

I also think Red Tories are just Liberals who don't know how to get and hold power.

I hate saying this stuff. But just listen to some of the comments being made by these guys reacting to talks of merger with the CA. They treat CAs as though they are some kind of second-class citizens in this country.

Tolerance means more than having everyone agree exactly with what you think.

Lets try to be a bit more open-minded about all this.

[Neal.F.]

Have you ever wondered whether Red Tories are nothing more than a Liberal plot to retain perpetual power?

I guarantee you that had Brian Mulroney not carried out his takeover of the party from Joe Clark, John Turner, patronage appointments and bum-patting notwithstanding, would have had Geills call in the interior decorators for 24 Sussex.

The CA seems to have come to terms with the fact that unless they can get all conservatives together , they will not be coming to power anytime within the nextv 20-30 years, and most Blue tories feel teh same way. It's just the Red ones squawking about how the party will be swept to power again as if it's a matter of rotation.

There's no shame in talking merger. The Conservatives in Quebec did a merger, and the result was the Union Nationale which held power for 32 of the next 40 years after a Liberal stranglehold that endured from 1896-1930 or so.

The Conservatives' merger with the Progressives resulted in a return to power for Tories after being reduced to a rump by Mackenzie King. Even the NDP was born of a merger, or more accurately a coalition, after the CCF had run its course.

If the Red tories don't want to acknowledge the reality that they'll never win, then they should be gone. Let them be honest with themselves and go join the Liberals, or for some, the NDP. (Now, from where did Joe Clark draw his one convert after becoming leader again? answer: Angela Vautour {Beausejour Petitcodiac} defected to the Tories from the NDP.) Enough said.

[Craig Read]

Neal, good observation:

Have you ever wondered whether Red Tories are nothing more than a Liberal plot to retain perpetual power?

According to the Post, the difficulty is now over the method in selecting the leader. Harris is a natural choice and a good one. Like all action oriented, b.s. cutting leaders the Liberal media and elites will call him stupid. Apparently in the real world ie. not the Post Modern world espoused by sniveling overpaid Profs and Swivel Servants, men who accomplish and achieve are to be denigrated.

Nevertheless Harris would challenge the Libs in a very serious manner.

CBC nonsense and prattle notwithstanding, as long as he stays on message and is consistent with intelligent policies.

[Pellaken]

we will have a NDP official opposition

the PC's and CA will form a coalition to beat them out in terms of seats

and the merger will happen then, based on what they've worked out this summer/fall

[sir_springer]

Good GAWD!!!

What the hell is it with all the end of the world, doom and gloom crap anyway??? How bloody defeatist can you people possibly get!!!

Martin is a fricking illusion and a bust. He's a total fraud!

Something between 55,000 and 61,000 Liberals were interested enough in the leadership race to actually vote. That's out of a supposed 531,000 of them.

This whole thing with the Libs and Martin is a farce!

The NDP are going to make a come back in BC???????

That's about the stupidist thing I've heard this year. Hell, in ten years! The couple of twits the NDP have for MPs in this province will be damn lucky to hold on to their ridings, forget about anyone else joinging them.

Jack Layton is a doofus. No one cares about Jack Layton. He's a joke, a wannabe with nowhere to go but down.

Harper has been brilliant throughout this entire process. He's got MacKay pushed back into a corner so tight, he can hardly find room to fart.

Last night MacKay looked like he was ready to puke on command...and Harper looked he was just getting started.

The CA in trouble???

I hardly think so.

You people gotta quit believing everything you read in the Liberal Leftist press in this country, and start using your own heads for a change.

I cannot remember when I've seen such a concerted effort to brainwash Canadians into accepting the inevitability of a particular government, regardless of who it happens to be.

COME ON!!! WAKE UP!!!

Martin is a sitting duck extraordinaire! He and his party is guilty of more crap and corruption than any other in living memory...and we still ain't seen everything yet to be seen, either.

You think Harper...of all people...is going to have a tough time blasting holes through this fraud's butt with the truckload of ammo he's got to direct at this SOB???

Quit believing what you're being told to believe and start using your own GD heads for a change!!!

SSSSSHHHHHEEEEEEEEEESSSSSHHHHHH!!!!!

[dnsfurlan]

Springer,

I know where you're coming from and I often feel the same way myself. But confronting the established dialogue in this country can be tiring.

Take the Ontario election, for example. In the TV debate, Howard Hampton spent an hour and a half yelling down his opponents about the merits of public Hydro and health care and he was widely praised as having won the debates. If he had given that kind of performance in Texas he would have been laughed off the stage and dismissed as a screaming Communist wannabee.

My point is that the nature of public dialogue in this country, even after eight years of Mike Harris in Ontario, is such that people still don't seem to question the notion of government being able to solve all the problems encountered by society.

