A primer on Muslim "Anger"

[Catchme]

The reason why Al Queda is so popular in certain countries is because there is no release for dissention among the population. They turn to religion and support groups that call for Pan Arab nationalism which, also calls for the removal of Aposphate leaders. Hardly the support of free thining people rather, it is a movement composed of people already in a mind trap and wishing to expand their reach.

I agree. When the Jews were put in the concentration camps and 6 million were killed, there were lots of reasons for jewish "anger". That's why, after WW II, the Jews hung out in European cities, organizing suicide bombing squads rather than working. Hey. luxuriating on UN aid and blowing people up was just great fun.

Excuse me, that comment is not accurate nor true. First it is a logical fallacy, you have equated Al Qeada with all Muslims. By using only the term "Jews" in juxposition, instead of using a an organization that was comprised of some Jewish people.

Nor do all Muslim peoples luxuriate on UN Aid in fact MOST Muslim people do not. Just as it is not most Muslim people blowing up people, or anymore than any other kinda people are blowing up Muslims. Perhaps probably less even.

[jbg]

[i agree. When the Jews were put in the concentration camps and 6 million were killed, there were lots of reasons for jewish "anger". That's why, after WW II, the Jews hung out in European cities, organizing suicide bombing squads rather than working. Hey. luxuriating on UN aid and blowing people up was just great fun.

Excuse me, that comment is not accurate nor true. First it is a logical fallacy, you have equated Al Qeada with all Muslims. By using only the term "Jews" in juxposition, instead of using a an organization that was comprised of some Jewish people.

The silence among the non-Quaeda Muslims is deafening. And my point is not that all Muslims are one way and all Jews another, but clearly, one group is marked by repetitive, violent savagery, the other by constructive activity.

Nor do all Muslim peoples luxuriate on UN Aid in fact MOST Muslim people do not. Just as it is not most Muslim people blowing up people, or anymore than any other kinda people are blowing up Muslims. Perhaps probably less even.

I did not say Muslims "luxuriate on UN Aid". I was pointing out, via sarcasm that went straight over your ability to comprehend, that Jews went right to work building, and did not take a 1000 year break to avenge the Holocausts, as some did to avenge the (very provoked) Crusades. In fact, I believe that Muslim leaders, like First Nations' band leaders, parasitically glom onto aid, while their charges are kept in penury and misery, great photo ops.

Hey, do you really think those starving children on aid posters get any of the lucre donated in the West?

[Catchme]

Again you are being disengenuous..You are trying to broad brush Muslims and condemn them for not speaking out. When in fact that is a lie.

Muslims cannot do anything to affect others not of their sects, anymore than "Christians' do anything about their famatical sects, or Jews do anything about their fanatical sects. Hold all peoples to the same standards please.

You neglect, anyones part in destroying their countries, and you neglect to mention just where Israel would be if not for USA dollars propping them up.

Your targeting of Muslims at all costs is over the top.

[jbg]

Again you are being disengenuous..You are trying to broad brush Muslims and condemn them for not speaking out. When in fact that is a lie.

Muslims cannot do anything to affect others not of their sects, anymore than "Christians' do anything about their famatical sects, or Jews do anything about their fanatical sects. Hold all peoples to the same standards please.

You neglect, anyones part in destroying their countries, and you neglect to mention just where Israel would be if not for USA dollars propping them up.

Your targeting of Muslims at all costs is over the top.

Neither me, nor most Westerners, are attacking them with indiscriminate suicide bombings.

[Black Dog]

Neither me, nor most Westerners, are attacking them with indiscriminate suicide bombings.

Neither are most Muslims.

[White Doors]

When was the last non-muslim suicide bomber...

hmmm.....

[Black Dog]

When was the last non-muslim suicide bomber...

hmmm.....

Ever heard of the Tamil Tigers? They pretty much invented suicide bombing in its contemporary form and use it to this day. They're Hindu.

[jbg]

When was the last non-muslim suicide bomber...

hmmm.....

