Northwest Passage

[Higgly]

They are significantly farther apart and are not on the same continental shelf. Also, did you forget that they are separated by another country?

Yes that is an important distinction. The Northwest Passage is entirely within contiguous Canadian territory.

[M.Dancer]

Yes that is an important distinction. The Northwest Passage is entirely within contiguous Canadian territory.

And the Irish Sea and the English Channel are within contiguous British territory....

[Guest American Woman]

I'm still waiting to find out who the NW Passage belonged to before Canada claimed it in 1973. Seems no one has an answer to that.

And speaking of Denmark-- I see Canada's also in a dispute with Denmark over Hans Island. I've read where some Canadians were even calling for a boycott of Danish

pastry. That sure made this American feel better about the whole Freedom

Fries fiasco.

Edited November 13, 2007 by American Woman

[Higgly]

And the Irish Sea and the English Channel are within contiguous British territory....

Great Britain does not include Ireland, the Irish Sea is neither a strait nor an archipelago, and if anybody tried to run a nuclear sub through there, you can be pretty sure both the Brits and the Irish would be on their case pretty quickly.

[Riverwind]

And the Irish Sea and the English Channel are within contiguous British territory....

UNCLOS Art. 46 9 ( defines an archipelago as a group of islands, including parts of islands, interconnecting waters and other natural features which are so closely interrelated that such islands, waters and other natural features form an intrinsic geographical, economic and political entity, or which historically have been regarded as such

[M.Dancer]

Great Britain does not include Ireland, the Irish Sea is neither a strait nor an archipelago, and if anybody tried to run a nuclear sub through there, you can be pretty sure both the Brits and the Irish would be on their case pretty quickly.

Really? And here I thought, seeing they have members in the house of parlaiment in westminster that Northern Ireland was part of the UK.....

The irish don't have the capability to hunt subs, btw. Their largest naval vessel is a cutter.

http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw...ngdom_rel87.jpg

[Higgly]

I'm still waiting to find out who the NW Passage belonged to before Canada claimed it in 1973. Seems no one has an answer to that.

Why 1973? The Northwest Territories were added to Canada in 1870. The RCMP ran a ship through there in 1940.

[Guest American Woman]

Why 1973? The Northwest Territories were added to Canada in 1870. The RCMP ran a ship through there in 1940.

That's what I'd like to know. If the passage is without doubt part of Canada, why did Canada claim it in 1973?

[Smallc]

And the Irish Sea and the English Channel are within contiguous British territory....

The Irish Sea is Between Ireland and Great Britain and the English Channel is between England and France....want to try again.

[Riverwind]

Here is some background on Canada's claim: http://www.cdfai.org/PDF/Charron,%20Andrea-Paper.pdf

A brief, historic record of Canada’s sovereignty claim to the Northwest Passage is necessary to

understand the complexity of the arguments. Both the US and Canada have strong legal

arguments both of which are supported by cases from the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

All evidence suggests that a strictly legal solution to the Passage is unlikely hence the

importance of the two conceptual frameworks as potential solutions to the legal stalemate.

....

It was not until 1951 and the International Court of Justice’s (ICJ) ruling on the Fisheries Case

(United Kingdom v. Norway)13, that there was some “direction regarding jurisdiction of states

over waters adjacent to their coasts”.14 This ruling was particularly important for Canada

because: 1) it recognized the concept of historic title to coastal waters and 2) it accepted a new

method of measurement of territorial seas that Canada preferred. This new method of

calculation introduced the concept of “straight baselines”. Rather than following the outline of a

country’s land mass, as was the more traditional method, the straight baseline method allows a

country with offshore islands and/or very jagged coastlines to calculate its territorial seas from

straight lines drawn from a point on the coast to the islands or from island to island. One then

connects the dots literally and the water behind the lines is designated internal waters while

waters away from the line and toward open waters are considered territorial seas.

[Guest American Woman]

The Irish Sea is Between Ireland and Great Britain and the English Channel is between England and France....want to try again.

The Danish Straits.

And the Turkish Straits.

Edited November 13, 2007 by American Woman

[Smallc]

The Danish Straits.

And the Turkish Straits.

Territorial waters (View on Wikipedia)

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Map of Sealand and the United Kingdom, with territorial water claims of 3 NM and 12 NM shown.

Map of Sealand and the United Kingdom, with territorial water claims of 3 NM and 12 NM shown.

