Only Blood Brings Freedom

[Argus]

So the latest band-aid is ready to be applied by a cynical UN. There'll be UN troops along the border for a while to calm things down, but no likelihood the local Islamonazi group will be disarmed. The troops will withdraw in a year or so, and the whole thing will likely start over again.

I simply do not believe there can be any lasting peace between a Jewish nation and Islamofascists who are dedicated to the death of every Jew on the planet.

And I wonder how anyone can actually think there might be. The hatred in that region is too great, and being stoked in every available medium throughout the Muslim world. I think that Salim Mansur said it fairly well in his column today:

Anyone familiar with the Middle East's history must know the current war triggered by Hezbollah's Hassan Nasrallah against Israel is part of a long scenario reaching back to the founding of the Jewish state in 1947. In fact, it goes even further back to the Balfour Declaration of November 1917, announcing the British government's support for the establishment of a Jewish home in what was then called Palestine.

The defining aspect of this history is Arab-Muslim refusal to recognize Jewish rights in Palestine.

More importantly, in speaking about prospects for peace, Mansur writes:

But it seems to me there is also an insidious psychology pervasive in the thinking and politics of perhaps a majority of Arabs and Muslims. Their anti-Israeli attitude is saturated with anti-Semitism -- partly borrowed from Europe and partly reflecting a strain of anti-Jewish bigotry in their own history. Instead of purging themselves of this bigotry and reconciling with Jews and Israel, they have perverted Islam into an anti-Jewish faith.

Perverting Islam

This last resonates with me. If only pays any attention to the Muslim world one sees a vast sea of hatred. I know people like to speak about the "moderates" and portray the likes of Hezbollah and Iran's government as anomalies, but I don't see it that way. The Muslim world media; books, newspapers, magazines, television, radio and film, are saturated with anti-semitic rants and images. And there is no sense of fairness, no sense of balance, no interest or seemingly even an awareness of the idea of compromise.

Have a look at the following. It's simply a news release by a local group of Muslims. Now the reason I call it to the reader's attention is not simply because of how one-sided it is, but because this was a release in English intended for an English Canadian audience. In other words, this is local Muslim's idea of bending over backwards to seem fair and reasonable.

Press Release

You'll note it contains not one single word or reference to any Israeli casualties, or to any attack on Israel.

And this is what "Muslim professionals" think is a reasonable appeal to Canadians. Now what do you think the Muslim world is saying where it isn't trying to appeal to English Canadians? How do you suppose the Muslim world outside Canada view things? We don't really have to wonder, as the internet brings us plenty of information about the rabid anti-Israel, Jew-hating words coming from Muslim world leaders, Muslim religious leaders, Muslim media spokesmen, Muslim academics and Muslim artists. Even children's schoolbooks are filled with incitement to hate Jews, Israelis, and, though to a lesser degree, the rest of the non-Muslim world.

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Also If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

How does one "negotiate" a resolution to disagreements with such people?

Oh, but he's an anomally, right? He's not admired by millions and tens of millions of Muslims, right? He wouldn't be given joyful victory parades in most of the large cities in the Muslim world for "standing up to the evil Jews"?

And Osama bin Laden? His face isn't on walls and t-shirts from Bombay to Lagos?

In today's column, David Warren speaks of a Shiite village in southern Lebanon, where, a century ago, women did not wear bukhas and Jews were not hated, and concludes:

The people of Shia villages in southern Lebanon are still Shiites, to be sure; but they have been transformed, under the influence of a vicious ideology, into agents of fanatics giving orders from far away. And the new clothing is only the outward manifestation. Their religion has been changed within them, from time-honoured custom to something hateful and unspeakably aggressive.

Iran's president recently questioned if Jews are human. Two weeks ago Syria's minister of Religious Endowment, Muhammad 'Abd Al-Sattar called for Holy war during a television interview, and called Jews - note, not Israelis, Jews, "descendants of pigs and dogs". You can find quotes from all across the Muslim world from leading clerics, politicians and media figures praising suicide bombing and inciting hatred against Israel and Jews.