There's only so much protest and counter-arguing a person can do in the face of this. Canadians have become very comfortable with the idea of Big Government which is supposed to take care of them. Ignoring this fact can result in what happened to Stockwell Day a couple of years back.

Now, this is in no way a suggestion for surrender. Quite the contrary. I think conservatives need to be dilligent and always hopeful that their message is the right one and will be heard in the course of time. But pretending that statism hasn't settled into the the normal outlook of most Canadians I think is naive.

It takes time to change the accepted discourse in this country. You still hear conservatives referred to as far-right in this country. Heck, even conservatives allow this kind of abuse in the language.

Hating to bring the States into this, Rush Limbaugh said that when he first started doing his radio thing back in the mid-eighties, criticizing liberal policies and mocking their leaders, people honestly thought he was going to be thrown in jail for his anti-establishment speech.

And here in Canada the media seems to be getting more liberal, not less.

I think someone like Harper is well cognizant of all this. What this means in terms of an electoral strategy is yet to be seen. He's even got Ralph Klein shooting his mouth of saying Mike Harris would be a much better leader.

One thing is for certain. He still hasn't done anything to put a dent into the Martin Liberal machine. Something's got to give before you can expect conservatives to be a bit more hopeful. My hope is that Harper has something up his sleave. Or that he paves the way for something else on the Right. But nothing so far has changed the course of public dialogue in this country. And that can be discouraging, to say the least.

[Mr. Chater]

I believe that the Leader should now be Mike Harris. No questions asked. Because he has backup from other MP's and Premier's saying that he is the better man for the job. he is a strong man and stays strong with every word he says. Because MP's and Premier's are saying hes even beter then the current two leaders, there shouldn't be a problem with Mike Harris getting it. I also too think that it's time for a new face. Harper and Mackay are not bad, but it's old now. Mike Harris i think is best fit for the job. All we have to do is wait the conflict out and hope that Mr. Harris gets it.

If all goes well...in advance...goodbye Mr. Martin..

[Craig Read]

MC, i agree, he has the right credentials, contacts and ideals and importantly enough courage to do what needs to be done.

[Mr. Chater]

Well then lets hope for the best

[Greg]

Something to remember, never in the history of Canada has a premier made the jump between provincial politics to the postition of Prime Minister.

Another thing to think about, does Harper really want the job? What's the chance the Harper will decide not to continue if a leadership contest is proposed?

[sir_springer]

This is a sample of how the media will handle Harris, you can bet on it.

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The crypt door squeaks open

Charles Gordon

The Ottawa Citizen

Saturday, September 27, 2003

The complete unpredicta-bility and total wackiness of the Canadian political mind is one of the reasons it's so much fun to live here and why you'd never want to move to, say, Albania.

Or Alabama.

If we understand the situation correctly, voters in Ontario are about to throw out the Progressive Conservatives they've enjoyed for the past eight years. And why? Because of the legacy of Mike Harris, who was premier from 1995 to 2002.

Sure, some people will blame Ernie Eves when the Tories go down (if they go down), just as they blamed Kim Campbell when the federal Tories nearly disappeared under a Liberal avalanche in 1993.

But everybody knew who lost the 1993 election. It was Brian Mulroney. And everybody should know who's losing the 2003 Ontario election. It's Mike Harris.

Neoconservative true-believers have another answer, as they always do, pesky devils that they are. They will argue, when and if Eves loses, that Eves was not enough like Mike Harris, that he was too moderate, too much of a Bill Davis. But the true believers can't get off so lightly. They convinced Eves at the beginning of the campaign that he had to stop being moderate, had to go hard-right, particularly on social issues, that he had to reinvoke the Harris scare tactics on crime and welfare and immigration.

Look where it got him (assuming that's where it got him).

If Eves leads the Tories to defeat, it will be Mike Harris's defeat. All the things that have really angered Ontario voters, most notably the decline in education and health care, are the result of the Harris government, the Harris attitudes. Ontario voters could put up with that for awhile, when they thought deficit slashing was the top priority, when they thought the system was being administered competently. But they've had enough now. For the new millennium, the Harris attitude was too mean-spirited and it wasn't working all that well anyway.

If they awaken on Oct. 3 to read newspaper headlines about the end of Tory rule in Ontario, most Ontarians will breathe a sigh of relief. It's over, they will think. Our horrible nightmare is over. We have seen the last of Mike Harris.

But not so fast. Our national wackiness, the same cultural trait that has given us ice-fishing, poutine and the single point on the missed field goal, is producing a new Mike Harris, a federal Mike Harris.

This all has to do with uniting the right, one of our country's smaller continuing obsessions, something that gnaws at us like whatever happened to Paul Henderson.

