Healthcare in Canada

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/24082006/2/xhea...h-delivery.html

By the time the next election comes, the Conservatives might be under a lot of pressure to do something about wait times.

[Big Blue Machine]

Isn't wait times provinical?

[jdobbin]

Isn't wait times provinical?

The Conservatives made it a promise in the election. They say now that it is a provincial responsibility. Will they break this promise or work with the provinces to set standards?

[Charles Anthony]

This "waiting-time guarantee" is one of the most laughable examples of how stupid the general public can be and how the politicians trully take advantage of their stupidity. People who look to their politician to "reduce waiting times" would have a greater chance of that same politician coming over to their houses and mowing their lawns. Only a reflexive-lazy-freeloading-Canadian can see anything concrete out of a "wait-time guarantee" as a policy. This sales-pitch is just as creative as a government saying: "Vote for us and we will create money falling from the sky! All you will have to do is rake it up!" and the general public biting it hook, line and sinker.

From that article:

The federal Conservatives, stung by Liberal promises on health care in the 2000 and 2004 elections, jumped out early in the last campaign by making wait-times guarantees one of their first promises.

They proposed setting maximum wait times for medical procedures across the country, and promised to help patients get treated in other provinces or abroad if they can't receive timely care at home.

What the hell are they going to do if medical procedures take longer?

Come down from Parliament Hill and help out in the hospital??

Penalize the hospital?? Cut off their funding??

I can partly imagine the government providing some sort of reward system to providers who succeed at the waiting times but still, the whole premise involves a completely mind-numbing separation from the reality of why waiting times are getting longer.

When you think the electorate is soooo stupid, what happens?!? they come up with something even stupider!

We would do better by saving the wasted paper upon which these mindless policies were written and throw them in our fireplaces.

[jbg]

Jdobin, thanks for starting topic. The New York Sun (link) just ran an editorial on the subject. I was going to start this as a thread anyway, and ask for comments.

Not being Canadian, I cannot hope to gauge the accuracy of the editorial. In general, I am leery of anything being "free" and unlimited, since I do not believe that anything is truly "free" or unlimited. Also, on a personal note, one of my son's doctors is a Jew from Winnipeg. He pointed out that in the absence of any real language or cultural barrier, there is little keeping a Canadian doctor in other than family or local ties.

[Riverwind]

Not being Canadian, I cannot hope to gauge the accuracy of the editorial.

The editorial mixes a little bit of truth and quite a bit of myth to advance a political opinion.

Gov't funded insurance is not the problem in Canada - the problem is the communist like rules where people are not allowed to purchase private healthcare if they so choose. The SCC has struck down those rules which means that Canadians will have choices in healthcare in future, however, the overwhleming majority of Canadians want to keep the system where gov't pays the cost of basic medical insurance - even if a parallel privately funded system is allowed.

Incidently, even the most radical proponents of healthcare reform in Canada reject the US model - something Americans should keep in mind when they hear about the debate going on in Canada. Arguing that the US system does not need reform because the Canadian system has flaws is simply irrational.

[jdobbin]

Jdobin, thanks for starting topic. The New York Sun (link) just ran an editorial on the subject. I was going to start this as a thread anyway, and ask for comments.

Not being Canadian, I cannot hope to gauge the accuracy of the editorial. In general, I am leery of anything being "free" and unlimited, since I do not believe that anything is truly "free" or unlimited. Also, on a personal note, one of my son's doctors is a Jew from Winnipeg. He pointed out that in the absence of any real language or cultural barrier, there is little keeping a Canadian doctor in other than family or local ties.

You forgot some of the things that keep a Canadian doctor from heading to the States. In some cases, liability insurance has brought Canadian doctors back or kept them from settling in the States in the first place.

Waiting lists have only become an issue as Canada started dealing with its deficit and as the population has aged.

I don't think anyone in Canada wants to have an uninsured part of the population. Nor does business in Canada want to bear the costs of it like what is happening in the States. One of the reasons why GM is not competitive is that it pays the cost of health care for its employees.

Lots of tough questions.

This week, the University of Manitoba medical school inducted the largest class in history. Many doctors intend to stay because there is better matching of attending positions, incentives on student loans, better pay, better research positions. All of these things were lacking ten years ago.

Much more needs to be done.

[jbg]

The SCC has struck down those rules which means that Canadians will have choices in healthcare in future, however, the overwhleming majority of Canadians want to keep the system where gov't pays the cost of basic medical insurance - even if a parallel privately funded system is allowed.

But how would one ensure that any reasonable level of care could be obtained in the (presumably less lucrative for doctors) publicly funded portion of the system?