So how does anyone expect there is ever going to be peace between Israel and the Arab world? There won't be. The only option I see for Israel is either to die, or to hammer its neighbours so badly, lay such waste to its tormenters, that they will be too busy trying to hold what passes for civilization over there together to worry about attacking Israel.

[BubberMiley]

Only blood brings freedom: didn't Mussolini say that?

[cybercoma]

Only blood brings freedom: didn't Mussolini say that?

Leave your flippant remarks at the door and offer a solution then.

Explain how negotiating with religious fanatics is possible? They don't believe in reason, they believe in faith. Help those who don't understand how diplomacy can work to understand.

[GostHacked]

Only blood brings freedom: didn't Mussolini say that?

Leave your flippant remarks at the door and offer a solution then.

Explain how negotiating with religious fanatics is possible? They don't believe in reason, they believe in faith. Help those who don't understand how diplomacy can work to understand.

I have a hard time trying to negotiate with teh extreeeeeeem Christian Right. It is not a flippant remark if the remark is true.

It is not diplomacy they or us need to understand. It is each other we need to understand. Untill then, people are going to get killed. Today the notion of 'live and let live' is dead.

[BubberMiley]

Leave your flippant remarks at the door and offer a solution then.

I was actually thinking of "Blood alone moves the wheels of history." It's a little more poetic too.

[jdobbin]

It was the U.S. working with others that came up with this so-called cynical plan. Perhaps they should have contributed all of the troops and kicked ass.

[geoffrey]

So the latest band-aid is ready to be applied by a cynical UN. There'll be UN troops along the border for a while to calm things down, but no likelihood the local Islamonazi group will be disarmed. The troops will withdraw in a year or so, and the whole thing will likely start over again.

I forgot how successful the Israel bombing roads, bridges and airports was. Let's do that instead, maybe we'll kill and catch 5 or 6 'Islamonazi's' within the next decade.

I simply do not believe there can be any lasting peace between a Jewish nation and Islamofascists who are dedicated to the death of every Jew on the planet.

Probably not. Direct your concerns to the anti-Israel states of Syria and Iran though, not towards Lebanon who is rather moderate in the whole situation.

And I wonder how anyone can actually think there might be. The hatred in that region is too great, and being stoked in every available medium throughout the Muslim world. I think that Salim Mansur said it fairly well in his column today

Anyone familiar with the Middle East's history must know the current war triggered by Hezbollah's Hassan Nasrallah against Israel is part of a long scenario reaching back to the founding of the Jewish state in 1947. In fact, it goes even further back to the Balfour Declaration of November 1917, announcing the British government's support for the establishment of a Jewish home in what was then called Palestine.

The defining aspect of this history is Arab-Muslim refusal to recognize Jewish rights in Palestine.

Yes, and your point is what? Killing about half should stop the hate right? I do agree with his last point.

More importantly, in speaking about prospects for peace, Mansur writes:

But it seems to me there is also an insidious psychology pervasive in the thinking and politics of perhaps a majority of Arabs and Muslims. Their anti-Israeli attitude is saturated with anti-Semitism -- partly borrowed from Europe and partly reflecting a strain of anti-Jewish bigotry in their own history. Instead of purging themselves of this bigotry and reconciling with Jews and Israel, they have perverted Islam into an anti-Jewish faith.

True. But Argus, killing a whole bunch of them will end their anti-semetism right? Just shoot them, bomb them whatever, it all works. The more you kill, the happier they are with Israel!!

This last resonates with me. If only pays any attention to the Muslim world one sees a vast sea of hatred. I know people like to speak about the "moderates" and portray the likes of Hezbollah and Iran's government as anomalies, but I don't see it that way.

Of course you don't, you still reject the premise that most people in Lebanon voted for peace, but hey, live in your ignorant world all you want. If it lets you sleep at night while posting such forum topics, all the power to ya.

Have a look at the following. It's simply a news release by a local group of Muslims. Now the reason I call it to the reader's attention is not simply because of how one-sided it is, but because this was a release in English intended for an English Canadian audience. In other words, this is local Muslim's idea of bending over backwards to seem fair and reasonable.

