The Most Violent City In The Developed World

[Remiel]

At least I think it was CBC... in any case, that is kind of beside the point.

Apparently, Glasgow in the most violent city in the developed world, and it has a tradition of violence going back more than 40 years. Being pround of my Scottish ancestry, I naturally found this kind of disturbing. However, there is something really interesting to be learned here too. The problem isn't black immigrants, or Muslim immigrants, or Marsian immigrants... its young white guys fighting and killing each other in some truly insane and senseless gang violence... Over nothing more than being from different " turf " . The reporter in question said that she decided to look at gang violence in Glasgow, because when we see it here, we inevitably link it to the minorities involved in ours minds... She went there to show that race really has nothing to do with it. The places where all of the gang violence was the worst, were the poor neighbourhoods, the " projects " of Glasgow. Just gives a little more credence to proving that violence and poverty are inextricably linked. Not nearly so much to do with culture or race.

(As an aside... Are all white people from the British Isles acceptably referred to " anglo-saxons " these days? That's so... incorrect.)

[M.Dancer]

Saw it twice......amazing. You look at some these kids and think, what lovely young children. And then you realize they are cold heartless bastards who deserve a good kicking......

When my mother talked about our family and people, she would say there are two types of Gaels, the crazy and the mad.....these lads have no vision other than proving which is the most violent (cowardly)and who can shag the sluttiest slag.

[Liam]

Friends of mine traveled all over the British Isles recently and came home to say that of all the places they visited, Glasgow was the only city where they felt unsafe.

[M.Dancer]

Friends of mine traveled all over the British Isles recently and came home to say that of all the places they visited, Glasgow was the only city where they felt unsafe.

They obviously didn't travel far enough.....there are places in London that are worse than the suburbs of Winnipeg.......Liverpool.....Birmingham....

Glasgow is also one of the major stops on the european cultural tours.....art and theatre

[MightyAC]

I saw the piece as well, very well done and very scary.

I like that they displayed that gang violence isn't race related it is a symptom of poverty and lack of opportunity. I also liked the quote from the police officer who explained that tougher sentences don't stop gang violence. He said in the heat of the moment it comes down to us versus them and they don't think about the consequences until afterwards. His solution was to teach young mothers how to break the cycle, so in other words a social program. I think it helped to illustrate that right wing tougher sentences and left wing social programs should not be mutually exclusive.

Tougher sentences will help victims and their kin feel that some sort of justice is served afterwards, which is good. However, to stop the problem long term the social programs that provide education, help and opportunity are required. To borrow a tag line from someone on this board....It takes a left and a right wing to fly a plane.

[MightyAC]

I wonder why they weren't shooting each other? Does anyone know if Scotland has tough gun laws? How do they keep illegal weapons out of the hands of gangs? At least that was one positive... maybe Canadian lawmakers should look into that..

[M.Dancer]

I wonder why they weren't shooting each other? Does anyone know if Scotland has tough gun laws? How do they keep illegal weapons out of the hands of gangs? At least that was one positive... maybe Canadian lawmakers should look into that..

All of Britain has tough gun laws....I believe the death toll in Glasgow was 60 or 70 last year....a trifle compared to gun toting cities.

[Remiel]

Since you saw the program, MightyAC, and saw how proud those kids were of their scars, remember that they weren't out just to kill each other. They were out their to prove how " tough " they are, and for their " pride " . It is hard to be tough and proud when you have been shot. I think there is a definate trend their towards personal physical violence, i.e. fists and knives, rather than vicarious physical violence, i.e. guns and bullets. Or rather to say, they are just as interested in the cause as in the effect.

[M.Dancer]

Since you saw the program, MightyAC, and saw how proud those kids were of their scars, remember that they weren't out just to kill each other. They were out their to prove how " tough " they are, and for their " pride " . It is hard to be tough and proud when you have been shot. I think there is a definate trend their towards personal physical violence, i.e. fists and knives, rather than vicarious physical violence, i.e. guns and bullets. Or rather to say, they are just as interested in the cause as in the effect.