The Pump Hill, Calgary Federation of Temple Youth, maybe? Or Lower Westchester (New York) Federation of Temple Youth? Those Bar Mitzvah students can be deadly.

[Who's Doing What?]

When was the last non-muslim suicide bomber...

hmmm.....

Whill not a suicide bomber Timothy McVeigh deserves a mention here.

[jbg]

When was the last non-muslim suicide bomber...

hmmm.....

Whill not a suicide bomber Timothy McVeigh deserves a mention here.

1. McVeigh was not a suicide bomber. He detonated the fertilizer-filled truck via remote control; and
   
2. His partner, Nichols' meeting with Islamists in the Phillipines should not go unremarked.
   

Bubba Clinton did not want to pursue that angle, since it would disrupte his drive for a Nobel Peace Prize for bringing "peace" (or maybe pieces) to the Israelis and "Palestinians".

[Figleaf]

...A bit of history about the Muslims is in order. ...

Is this thread really any different in quality than someone launching a discussion titled "A primer on Jewish 'scheming'?

[Black Dog]

His partner, Nichols' meeting with Islamists in the Phillipines should not go unremarked.

Bubba Clinton did not want to pursue that angle, since it would disrupte his drive for a Nobel Peace Prize for bringing "peace" (or maybe pieces) to the Israelis and "Palestinians".

Perhaps sir would be more comfortable in this?

[jbg]

...A bit of history about the Muslims is in order. ...

Is this thread really any different in quality than someone launching a discussion titled "A primer on Jewish 'scheming'?

Yes. I am discussing the anger the Muslims feel towards the world, and my lack of understanding why others shouldn't be similarly angry.

[mikedavid00]

These vicious circles of violence only end when one side has the maturity and strength to choose to not hit back.

Pre-Holocaust, the Jews did not hit back. We know the results.

Never again.

Wow this is amazing. I completley agree and feel more strongly than ever on this.

I stand with Israel. Christians should stand with Isreal. Harper Stands with Isreal which makes me proud.

Here's why.

Guyser? Jefferiah? Geoffry?

[jbg]

I stand with Israel. Christians should stand with Isreal. Harper Stands with Isreal which makes me proud.

When the CPC was elected, someone in the States asked how Harper would be on Israel. Without much basis I said "he'll be very strong on Israel". It was just a prediction, based on his character, I was right.

[ScottSA]

Here's an old letter on a blog, by a professional in Italy, and it screams the anguish of Eurabia. While the North American left scoff in absolute ignorance of what is happening in Europe and wallow in political correctness, the only happy thing I can see is that they and their ideas of "cultural harmony" will be first up against the wall when the barbarians breach the walls (h/t Gov):

...I am an anesthesiologist and I see lots and lots of women give birth, lately most of them are Muslim, their husbands don’t come into the delivery room, it is not allowed by their religion and even before our request for help at least to provide some translation they REFUSE if she must die it’s Allah who wants it… so these poor girls (even if they do nothing to change the situation) don’t understand a word of Italian, they suffer like beasts, we tell them to push and they don’t understand, to move, to walk, to stop and they don’t understand, the situation gets complicated and we almost always practice a caesarean. They breed and breed, they must outnumber us within a generation.

At this rate they will succeed… once we are a minority we won’t be able to rebel any more, we’ll wear the burqa, we’ll take down our crucifixes and our freedom will be lost forever… Our politicians don’t deal with the problem, frightened like all of us by these people who are not afraid to die, are not afraid to fight and above all have a precise plan...

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/07/...t-is-still.html

[marcinmoka]

Here's why.

Moon of Mecca?

No offense, but who the hell is this clown?

Despite not being a a devout follower, I would rather prefer that the canonical texts and contextual analysis of Christianity be emanating from Rome or at least Canterbury. Whether you believe or not, at least the theologians of both the Protestant and Catholic faiths have put in countless effort into the study and analysis of religious doctrine over the course of centuries if not millennia, and are much more suited to to explain a. the principles of a faith b. the varying principles of other faiths. And it proves we were not just burning witches, but actually doing something productive, in so that even the most secular or academics would respect Christian theological analysis.