Press Release

You'll note it contains not one single word or reference to any Israeli casualties, or to any attack on Israel.

And this is what "Muslim professionals" think is a reasonable appeal to Canadians. Now what do you think the Muslim world is saying where it isn't trying to appeal to English Canadians? How do you suppose the Muslim world outside Canada view things? We don't really have to wonder, as the internet brings us plenty of information about the rabid anti-Israel, Jew-hating words coming from Muslim world leaders, Muslim religious leaders, Muslim media spokesmen, Muslim academics and Muslim artists. Even children's schoolbooks are filled with incitement to hate Jews, Israelis, and, though to a lesser degree, the rest of the non-Muslim world.

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Also If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

How does one "negotiate" a resolution to disagreements with such people?

Such people need to be jailed or killed.

Oh, but he's an anomally, right? He's not admired by millions and tens of millions of Muslims, right? He wouldn't be given joyful victory parades in most of the large cities in the Muslim world for "standing up to the evil Jews"?

Maybe normal for Iran or Syria, but most Muslims? Nah.

And Osama bin Laden? His face isn't on walls and t-shirts from Bombay to Lagos?

Yup, he's got his followers.

In today's column, David Warren speaks of a Shiite village in southern Lebanon, where, a century ago, women did not wear bukhas and Jews were not hated, and concludes:

The people of Shia villages in southern Lebanon are still Shiites, to be sure; but they have been transformed, under the influence of a vicious ideology, into agents of fanatics giving orders from far away. And the new clothing is only the outward manifestation. Their religion has been changed within them, from time-honoured custom to something hateful and unspeakably aggressive.

Then let's deal with Hezbollah, who with their control over education, change people into these aggressive Jew haters. Bombing all muslims sure doesn't work.

Iran's president recently questioned if Jews are human. Two weeks ago Syria's minister of Religious Endowment, Muhammad 'Abd Al-Sattar called for Holy war during a television interview, and called Jews - note, not Israelis, Jews, "descendants of pigs and dogs". You can find quotes from all across the Muslim world from leading clerics, politicians and media figures praising suicide bombing and inciting hatred against Israel and Jews.

That doesn't suprise me, Iran's government is viciously anti-semetic. Then again, millions protest their government all the time in Iran, so I don't know if we can just carpet bomb them quite yet Argus. Let's give them a few days anyways.

So how does anyone expect there is ever going to be peace between Israel and the Arab world? There won't be. The only option I see for Israel is either to die, or to hammer its neighbours so badly, lay such waste to its tormenters, that they will be too busy trying to hold what passes for civilization over there together to worry about attacking Israel.

Yes, bombing people sure makes them more comfortable with Israel being around. You'd have to kill the Muslims in the Muslim states to make sure you got them all. And to suggest such a thing is to suggest genocide in no greater terms.

--

Killing more civilians that happen to disagree with Israel (or in the case of most people in Lebanon, want peace with Israel) won't bring peace to the region. It doesn't even make sense, what has gotten into you Argus?

[treborc]

I cannot really think of any modern battle which has resulted in peace, if the people of Iraq want peace and democracy they will get it, problem is they never had it and you cannot give democracy to people.

Afghanistan the Russians tried to get this country and failed, the Russians used a dam sight more military then the UK or USA and they will fail, because the people want the old ways, it is natural to them, OK the Teleban are not the norm, sadly these people have lived like this for hundreds of years.

To day the UK has brought tanks out of mothballs, these tanks have been laying in yards and museums since 1960, they will have new engines fitted and be moved to both Iraq and Afghanistan, that will tell you how bad it has become.

Israel was formed after the war the UK decided we needed a home for all the Jews which the UK did not want, so they helped form Israel, the USA then armed this country while not allowing others to arm, now we have a super state in the middle east. Iran is a country of Fanatics we all know this, yet they are big enough and powerful enough to have a nuke, and mad enough to use them, but who can blame them.