What I don't undertand is, while they might prove they are tough by having the snot kicked out of them......but being one of 12 or 25 doesn't especially prove how brave they are......it seemed to me they were all cowardly pieces of shit.

[MightyAC]

Since you saw the program, MightyAC, and saw how proud those kids were of their scars, remember that they weren't out just to kill each other. They were out their to prove how " tough " they are, and for their " pride " . It is hard to be tough and proud when you have been shot. I think there is a definate trend their towards personal physical violence, i.e. fists and knives, rather than vicarious physical violence, i.e. guns and bullets. Or rather to say, they are just as interested in the cause as in the effect.

What I don't undertand is, while they might prove they are tough by having the snot kicked out of them......but being one of 12 or 25 doesn't especially prove how brave they are......it seemed to me they were all cowardly pieces of shit.

I agree..

It was also mentioned that many of the clashes still relate to territory and what not. I have a hard time believing they would choose not to use guns if they were available. I think they must be doing something right in regards to gun control. Maybe we should look at what they are doing. Maybe there is something to be learned. I understand that being an island helps keep guns out vs having a large border with the largest gun toting nation in the world..but still free knowledge isn't a bad thing.

I always hear guns don't kill people, people kill people... but it seems to me that people with guns kill very effectively...people with lesser weapons kill much less effectively..

So the solution to gang violence seems to be tougher sentences to make victims feel better, gun control to minimize the collateral damage, social programs to help minimize the participation and poverty control to also help minimize participation by creating opportunity. Sounds expensive...is it worth it?

[Argus]

Friends of mine traveled all over the British Isles recently and came home to say that of all the places they visited, Glasgow was the only city where they felt unsafe.

They obviously didn't travel far enough.....there are places in London that are worse than the suburbs of Winnipeg.......Liverpool.....Birmingham....

Glasgow is also one of the major stops on the european cultural tours.....art and theatre

I'm sorry but... I don't understand. Everyone knows that poverty and violence are products of the evil conservatives ignoring the needs of the people. The UK has had Labour governments most of the last five decades. Surely there can be no poverty or racism left in that country! Everyone knows that socialism eliminates poverty and racism!

Oh, and if anyone cares to bring up the Thatcher decade, an interesting tidbit of information gleaned from the BBC page recently - social mobility was actually higher during the Thatcher years. It has been dropping since then. How strange!

[Michael Hardner]

I'm sorry but... I don't understand. Everyone knows that poverty and violence are products of the evil conservatives ignoring the needs of the people. The UK has had Labour governments most of the last five decades. Surely there can be no poverty or racism left in that country! Everyone knows that socialism eliminates poverty and racism!

More sarcasm...

I too am sorry. Everybody knows that race and religion is the best determinant of the criminality of people and that social factors have absolutely no effect. That's why we don't want to let Muslims into Canada where our social mores will have absolutely no effect on them.

[Argus]

I'm sorry but... I don't understand. Everyone knows that poverty and violence are products of the evil conservatives ignoring the needs of the people. The UK has had Labour governments most of the last five decades. Surely there can be no poverty or racism left in that country! Everyone knows that socialism eliminates poverty and racism!

More sarcasm...

I too am sorry. Everybody knows that race and religion is the best determinant of the criminality of people and that social factors have absolutely no effect. That's why we don't want to let Muslims into Canada where our social mores will have absolutely no effect on them.

Race and religion mean nothing except insofar as they indicate social background. Muslims aren't a danger to our society because of Islam, but because of the social background of Muslim immigrants and the way they interpret Islam. Ditto for racial background.

[BubberMiley]

They obviously didn't travel far enough.....there are places in London that are worse than the suburbs of Winnipeg.......Liverpool.....Birmingham....

The suburbs of Winnipeg? Maybe I should lock my door.

[Liam]

Friends of mine traveled all over the British Isles recently and came home to say that of all the places they visited, Glasgow was the only city where they felt unsafe.