This "tele-preacher mans" explanation of religion is equivalent of asking a 4th grader to explain a doctoral level seminar. And if I were a Jew, considering their commonly held devotion to religious analysis, I would be doubly pissed off seeing twice as much time put into study being boiled down to some masturbatory cliche terms. Reducing our religions to this makes a mockery of cultures. While Pope Benedict's speeches are not even remotely as "digestible" as a primer to the televised Nascar race on Sundays, I would prefer you use those in debate, since there was actually some thought put into them.

Edited July 31, 2007 by marcinmoka

[JB Globe]

Before I start with the post let me just say that the post offends me most as a Jew, precisely because all of the same logical errors and factual manipulations are present here as they are in an anti-semetic diatribe against Jews. And I hate it when other groups are subjected to the same ignorant xenophobic rants that we are, even more so when coming from so-called "supporters of THE Jews"

During the pre-Muslim era, the wanton and vicious habits of the desert people of the area from Egypt through Saudi Arabia is well known, and memorialized in the oral history contained in the Bible. The stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, of the binding of Isaac (by negative implication the ritual child sacrifice among neighboring peoples),

It's ridiculous that you're using the bible in a supposedly rational and secular historical analysis of a people. The stories contained in the bible should not be taken as fact - as a historical document the bible contains myths that may or may not allude to exaggerations of real people and places.

In that time period, that region was no more or less "vicious" (a loaded term) than other regions where at the time, such as

I find it telling that you've chosen to ignore ARCHAEOLOGICAL HISTORY of the Middle East - perhaps you could explain why you chose to leave out mentioning Sumeria, Babylon and other early civilizations? My belief is that you've done this because to admit that ancestor to today's Arabs were among the first in the world to practice agriculture, and engage in large-scale city-building (even sooner than in Europe) would conflict with your prejudiced view that Muslims/Arabs are barbaric, culturally inferior and always have been.

The wickedness and idolatry prevalant in these areas, along with sexual perversion and violence, existed well before Islam and the fault for them must be laid at the door, not of Islam, but of local "cultures".

"Wicked" is a loaded, religious term, and does not belong in a supposedly secular historical analysis. In addition, there is nothing inherently "wrong" with idol-worship or polytheism. Both the "wickedness and idolatry" you speak of were practiced in Europe as well by Romans and Greeks. So do you feel those cultures were equally as "barbaric?" Or are you applying different standards to different cultures?

Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword.

There is a clear difference between the expansion of Islam during the lifetime of Mohammad versus the expansion of the caliphate afterwards. During Mohammed's life, actions were mostly defensive and/or campaigns were waged to secure economic self-sufficiency for Mohammed's followers. By no means does this mean all actions were perfect, but it was by no means an "extremely violent" campaign of terror as you imply.

Islam's early expansion wasn't extremely violent - in fact, it was on par with other expansions of other "empires" such as the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great's conquest. Again - are you ignoring this or applying different standards to Islam because you have an agenda?

Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form.

If Muslims are barbaric because at one point in history, one group of Muslims engaged in piracy and slave-trading, doesn't that mean that Christians are equally barbaric for engaging in an even larger slave-trade and piracy on the most grand scale (also known as Colonialism?)

Again, you're applying different standards here to different groups.

You're also not making the link here - just because some pirates happen to be Muslim at some point does not mean it is the fault of Islam. You have to SHOW the link between Islam and piracy, and you have account for discrepancies in your claim (ie - Berber pirates vs. Islamic societies which encouraged and defended trade - ie: the Safavid Empire encouraging trade along the Silk road, and taxing it through its borders, not raiding it)

Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC (all of the money benefits the rulers, not the people), the UN, and disaster-milking.

It's here where I have to question if even YOU believe what you're saying. Barbary Coast pirates as one in the same as OPEC? If that kind of leap is possible, than why shouldn't I as a Jew consider today's Germans to be one-in-the same as the Nazis? After all, that was only 60 or so years ago.

Remeber those pitiful faces on ads for charities after the Indonesia tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake? How much rebuilding do you think has really happened?