In the UK Blair goes on about other countries not having any Nukes he says they are not needed, the next words out of his mouth are the UK need a nuclear arms to keep the peace, what does he think the Welsh are going to invade.

The time has come for the bigger nations to stop and think before invading a country, Iraq will return to the same old ways, the USA place Saddam in power and are doing the same again, once the US and the UK leave we will have infighting, and the president of Iraq will refuse to step down, and here we go again.

War is not the answer what is well leave them to it might be better. as for Israel until others can match the army they have Israel will use might to regain more land.

[Argus]

Only blood brings freedom: didn't Mussolini say that?

Actually, I was paraphrasing Jefferson

[Argus]

I have a hard time trying to negotiate with teh extreeeeeeem Christian Right. It is not a flippant remark if the remark is true.

The "extreme right" here thinks Homosexuals should only have "civil unions"

The Islamists think homosexuals should be executed and dumped into mass graves.

You don't see a difference in attitude?

It is not diplomacy they or us need to understand. It is each other we need to understand. Untill then, people are going to get killed. Today the notion of 'live and let live' is dead.

I understand they despise anyone not exactly like them. What more should I understand?

[Argus]

So the latest band-aid is ready to be applied by a cynical UN. There'll be UN troops along the border for a while to calm things down, but no likelihood the local Islamonazi group will be disarmed. The troops will withdraw in a year or so, and the whole thing will likely start over again.

I forgot how successful the Israel bombing roads, bridges and airports was. Let's do that instead, maybe we'll kill and catch 5 or 6 'Islamonazi's' within the next decade.

They were pinpricks. What was needed was total destruction of everything within katusha range of the border.

I simply do not believe there can be any lasting peace between a Jewish nation and Islamofascists who are dedicated to the death of every Jew on the planet.

Probably not. Direct your concerns to the anti-Israel states of Syria and Iran though, not towards Lebanon who is rather moderate in the whole situation.

Hezbollah is not moderate. and Hezbollah, as far as I can see, is supported by all Lebanese Shiites.

More importantly, in speaking about prospects for peace, Mansur writes:

But it seems to me there is also an insidious psychology pervasive in the thinking and politics of perhaps a majority of Arabs and Muslims. Their anti-Israeli attitude is saturated with anti-Semitism -- partly borrowed from Europe and partly reflecting a strain of anti-Jewish bigotry in their own history. Instead of purging themselves of this bigotry and reconciling with Jews and Israel, they have perverted Islam into an anti-Jewish faith.

True. But Argus, killing a whole bunch of them will end their anti-semetism right? Just shoot them, bomb them whatever, it all works. The more you kill, the happier they are with Israel!!

My point is that there will be no lasting peace with such people, and Israel will never be safe from them no matter what they do or say or agree to. Their only defence, then, is a ferociously strong offense not moderated by the snivelling of westerners who are far from danger. Ten thousand people a month die in Darfur and nobody cares. But people are pulling their hair out over a few hundred Lebanese? Why? You ever stop to think about that? We should just let the Israelis do their worst and stop trying to hold them back.

This last resonates with me. If only pays any attention to the Muslim world one sees a vast sea of hatred. I know people like to speak about the "moderates" and portray the likes of Hezbollah and Iran's government as anomalies, but I don't see it that way.

Of course you don't, you still reject the premise that most people in Lebanon voted for peace, but hey, live in your ignorant world all you want. If it lets you sleep at night while posting such forum topics, all the power to ya.

And you in your ignorant, intellectually lazy, emotionally weepy appeals to protect a few Lebanese ignore, completely, that almost all the attacks in Lebanon have been on people who support Hezbollah, and who would, if they had the opportunity, slaughter every Jew on the planet - and then come for the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and whoever else they're told is offensive to their God. Remove Hezbollah completely and fly in a hundred homosexuals to march down the centre of Beirut in a gay rights parade. How many do you think will be alive at the end of it?

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Also If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

How does one "negotiate" a resolution to disagreements with such people?

Such people need to be jailed or killed.