Incidently, even the most radical proponents of healthcare reform in Canada reject the US model - something Americans should keep in mind when they hear about the debate going on in Canada. Arguing that the US system does not need reform because the Canadian system has flaws is simply irrational.

I believe the underlying problem for both systems is that medical advances have created unaffordable opportunities for saving and enhancing life, such that no amount of money will be sufficient. I'm not sure there is a solution.

[jdobbin]

The editorial mixes a little bit of truth and quite a bit of myth to advance a political opinion.

One thing for certain is that Harper made the promise during the election and laying it all on the provinces is not going to work cause they will all lay it back at his feet.

[Charles Anthony]

But how would one ensure that any reasonable level of care could be obtained in the (presumably less lucrative for doctors) publicly funded portion of the system?

The "universal health care" does not mean that the government provides the care but rather just pays for the care.

I believe the underlying problem for both systems is that medical advances have created unaffordable opportunities for saving and enhancing life, such that no amount of money will be sufficient. I'm not sure there is a solution.

Correct.

I believe such clarity could only come from a person who does not have the luxury of distorting the free market mechanism as we do in Canada. Canadians think they can solve the problem by "reducing wait times" or "pie in the sky" or "group hugs" or "fighting capitalism" or Trudeaumania.

[jbg]

But how would one ensure that any reasonable level of care could be obtained in the (presumably less lucrative for doctors) publicly funded portion of the system?

The "universal health care" does not mean that the government provides the care but rather just pays for the care.

I know that. My point is that the reimbursement rates for doctors in the "public" portion will presumably be lower than the market-clearing private rates.

I believe the underlying problem for both systems is that medical advances have created unaffordable opportunities for saving and enhancing life, such that no amount of money will be sufficient. I'm not sure there is a solution.

Correct.

I believe such clarity could only come from a person who does not have the luxury of distorting the free market mechanism as we do in Canada. Canadians think they can solve the problem by "reducing wait times" or "pie in the sky" or "group hugs" or "fighting capitalism" or Trudeaumania.

Thanks. I see, on a daily basis, the "miracles of modern medicine" with my son, and a few others I'm very close to. While I'm grateful for the benefits (in my case employer-funded insurance) I understand that someone (in my case me, through a reduced salary) is paying.

[Charles Anthony]

My point is that the reimbursement rates for doctors in the "public" portion will presumably be lower than the market-clearing private rates.

Therefore, you could certainly be right. The difference in quality delivered may exist but the burden of volume will be lifted since some people will go to private care. The public-care waiting lists will have fewer people.

I see, on a daily basis, the "miracles of modern medicine" with my son, and a few others I'm very close to. While I'm grateful for the benefits (in my case employer-funded insurance) I understand that someone (in my case me, through a reduced salary) is paying.

Compared to our taxes allotted to health-care, you may not be paying as much as we do.

[Renegade]

I believe the underlying problem for both systems is that medical advances have created unaffordable opportunities for saving and enhancing life, such that no amount of money will be sufficient. I'm not sure there is a solution.

You are quite right. This is one (but not the only) problem with healthcare. The solution to this particular problem is to ration "free" healthcare. It is absurd to spend an unlimited amount of money saving a life or curing an ailment, even if it was technically possible.

[Riverwind]

I see, on a daily basis, the "miracles of modern medicine" with my son, and a few others I'm very close to. While I'm grateful for the benefits (in my case employer-funded insurance) I understand that someone (in my case me, through a reduced salary) is paying.

Compared to our taxes allotted to health-care, you may not be paying as much as we do.

I have looked into the cost of US health care when I was considering a contract job in the US and discovered - much to my surprise - that the cost of getting a family health insurance policy in the US that is comparable to what Canadians get for free is actually higher than the additional tax burden in Canada. Most Americans do not realize how much they pay for private insurance this because the cost is hidden by their employers.

[Topaz]

As one who had their spouse wait in Ont. in a large city from Nov.05 to july06 for cancer surgery, its hell waiting. They were put on a list being good to bad, depending on your need. The nurse told me that if people have "private " coverage, they probably won't get a room and semi-private is not guarantee either! There's just nopaid beds from the govt available in Ont. Most of the waiting times deals with available beds and operating rooms and the govt CAN change this, we pay enough taxes, especailly if you are paying the "health" tax!

[geoffrey]

As one who had their spouse wait in Ont. in a large city from Nov.05 to july06 for cancer surgery, its hell waiting. They were put on a list being good to bad, depending on your need. The nurse told me that if people have "private " coverage, they probably won't get a room and semi-private is not guarantee either! There's just nopaid beds from the govt available in Ont. Most of the waiting times deals with available beds and operating rooms and the govt CAN change this, we pay enough taxes, especailly if you are paying the "health" tax!