It varies by region. Reconstruction in Banda Aceh - the area worst hit by the tsunami, has moved along fairly well. My current roommate worked there for 6 months and was impressed with most of the work done. In other areas, it's not going as well.

Again - different standards: corruption in development work is not limited to Muslim countries but includes Christian nations in Africa, and Central and South America.

After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live.

Implying that Holocaust survivors did everything on their own is completely false. I only need to point to the fact that the vast majority of Holocaust survivors emigrated to Israel, which from day one has received large amounts of funding from various nations, primarily the United States.

Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims?

You're completely ignoring any sort of CONTEXT with this statement. Your argument assumes that both Jews, Americans and Muslims share the same capability in terms of military & economy, you fail to factor in the different histories of these peoples and nations.

Terrorism and guerrilla warfare are the tactic of societies which are militarily inferior to the power they are in conflict with. The reason Israel doesn't engage in suicide bombing is because they don't need to - they have one of the best militaries in the world. The reason why Jews don't feel animosity towards Germans in general is because Germans have made a real effort to make up for the crimes of the past and are still to this day very conscious of their history - you can't say the same thing about America's dealings with the Middle East, which is why there is still animosity there.

How on earth you can claim to provide a brief history of the Islamic world and NOT EVEN MENTION THE COLONIAL PERIOD is beyond me. It's even worse than talking about American history and leaving out the Revolution.

I should also point out your gross generalizations - assuming that Indonesian Muslims and Turkish muslims are one in the same because they're muslim - Which is like claiming that Russia and America are one in the same because most people who live there are Christian - you completely ignore the cultural and historical differences between nations that are majority-Muslim.

To summarize, you really need to do some more learning before trying to write something like this. You need to be more honest with yourself about what you know and what you don't know. Not everyone can be an expert on everything - if you haven't read that much about Islam - there's no shame in not posting about it and spending your time studying it instead. You also need to be more honest about your intentions and agenda - it's easy for many to see you're trying to portray Islam and Muslims by extension as barbaric and evil.

[Higgly]

I stand with Israel. Christians should stand with Isreal. Harper Stands with Isreal which makes me proud.

Your first mistake is standing with anybody. There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as people take sides.

[jbg]

Before I start with the post let me just say that the post offends me most as a Jew, precisely because all of the same logical errors and factual manipulations are present here as they are in an anti-semetic diatribe against Jews. And I hate it when other groups are subjected to the same ignorant xenophobic rants that we are, even more so when coming from so-called "supporters of THE Jews"

And I hate it more when a supposed Jew fails to take his own peoples' side during a war of survival. The post made me nauseous.

[JB Globe]

And I hate it more when a supposed Jew fails to take his own peoples' side during a war of survival. The post made me nauseous.

Translation - you're avoiding my critique of your post.

A word of advice: stop speaking from the position of an expert on topics you haven't studied, and don't start discussions you have no intention of finishing.

And while you're at it, cut out the anti-semitic paternalism - You're not Jewish, you don't know our community, you don't know our history, you don't know our culture, and you damn sure don't know what's best for us, we do.

[Bonam]

Uh oh

[jbg]

Before I start with the post let me just say that the post offends me most as a Jew, precisely because all of the same logical errors and factual manipulations are present here as they are in an anti-semetic{u]Semitic[/u] diatribe against Jews. And I hate it when other groups are subjected to the same ignorant xenophobic rants that we are, even more so when coming from so-called "supporters of THE Jews"

What "logical errors and factual manipulations"? More importantly, I am Jewish. More importantly, to what "anti-semetic{u]Semitic[/u]diatribe against Jews" do you refer? And what "ignorant xenophobic rants" offend you? I have trouble considering a genuine fear of violence "xenophobia".

It's ridiculous that you're using the bible in a supposedly rational and secular historical analysis of a people. The stories contained in the bible should not be taken as fact - as a historical document the bible contains myths that may or may not allude to exaggerations of real people and places.