They obviously didn't travel far enough.....there are places in London that are worse than the suburbs of Winnipeg.......Liverpool.....Birmingham....

Glasgow is also one of the major stops on the european cultural tours.....art and theatre

I've never been to Glasgow so i can't say. I am just reporting what they told me. Yes, they traveled extensively, even to industrial cities off the typical tourist-beaten path to visit family, old school friends, etc. (Sheffield, Birmingham, Belfast, Manchester). Of course there are places that are more dangerous within enormous cities but, like I said, I am only reporting that they told me -- for them -- Glasgow stood out as feeling the most dangerous.

[MightyAC]

Every large city has a poor area that is scary and dangerous. East LA, East Vancouver, Jane and Finch in Toronto, anything outside of downtown Chicago, etc. I'm sure Glasgow has some nice spots but it obviously has a larger problem than most cities...it was labeled the "most violent city in the developed world" for a reason.

It seems to me that poverty and lack of opportunity are the root causes of many of our problems. Marginalized people with no opportunity seem to seek refuge, safety and a purpose in collectives. When no other opportunities are available those collectives can be gangs, cults, militias, terrorist organizations, etc.

If people had opportunities and something to loose shady groups become less attractive. Most of us have something to loose...a job, a family, kids, friends, wealth, freedom, etc. Strip all of that away and then imagine scrambling to access decent food, shelter and security. Once in a state like that long enough why would any of us have any regard for rules and laws? For many of the poor jail or a juvenile detention center is a step up from their current life. So with nothing to loose even the toughest sentences are not a deterrent. Thankfully, the police in Glasgow are taking it upon themselves to counsel young mothers and provide hope, education and opportunity. It will take a few generations but they will make a difference. Also, I'm glad they have such strict gun control. Those gangs could be far more dangerous to the rest of the city if they were armed with more than knives.

[badbhoy]

As a Glasgow-born Canadian I found the coverage of this story flawed and missing the "elephant in the room" reason for violence in the city. Sectarianism.

Like Belfast, Glasgow has a long history of sectarian violence and prejudice that infiltrates all aspects of life in the city. Whereas the viloence in Belfast manifests intself through the much-publicized political turmoil in Northern Ireland, in the west of Scotland it still hides under the surface. This was either intentionally or unintentionally skipped over in this story, instead implying that Scottish youth are just headcases who like to beat the pulp out of one another.

To do this was irresponsible journalism in my opinion and further demonstrates the hidden agenda of most CBC news stories.

[Remiel]

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on the troubles facing Glasgow, badbhoy.

However, even if you factored in other reasons, I don't think they would really have changed the point of the piece. The point was to divorce that kind of violence from being a problem of genetics (race), instead of other factors. She specifically mentioned that when you show minorities involved in gang violence here, it tends to colour the perception of the entire minority, instead of being just about the gangs. She was using Glasgow to try and show that the Caucasians can just as easily fall into the same behavior given the right circumstances.

[M.Dancer]

As a Glasgow-born Canadian I found the coverage of this story flawed and missing the "elephant in the room" reason for violence in the city. Sectarianism.

Like Belfast, Glasgow has a long history of sectarian violence and prejudice that infiltrates all aspects of life in the city. Whereas the viloence in Belfast manifests intself through the much-publicized political turmoil in Northern Ireland, in the west of Scotland it still hides under the surface. This was either intentionally or unintentionally skipped over in this story, instead implying that Scottish youth are just headcases who like to beat the pulp out of one another.

To do this was irresponsible journalism in my opinion and further demonstrates the hidden agenda of most CBC news stories.

Sort of like a Rangers -Celtic Match? Or why some matches are best viewed at home?

[fellowtraveller]

I wonder why they weren't shooting each other? Does anyone know if Scotland has tough gun laws? How do they keep illegal weapons out of the hands of gangs? At least that was one positive... maybe Canadian lawmakers should look into that..

Huh?

I believe Edmonton is the murder capital of Canada on a per capita basis, there are plenty of guns available there - and around 30 murders per year. Glasgow and Edmonton are roughly the same size.