Go to the States, they'll have you in tomorrow.

There isn't waiting lists (to the ridiculous extent of Canada's) where the market is allowed to function. Not in Europe, not so much in the States.

When will Canadians smarten up and realised Tommy Douglas's ideas are about as outdated as he is?

Our health care system is a failure.

[jdobbin]

Go to the States, they'll have you in tomorrow.

There isn't waiting lists (to the ridiculous extent of Canada's) where the market is allowed to function. Not in Europe, not so much in the States.

When will Canadians smarten up and realised Tommy Douglas's ideas are about as outdated as he is?

Our health care system is a failure.

The United States rations healthcare through cost. Rich people or insured people can get the tests fast because they will pay whatever it costs. The uninsured or the under insured don't even bother to show up or get denied tests because they can't afford it or it isn't approved by their companies.

[Riverwind]

There isn't waiting lists (to the ridiculous extent of Canada's) where the market is allowed to function. Not in Europe, not so much in the States.

Let's see - there are 40 million Americans with no health care coverage. Seems to me that waiting a few months for care is better than never getting the care at all because you can't afford it.

Our health care system is a failure.

The system needs changes. Claiming it is a failure is ridiculous. If I use your way of judging success or failure then I would say the US system is a complete and total failure because it fails to provide adequate healthcare to a huge number of Americans.

[margrace]

If I or my husband had to use the US system we would have no health care. We never made enough money to pay for it. We worked hard all our lives but we never made over $14 an hour. Can you save money on that wage. There are a lot of Canadians like us.

[Hicksey]

I think if they want my money now, I should get my health care now. If they want deny me the care I need for a year, I should be able to deny them any money for a year.

I have been waiting for a simple sleep-study for 6 months now with no end in sight. I am sick of it.

No government has been able to solve this problem. In the last 15 years all three parties of note have held office in this province(ON) and the problem has only gotten worse despite all the extra tax dollars they dump on it. It will take a class action lawsuit to make them take note of how badly they neglect us.

[jdobbin]

I think if they want my money now, I should get my health care now. If they want deny me the care I need for a year, I should be able to deny them any money for a year.

I have been waiting for a simple sleep-study for 6 months now with no end in sight. I am sick of it.

No government has been able to solve this problem. In the last 15 years all three parties of note have held office in this province(ON) and the problem has only gotten worse despite all the extra tax dollars they dump on it. It will take a class action lawsuit to make them take note of how badly they neglect us.

Is this wait the result of a lack of specialists? I've heard there are smiliar waits for sleep studies in the States just because there are so many people suffering from a sleep disorder and not so many specialists in the field.

[Hicksey]

I think if they want my money now, I should get my health care now. If they want deny me the care I need for a year, I should be able to deny them any money for a year.

I have been waiting for a simple sleep-study for 6 months now with no end in sight. I am sick of it.

No government has been able to solve this problem. In the last 15 years all three parties of note have held office in this province(ON) and the problem has only gotten worse despite all the extra tax dollars they dump on it. It will take a class action lawsuit to make them take note of how badly they neglect us.

Is this wait the result of a lack of specialists? I've heard there are smiliar waits for sleep studies in the States just because there are so many people suffering from a sleep disorder and not so many specialists in the field.

I could be in at Belleview in Detroit, MI in a week if I was willing to pay. If I could I would.

[jdobbin]

I could be in at Belleview in Detroit, MI in a week if I was willing to pay. If I could I would.

So if there was private care in Canada, would you have insurance for it or would you still have access problems?

[Hicksey]

I could be in at Belleview in Detroit, MI in a week if I was willing to pay. If I could I would.

So if there was private care in Canada, would you have insurance for it or would you still have access problems?

I am a little stretched right right now, but as annoying as being tired all the time is becoming I am thinking more and more about finding funds and paying anyway. You don't know how hard it is being tired all the time unless you drive for a living.

If there was affordable insurance I would get it in a heartbeat.

[geoffrey]

If I or my husband had to use the US system we would have no health care. We never made enough money to pay for it. We worked hard all our lives but we never made over $14 an hour. Can you save money on that wage. There are a lot of Canadians like us.

In many places in Europe, Health Care is free (no prohibitive costs), costs less to taxpayers and has no waiting lists. France and Norway are great examples of how health care should be done.

Canadians need to grow up and lose their stigma against reform. Until then, we'll all suffer. Two tier is already here, those that can afford to fly south for fast treatment, and those that can't and suffer in our system.