The Bible was probably a relatively accurate oral history, with some attribution of disastrous or wonderful events, otherwise inexplicable, to divine forces. If you were a resident of New Orleans, pre-weather forecasting, and Katrina (or its equivalent) blew in, how would you explain it? This is what I attribute some of the stories such as the Red Sea parting, Noah's rainstorm, the burning bush, etc. to. Other stories or parables have one or several "morals" or meanings, such as the story of the binding of Isaac. Others accurately described the savagery of neighboring people, quite believable in view of the antics of Palestinians.

In that time period, that region was no more or less "vicious" (a loaded term) than other regions where at the time, such as

Care to finish your thought?

I find it telling that you've chosen to ignore ARCHAEOLOGICAL HISTORY of the Middle East - perhaps you could explain why you chose to leave out mentioning Sumeria, Babylon and other early civilizations? My belief is that you've done this because to admit that ancestor to today's Arabs were among the first in the world to practice agriculture, and engage in large-scale city-building (even sooner than in Europe) would conflict with your prejudiced view that Muslims/Arabs are barbaric, culturally inferior and always have been.

One, the Arabs drove out th people of Sumeria, Babylon and other early civilizations, at the point of a sword. When Islam started it was "convert or die". Two, the Muslims deteriorated as time went on.

"Wicked" is a loaded, religious term, and does not belong in a supposedly secular historical analysis. In addition, there is nothing inherently "wrong" with idol-worship or polytheism. Both the "wickedness and idolatry" you speak of were practiced in Europe as well by Romans and Greeks. So do you feel those cultures were equally as "barbaric?" Or are you applying different standards to different cultures?

Many of their practices were barbaric. Read a little bit. It would be good for you.

There is a clear difference between the expansion of Islam during the lifetime of Mohammad versus the expansion of the caliphate afterwards. During Mohammed's life, actions were mostly defensive and/or campaigns were waged to secure economic self-sufficiency for Mohammed's followers. By no means does this mean all actions were perfect, but it was by no means an "extremely violent" campaign of terror as you imply.

Some stories were pretty blood-curdling, such as attacking forces that surrendered, or running up a truce flag and then continuing to fight.

Islam's early expansion wasn't extremely violent - in fact, it was on par with other expansions of other "empires" such as the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great's conquest. Again - are you ignoring this or applying different standards to Islam because you have an agenda?

To the contrary Moorish Spain was pretty good. Things took a turn for the worse later.

If Muslims are barbaric because at one point in history, one group of Muslims engaged in piracy and slave-trading, doesn't that mean that Christians are equally barbaric for engaging in an even larger slave-trade and piracy on the most grand scale (also known as Colonialism?)

The Muslims sold the slaves to the Christians.

You're also not making the link here - just because some pirates happen to be Muslim at some point does not mean it is the fault of Islam. You have to SHOW the link between Islam and piracy, and you have account for discrepancies in your claim (ie - Berber pirates vs. Islamic societies which encouraged and defended trade - ie: the Safavid Empire encouraging trade along the Silk road, and taxing it through its borders, not raiding it)

Piracy and white slavery was justified on religious grounds, according to McCullough's biography John Adams. Adams met them as ambassador to Britain.

It's here where I have to question if even YOU believe what you're saying. Barbary Coast pirates as one in the same as OPEC? If that kind of leap is possible, than why shouldn't I as a Jew consider today's Germans to be one-in-the same as the Nazis? After all, that was only 60 or so years ago.

The actions of the Barbary Coast Pirates are very similar to OPEC; fobbing off productive people to enrich unproductive ones.

It varies by region. Reconstruction in Banda Aceh - the area worst hit by the tsunami, has moved along fairly well. My current roommate worked there for 6 months and was impressed with most of the work done. In other areas, it's not going as well.

After they'd been in rebellion for years and the government didn't want a resumption of same.

Again - different standards: corruption in development work is not limited to Muslim countries but includes Christian nations in Africa, and Central and South America.

It's a mite bit worse in Muslim lands, don't you think?

Implying that Holocaust survivors did everything on their own is completely false. I only need to point to the fact that the vast majority of Holocaust survivors emigrated to Israel, which from day one has received large amounts of funding from various nations, primarily the United States.