So much for your theory.....

[M.Dancer]

I wonder why they weren't shooting each other? Does anyone know if Scotland has tough gun laws? How do they keep illegal weapons out of the hands of gangs? At least that was one positive... maybe Canadian lawmakers should look into that..

Huh?

I believe Edmonton is the murder capital of Canada on a per capita basis, there are plenty of guns available there - and around 30 murders per year. Glasgow and Edmonton are roughly the same size.

So much for your theory.....

What was his theory?

[fellowtraveller]

I'm just guessing here, but I think it was that the amazing murder rate in Glasgow 0f 60-70 per year would be higher if everybody had guns, so gun control is a success there.

I dunno, ask him.

[Glaswegian]

Hi Folks,

I was only recently made aware of this documentary and felt more than a mite appalled by the thought of Glasgow being portrayed in an overtly negative way. I'll be up front about it....I was born and raised in Glasgow, and I currently live and work in the city so my colours are pretty much nailed to the mast. That isn't to say my view is a blinkered one, far from it. I grew up in an area of the city infamous for violence, depravation and organised crime.

Another admission: I haven't seen the documentary. I don't know what ideas they put forward or how they go about explaining them. Despite this, I think I can discuss it with a degree of cynicism. Why? Well, the title is a good start. This strikes me very much as a title that was begging for a film. Imagine it if you will...a film crew turns up on the mean streets of Govan....day 1...."The Most Violent City In The Developed World, Take 1"...a wee old lady walks by and asks if they're making a television programme...a mother pushes her pram along the street....people go about their business. Hardly shocking stuff is it? What I'm saying folks is that when you start off making a documentary with a set agenda you are DUTY BOUND to fulfil it. Whatever else the evidence may suggest. So with a title like that, the integrity of the film must be in question.

Glasgow has a gang violence problem. It has a knife crime problem. It has problems with poverty and substance abuse. In short, it has the same sort of problems that any city does. What is different, we are told, is that Glasgow has a disproportionate level of all of these problems in relation to its size. The figures seem to back this up. But the figures are STUPID. That's right, stupid, and I'll tell you why. OFFICIALLY, Glasgow is a city of around 550,000 people. Crime figures and percentages relate only to this demographic. There is, however, a long-standing argument concerning boundaries around our city. Greater Glasgow is an urban area of over a million people. The outlying and mainly salubrious areas of Greater Glasgow benefit from their association with the city in terms of public services such as police, housing, roads etc. BUT they retain their status as villages or towns because it means that they pay less tax. This problem is also a huge influence on crime statistics. Many leafy, relatively crime-free areas just outside the city limits are not considered when these figures are compiled, leading to a negatively skewed impression of crime levels in Glasgow. This is not to say it doesn't exist...of course it does. But the numbers that could lead one to conclude that Glasgow is the "most violent city in the developed world" are dubious at best. In other areas of the UK these outlying areas were annexed long ago and it's this beureaucratic anomaly that taints pretty much any statistics concerning the city that you care to mention.

So, rant over. One of you mentioned how friends had travelled in the UK and thought Glasgow was the only place that they felt afraid. I'm agog. Seriously. Did they visit London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester et al? Glasgow is one of the foremost Victorian cities in Europe. A wander around Glasgow City Centre will inevitably have you looking upwards at the magnificent architecture. It's a city of ingenuity, art and culture and it's currently experiencing a renaissance. Don't let scaremongering, agenda-laden, documentary-makers put you off. I visited New York and didn't hang around anywhere that I knew would get me dead....same applies when you come here. Anywhere a tourist might visit is safe as houses. We're a friendly lot. We LIKE it when we see tourists here. We're very keen to help. Honestly! We won't eat your children (unless they're strawberry flavoured).

"Here's tae us. Wha's like us? Gye few, and they're aw deid!"

[Remiel]

Thank you for giving us some insight into the greater Glasgow area, Glaswegian.