And what of a society which makes heros of such people? What of a culture which is filled with people who admire "such people", who trumpet their accomplishments, listen, spellbound, to their speeches, and vow to follow them?

Oh, but he's an anomally, right? He's not admired by millions and tens of millions of Muslims, right? He wouldn't be given joyful victory parades in most of the large cities in the Muslim world for "standing up to the evil Jews"?

Maybe normal for Iran or Syria, but most Muslims? Nah.

What makes you think Iran or Syria are any different than Yemen and Egypt? It is very clear that if for whatever reason, the Egyptian government decided to have free and fair elections next month that country would be a Muslim theocracy the day after the election. Whenever they ease up on voting restrictions even a little, Muslim extremists are elected. In fact, I'll go out on not much of a limb to say that if the Muslim world decided to hold free and fair elections extremists would be elected to lead every single Muslim nation on Earth.

[BubberMiley]

Hezbollah is not moderate. and Hezbollah, as far as I can see, is supported by all Lebanese Shiites.

All Lebanese Shiites? You obviously aren't looking very far, though you probably haven't actually been anywhere near Lebanon to find out. Though I would grant that Hezbollah is likely more popular than it was before now that Israel is bombing children indiscriminantly.

[mcqueen625]

So the latest band-aid is ready to be applied by a cynical UN. There'll be UN troops along the border for a while to calm things down, but no likelihood the local Islamonazi group will be disarmed. The troops will withdraw in a year or so, and the whole thing will likely start over again.

I simply do not believe there can be any lasting peace between a Jewish nation and Islamofascists who are dedicated to the death of every Jew on the planet.

And I wonder how anyone can actually think there might be. The hatred in that region is too great, and being stoked in every available medium throughout the Muslim world. I think that Salim Mansur said it fairly well in his column today:

Anyone familiar with the Middle East's history must know the current war triggered by Hezbollah's Hassan Nasrallah against Israel is part of a long scenario reaching back to the founding of the Jewish state in 1947. In fact, it goes even further back to the Balfour Declaration of November 1917, announcing the British government's support for the establishment of a Jewish home in what was then called Palestine.

The defining aspect of this history is Arab-Muslim refusal to recognize Jewish rights in Palestine.

More importantly, in speaking about prospects for peace, Mansur writes:

But it seems to me there is also an insidious psychology pervasive in the thinking and politics of perhaps a majority of Arabs and Muslims. Their anti-Israeli attitude is saturated with anti-Semitism -- partly borrowed from Europe and partly reflecting a strain of anti-Jewish bigotry in their own history. Instead of purging themselves of this bigotry and reconciling with Jews and Israel, they have perverted Islam into an anti-Jewish faith.

Perverting Islam

This last resonates with me. If only pays any attention to the Muslim world one sees a vast sea of hatred. I know people like to speak about the "moderates" and portray the likes of Hezbollah and Iran's government as anomalies, but I don't see it that way. The Muslim world media; books, newspapers, magazines, television, radio and film, are saturated with anti-semitic rants and images. And there is no sense of fairness, no sense of balance, no interest or seemingly even an awareness of the idea of compromise.

Have a look at the following. It's simply a news release by a local group of Muslims. Now the reason I call it to the reader's attention is not simply because of how one-sided it is, but because this was a release in English intended for an English Canadian audience. In other words, this is local Muslim's idea of bending over backwards to seem fair and reasonable.

Press Release

You'll note it contains not one single word or reference to any Israeli casualties, or to any attack on Israel.

And this is what "Muslim professionals" think is a reasonable appeal to Canadians. Now what do you think the Muslim world is saying where it isn't trying to appeal to English Canadians? How do you suppose the Muslim world outside Canada view things? We don't really have to wonder, as the internet brings us plenty of information about the rabid anti-Israel, Jew-hating words coming from Muslim world leaders, Muslim religious leaders, Muslim media spokesmen, Muslim academics and Muslim artists. Even children's schoolbooks are filled with incitement to hate Jews, Israelis, and, though to a lesser degree, the rest of the non-Muslim world.