But far less aid than the Palestinians have gotten, and frittered away. At least that aid was used for a humanitarian purpose and didn't go into Swiss bank accounts.

Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations".

You're completely ignoring any sort of CONTEXT with this statement. Your argument assumes that both Jews, Americans and Muslims share the same capability in terms of military & economy, you fail to factor in the different histories of these peoples and nations.

So what you're saying is that the Jews deserve no praise for their relative self-restraint and the "Palestinians" deserve no condemnation for the wanton and vicious slaughter they routinely wreak on innocent Israelis? Your argument is akin to saying that what Paul Bernardo did is OK because of bad parenting he or Karla may have suffered.

Quite a stunning double standard there.

Terrorism and guerrilla warfare are the tactic of societies which are militarily inferior to the power they are in conflict with. The reason Israel doesn't engage in suicide bombing is because they don't need to - they have one of the best militaries in the world. The reason why Jews don't feel animosity towards Germans in general is because Germans have made a real effort to make up for the crimes of the past and are still to this day very conscious of their history - you can't say the same thing about America's dealings with the Middle East, which is why there is still animosity there.

Excuse me, in June 1945 the Germans had made no effort to "make up for the crimes of the past". A far as your statement that "Israel doesn't engage in suicide bombing is because they don't need to" where are the Tibetan suicide bombers in China?

How on earth you can claim to provide a brief history of the Islamic world and NOT EVEN MENTION THE COLONIAL PERIOD is beyond me. It's even worse than talking about American history and leaving out the Revolution.

The colonization became necessary in order to secure the sea and land travel lanes for trade against Muslim depradation.

I should also point out your gross generalizations - assuming that Indonesian Muslims and Turkish muslims are one in the same because they're muslim - Which is like claiming that Russia and America are one in the same because most people who live there are Christian - you completely ignore the cultural and historical differences between nations that are majority-Muslim.

Then why are both dangerous armpit countries?

To summarize, you really need to do some more learning before trying to write something like this. You need to be more honest with yourself about what you know and what you don't know. Not everyone can be an expert on everything - if you haven't read that much about Islam - there's no shame in not posting about it and spending your time studying it instead. You also need to be more honest about your intentions and agenda - it's easy for many to see you're trying to portray Islam and Muslims by extension as barbaric and evil.

Don't parody my handle and don't lecture to me. As one of my country's first flags said: "Don't Tread on Me". Edited August 23, 2007 by jbg

[jbg]

Translation - you're avoiding my critique of your post.

A word of advice: stop speaking from the position of an expert on topics you haven't studied, and don't start discussions you have no intention of finishing.

And while you're at it, cut out the anti-semitic paternalism - You're not Jewish, you don't know our community, you don't know our history, you don't know our culture, and you damn sure don't know what's best for us, we do.

I responded to you. I post on my schedule, not yours. If you need an immediate response, MSN works fine. Or dial 911.

Edited August 23, 2007 by jbg

[buffycat]

QUOTE(JB Globe @ Aug 20 2007, 05:27 PM)

*

Implying that Holocaust survivors did everything on their own is completely false. I only need to point to the fact that the vast majority of Holocaust survivors emigrated to Israel, which from day one has received large amounts of funding from various nations, primarily the United States.

But far less aid than the Palestinians have gotten, and frittered away. At least that aid was used for a humanitarian purpose and didn't go into Swiss bank accounts.

You have got to be kidding here right jbg? The PA has recieved more funding that Israel? I think you may want to check on that.

Currently, Israel recieves the lion's share of all foreign aid from the US - seconded only by Egypt and Jordan (in the area). About 10,000 $ per person per year.

Sorry jbg - but you are really way off on this little estimate. And while the PA certainly did fritter some of their meager dollars away (which is part of the reason that Hamas won the last election), in no way whatsoever did aid to the PA ever reach the biblical proportions that Israeli has and continues to recieve. Again, resulting in alot of bad feelings on the part of her Arab neighbours who do see the inequity of America's foreign policies in the region.