Territorial waters, or a territorial sea, is a belt of coastal waters extending at most twelve nautical miles (but possibly less, at the coastal country's discretion) from the mean low water mark of a littoral state that is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, except that foreign ships (both military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it.[1]

A sovereign state has complete jurisdiction over internal waters, where not even innocent passage is allowed. Territorial waters extend up to 12 nautical miles (22.224 km) from the mean low water mark adjacent to land, or from internal waters, as per the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The mean low water mark may be an unlimited distance from permanently exposed land, provided that some portion of elevations exposed at low tide but covered at high tide (like mud flats) is within 12 nautical miles of permanently exposed land. Completely enclosed seas, lakes, and rivers are considered internal waters, as are waters landward of lines connecting fringing islands along a coast or landward of lines across the mouths of rivers that flow into the sea. Bays are defined as indentations between headlands having an area greater than that of a semicircle. If they do not exceed 24 nautical miles (44.4 km) between headlands then they are internal waters; if their entrance is wider, then that portion landward of a 24 nautical miles straight line that touches opposite low-water marks across the bay positioned to contain the greatest water area are internal waters. All archipelagic waters within the outermost islands of an archipelagic state like Indonesia or the Philippines are also considered internal waters.

From Wikipedia.

[M.Dancer]

The Irish Sea is Between Ireland and Great Britain and the English Channel is between England and France....want to try again.

And it is also between England and Northern Ireland as well the english channel is betwen England and the Channel Islands....

......So I will stick with this thank you

[Higgly]

That's what I'd like to know. If the passage is without doubt part of Canada, why did Canada claim it in 1973?

What do you mean "claim it in 1973"?

[Smallc]

And it is also between England and Northern Ireland as well the english channel is betwen England and the Channel Islands....

......So I will stick with this thank you

Thats not the way they are defined. The English Channel separated France and England, and the Irish sea is a sea....and is right next to Dublin, the Capital of Ireland.

[M.Dancer]

Thats not the way they are defined. The English Channel separated France and England, and the Irish sea is a sea....and is right next to Dublin, the Capital of Ireland.

Fair enough then, the North Channel is international waters and separates the United Kingdom from the United Kingdom.....

[Higgly]

And it is also between England and Northern Ireland as well the english channel is betwen England and the Channel Islands....

Those are only a small part of the passage in question, though. In any case, Northern Ireland is a separate country with its own parliament.

[Higgly]

edit. erroneous post.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Higgly

[Riverwind]

Fair enough then, the North Channel is international waters and separates the United Kingdom from the United Kingdom.....

This map indicates that the North Channel belongs to the UK

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-1478

[Higgly]

This map indicates that the North Channel belongs to the UK

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-1478

What do you think the UK would do if the US were to sneak a nuclear sub through there unannounced?

[Guest American Woman]

I repeat. All the Danish Straits have been made international waterways.

[Riverwind]

I repeat. All the Danish Straits have been made international waterways.

Only because the Danes agreed.

In history the Danish government supported itself largely from tolls levied from through traffic under threat of sinking. In the 19th century this practice became so troublesome that the Danish government gave it up. The Copenhagen Convention of 1857 made the Danish straits an International waterway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Belt

[Guest American Woman]

Only because the Danes agreed.

They agreed in a treaty because it was in dispute and had to be settled. Canada will likely have to deal with a similar situation because the world disputes Canada's claim-- that includes the U.S., the EU, Japan, and from what I'm reading, the United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). They all say the passage is an international waterway. It connects the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean, and worldwide, any waterways connecting two international bodies of water are considered to be international waters.

It looks as if Canada is the only country that recognizes the Northwest Passage as belonging to Canada. It stands alone in its claim.

[bush_cheney2004]

What do you think the UK would do if the US were to sneak a nuclear sub through there unannounced?

They would protest mightily (just like Canada), then give the Americans another submarine base like Holy Loch for 40 years. LOL!

[Riverwind]

It looks as if Canada is the only country that recognizes the Northwest Passage as belonging to Canada. It stands alone in its claim.

Which is exactly the position that Norway was in when it won its case in 1951 at the International Court of Justice’s (ICJ). More importantly, the designation of 'international strait' does not mean that the waters do not belong to Canada (i.e. Canadian laws do apply). That designation simply means that ships are automatically granted the right of innocent passage. There is a huge difference between claiming the waters are international and claiming the right of innocent passage (the later implies that Canada has sovereignty). Edited November 13, 2007 by Riverwind