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Also If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

How does one "negotiate" a resolution to disagreements with such people?

Oh, but he's an anomally, right? He's not admired by millions and tens of millions of Muslims, right? He wouldn't be given joyful victory parades in most of the large cities in the Muslim world for "standing up to the evil Jews"?

And Osama bin Laden? His face isn't on walls and t-shirts from Bombay to Lagos?

In today's column, David Warren speaks of a Shiite village in southern Lebanon, where, a century ago, women did not wear bukhas and Jews were not hated, and concludes:

The people of Shia villages in southern Lebanon are still Shiites, to be sure; but they have been transformed, under the influence of a vicious ideology, into agents of fanatics giving orders from far away. And the new clothing is only the outward manifestation. Their religion has been changed within them, from time-honoured custom to something hateful and unspeakably aggressive.

Iran's president recently questioned if Jews are human. Two weeks ago Syria's minister of Religious Endowment, Muhammad 'Abd Al-Sattar called for Holy war during a television interview, and called Jews - note, not Israelis, Jews, "descendants of pigs and dogs". You can find quotes from all across the Muslim world from leading clerics, politicians and media figures praising suicide bombing and inciting hatred against Israel and Jews.

So how does anyone expect there is ever going to be peace between Israel and the Arab world? There won't be. The only option I see for Israel is either to die, or to hammer its neighbours so badly, lay such waste to its tormenters, that they will be too busy trying to hold what passes for civilization over there together to worry about attacking Israel.

The latest new on HNN states that although the Lebanese government including the 2 Hezbollah members have unanimously agreed to the UN Plan to bring peace to the area, the military wing of Hezbollah has decided that they will not disarm. The want to still be capable militarily to fire rockets into Israel. This shows graphically that Hezbollah does in fact not want peace. What they want is for Israel to be incapable of defending themselves so that Hezbollah and Hamas can attack Israel at will without fear of reprisals. I think the international community should stay out of it, and allow nature to take it's course. That course I'm sure will be the total defeat of Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Palestine.

My take is that the only people the hypocrit Koffi Annan, and the U.N. seems concerned about are the arab states. If the U.N. can't be at least fair in their comdemnation of violence they should pack up their biases and go back to Geneva and the U.N. Headquarters in New York. In fact maybe it is time Canada stops contributing to this wanabe world government considering their biases and corruption.

[Argus]

Hezbollah is not moderate. and Hezbollah, as far as I can see, is supported by all Lebanese Shiites.

All Lebanese Shiites? You obviously aren't looking very far, though you probably haven't actually been anywhere near Lebanon to find out. Though I would grant that Hezbollah is likely more popular than it was before now that Israel is bombing children indiscriminantly.

What would you consider an indication of support? All south Lebanon seats in parliament went to Hezbollah and affiliated parties. That sounds like pretty big supprot. Latest poll shows 87% of Lebanese support Hezbollah. That makes the Lebanese about as innocent as the Germans in WW2 who supported the Nazis.

[Black Dog]

Latest poll shows 87% of Lebanese support Hezbollah. That makes the Lebanese about as innocent as the Germans in WW2 who supported the Nazis.

Support for Hizbullah across Lebanese society jumped only after Israel began its campaign.

[Wilber]

I have a hard time trying to negotiate with teh extreeeeeeem Christian Right. It is not a flippant remark if the remark is true.

There are fundamentalists in every religion and while many have a somewhat narrow view of the world, the great majority do not preach violence against those who do not agree with them.

[Argus]

Latest poll shows 87% of Lebanese support Hezbollah. That makes the Lebanese about as innocent as the Germans in WW2 who supported the Nazis.

Support for Hizbullah across Lebanese society jumped only after Israel began its campaign.

And what does that say about the intelligence level of your average Lebanese?

Here's this group which attacked a massively powerful neighbour, bringing death and destruction down on Lebanon, wiping out bridges, roads, power plants, setting back Lebanon's economy and recovery by years, causing hundreds of deaths. And the result from the public is "Wow! I like them! I think they're terrific!"