Uniting the right is a kind of cult thing indulged in by people who, in a better world, would have a good set of electric trains in their basements. It has given us the Canadian Alliance, Stockwell Day, a never-ending supply of headlines in certain newspapers and the dedicated inattention of the majority of Canadians.

People lose track of it for large chunks of time. As far as they are concerned, the right is either united, or it decided not to unite, or it forgot about the whole thing -- it's hard to remember which until the issue suddenly re-emerges in headlines in the same newspapers.

That's happened this week, with high-powered secret meetings in Toronto, confused scrums in Ottawa, lots of dark muttering by young men in suits, and out of it all has emerged one name, the man who will lead the united right.

Mike Harris.

Not to be confused with the Mike Harris whose memory is currently leading his former party to defeat in Ontario.

Suddenly there are sightings of this new Mike Harris across our great land. He's all over the paper. In one day's edition there's a picture of him speaking in Banff on Thursday, a note that he was spotted in Ottawa on Wednesday, lurking on Parliament Hill, and a picture of him in Toronto on Tuesday.

If the most ridiculous series of unimaginable events takes place -- and who would bet against it? -- Mike Harris will lead a federal party that is sort of like the Canadian Alliance and a little like the Conservatives in an April election against Paul Martin's Liberals.

If Canada is as wacky as we suspect, Harris might win -- against Sheila Copps.

Imagine that. It takes eight years to get rid of the guy at Queen's Park, and then he shows up on Parliament Hill.

Of course, it won't happen. Too many people still hate the Harris policies. And the people who don't hate the Harris policies can probably vote for the federal Liberals, who have been implementing them for the past 10 years.

Still, in this unpredictable and wacky country, federal voters might like a prime minister who can work well with the re-elected Ernie Eves.

The Citizen's Charles Gordon writes here on Tuesdays and Saturdays and on the City Editorial Page on Thursdays.

© Copyright 2003 The Ottawa Citizen

[westcoast99]

Something to remember, never in the history of Canada has a premier made the jump between provincial politics to the postition of Prime Minister.

Another thing to think about, does Harper really want the job? What's the chance the Harper will decide not to continue if a leadership contest is proposed?

You're right Greg.

But here's something else to remember, Robert Stanfield made the jump to federal politics from being the Premier of Nova Scotia.

While he didn't win the 1968 election, in 1972 he was narrowly defeated in the closest election ever.

109 seats for Trudeau's Grits.

107 seats for Stanfield's Tories.

Besides, there's always room to make history.

[Craig Read]

Sir Springer, that is an incredible editorial from the Ottawa Citizen. I can't believe such puerile nonsense.

I am sure the CBC will follow up with stories of health care in crisis, the homeless, the students who actually must pay to be educated and the seniors starving to death in cold retirement homes.

If that passes for reporting in Canada then the climate against common sense is worse than I feared.

[Pellaken]

Something to remember, never in the history of Canada has a premier made the jump between provincial politics to the postition of Prime Minister.

Charles Tupper?

wasent he the 2nd PM?

recently no. but then again no one (other then stanfield) has made a stab at it.

[sir_springer]

Sir Springer, that is an incredible editorial from the Ottawa Citizen. I can't believe such puerile nonsense.

I am sure the CBC will follow up with stories of health care in crisis, the homeless, the students who actually must pay to be educated and the seniors starving to death in cold retirement homes.

If that passes for reporting in Canada then the climate against common sense is worse than I feared.

Believe it.

You think Stock Day was vulnerable and a target?

Harris would offer so many opportunities to the Liberals and their mutts in the media, I can easily imagine that they're just giggling over the prospect.

That's the problem with Harper for the media. He's relatively untouchable...which is why they instead are ignoring him as much as possible.

The fact is that Martin is incredibly vulnerable on his record...and his moment in Harper's sights is coming soon enough.

Why put someone up against him in Harris who is every bit as vulnerable and open to attack? Makes no sense whatsoever.

Harris is yesterday's news...and perhaps he deserves to be, too.

We have a brilliant man in Harper, as capable as anyone you can name.

There is absolutely no need to swap lanes now.

[Craig Read]

As everyone knows the talks failed. I said this before and will say it again - the PCs are far to the left of the CA, Mackay is a pathetic chief, and the Red Tories will not allow their influence to be sacrificed in a new party.

The CA should just focus on Reconfederation and its Western base. It is wasting time and energy on these talks.

[Pellaken]

craig, you are so short-sighted, its not funny.

you guys have 13/14ths of a deal worked out. you have to say, and I dont care HOW right wing you are, that the NDP has been consistant at about 15% in the polls, and if they draw enough votes away from the libs, they very well could become the official opposition. now THAT would unite the right, and with 95% of a deal already done, it wouldent take that long, now would it?