Maybe Lebanese are just too stupid to ever run their own affairs. Ever think of that?

[Black Dog]

And what does that say about the intelligence level of your average Lebanese?

Here's this group which attacked a massively powerful neighbour, bringing death and destruction down on Lebanon, wiping out bridges, roads, power plants, setting back Lebanon's economy and recovery by years, causing hundreds of deaths. And the result from the public is "Wow! I like them! I think they're terrific!"

Maybe Lebanese are just too stupid to ever run their own affairs. Ever think of that?

No, because any other society would react in the same way.

Also, I thought all the non-Shiite Lebanese were too busy eating ice cream in their quiet, untouched neighbourhoods to care about what's going on. I'm glad you've finally conceded that Israel's actions have punished al of Lebanon and not just Hizbullah and its supporters.

[AndrewL]

Only blood brings freedom? What about Martin Luther King, and Martin Luther before him? What about Rosa Parks?

Andrew

[Argus]

And what does that say about the intelligence level of your average Lebanese?

Here's this group which attacked a massively powerful neighbour, bringing death and destruction down on Lebanon, wiping out bridges, roads, power plants, setting back Lebanon's economy and recovery by years, causing hundreds of deaths. And the result from the public is "Wow! I like them! I think they're terrific!"

Maybe Lebanese are just too stupid to ever run their own affairs. Ever think of that?

No, because any other society would react in the same way.

Bullshit. If my neighbour started firing rockets into the US and the US bombed our street I'd kill my neighbour, not congratulate him on his bravery.

Also, I thought all the non-Shiite Lebanese were too busy eating ice cream in their quiet, untouched neighbourhoods to care about what's going on.

Those neighbourhoods are untouched, according to the BBC

I'm glad you've finally conceded that Israel's actions have punished al of Lebanon and not just Hizbullah and its supporters.

I don't think I ever disagreed with the suggestion that power plants and roads were, in part, being destroyed to teach the other Lebanese that they need to control Hezbollah.

[Argus]

Only blood brings freedom? What about Martin Luther King, and Martin Luther before him? What about Rosa Parks?

Andrew

The civil rights movement in the US caused a lot of blood to be spilled.

[AndrewL]

Only blood brings freedom? What about Martin Luther King, and Martin Luther before him? What about Rosa Parks?

Andrew

The civil rights movement in the US caused a lot of blood to be spilled.

I think you are missing the point. The civil war was in large part due to slavery, and the notion of freedom for slaves. And yes, alot of blood was spilled. But tragically, black people moved out of slacery into second class citizenship, lynchings, mobs, and extreme racism. Yes lots of blood there as well, on the part of the white people.

But actual change for the better, real positive change, came with non-violent civil disobedience backed by a large network of support groups and like-minded people, not through violence.

Violence in the ME is not going to solve anything, on either side. In fact its even worse for israel, at least with Hezbollah we know violence is part of their creed, but with Israel they lose alot more respect and alot more integrity with every bomb they drop, and over 30 days they achieved worse than nothing, they are now ina more precarious situation.

Andrew

[Black Dog]

Bullshit. If my neighbour started firing rockets into the US and the US bombed our street I'd kill my neighbour, not congratulate him on his bravery

Easy for you to say.

Those neighbourhoods are untouched, according to the BBC

What happened to "bringing death and destruction down on Lebanon, wiping out bridges, roads, power plants, setting back Lebanon's economy and recovery by years, causing hundreds of deaths"?

I don't think I ever disagreed with the suggestion that power plants and roads were, in part, being destroyed to teach the other Lebanese that they need to control Hezbollah.

Which was a ridiculous strategy in the first place.

[Rue]

So the latest band-aid is ready to be applied by a cynical UN. There'll be UN troops along the border for a while to calm things down, but no likelihood the local Islamonazi group will be disarmed. The troops will withdraw in a year or so, and the whole thing will likely start over again.

I simply do not believe there can be any lasting peace between a Jewish nation and Islamofascists who are dedicated to the death of every Jew on the planet.

And I wonder how anyone can actually think there might be. The hatred in that region is too great, and being stoked in every available medium throughout the Muslim world. I think that Salim Mansur said it fairly well in his column today:

Anyone familiar with the Middle East's history must know the current war triggered by Hezbollah's Hassan Nasrallah against Israel is part of a long scenario reaching back to the founding of the Jewish state in 1947. In fact, it goes even further back to the Balfour Declaration of November 1917, announcing the British government's support for the establishment of a Jewish home in what was then called Palestine.

The defining aspect of this history is Arab-Muslim refusal to recognize Jewish rights in Palestine.

More importantly, in speaking about prospects for peace, Mansur writes:

But it seems to me there is also an insidious psychology pervasive in the thinking and politics of perhaps a majority of Arabs and Muslims. Their anti-Israeli attitude is saturated with anti-Semitism -- partly borrowed from Europe and partly reflecting a strain of anti-Jewish bigotry in their own history. Instead of purging themselves of this bigotry and reconciling with Jews and Israel, they have perverted Islam into an anti-Jewish faith.

Perverting Islam

This last resonates with me. If only pays any attention to the Muslim world one sees a vast sea of hatred. I know people like to speak about the "moderates" and portray the likes of Hezbollah and Iran's government as anomalies, but I don't see it that way. The Muslim world media; books, newspapers, magazines, television, radio and film, are saturated with anti-semitic rants and images. And there is no sense of fairness, no sense of balance, no interest or seemingly even an awareness of the idea of compromise.

Have a look at the following. It's simply a news release by a local group of Muslims. Now the reason I call it to the reader's attention is not simply because of how one-sided it is, but because this was a release in English intended for an English Canadian audience. In other words, this is local Muslim's idea of bending over backwards to seem fair and reasonable.

Press Release

You'll note it contains not one single word or reference to any Israeli casualties, or to any attack on Israel.

And this is what "Muslim professionals" think is a reasonable appeal to Canadians. Now what do you think the Muslim world is saying where it isn't trying to appeal to English Canadians? How do you suppose the Muslim world outside Canada view things? We don't really have to wonder, as the internet brings us plenty of information about the rabid anti-Israel, Jew-hating words coming from Muslim world leaders, Muslim religious leaders, Muslim media spokesmen, Muslim academics and Muslim artists. Even children's schoolbooks are filled with incitement to hate Jews, Israelis, and, though to a lesser degree, the rest of the non-Muslim world.

If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. Also If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

How does one "negotiate" a resolution to disagreements with such people?

Oh, but he's an anomally, right? He's not admired by millions and tens of millions of Muslims, right? He wouldn't be given joyful victory parades in most of the large cities in the Muslim world for "standing up to the evil Jews"?

And Osama bin Laden? His face isn't on walls and t-shirts from Bombay to Lagos?

In today's column, David Warren speaks of a Shiite village in southern Lebanon, where, a century ago, women did not wear bukhas and Jews were not hated, and concludes:

The people of Shia villages in southern Lebanon are still Shiites, to be sure; but they have been transformed, under the influence of a vicious ideology, into agents of fanatics giving orders from far away. And the new clothing is only the outward manifestation. Their religion has been changed within them, from time-honoured custom to something hateful and unspeakably aggressive.

Iran's president recently questioned if Jews are human. Two weeks ago Syria's minister of Religious Endowment, Muhammad 'Abd Al-Sattar called for Holy war during a television interview, and called Jews - note, not Israelis, Jews, "descendants of pigs and dogs". You can find quotes from all across the Muslim world from leading clerics, politicians and media figures praising suicide bombing and inciting hatred against Israel and Jews.

So how does anyone expect there is ever going to be peace between Israel and the Arab world? There won't be. The only option I see for Israel is either to die, or to hammer its neighbours so badly, lay such waste to its tormenters, that they will be too busy trying to hold what passes for civilization over there together to worry about attacking Israel.

The cold reality is that there may be a termporary lull but never an end to fighting. Israel is involved unfortunately in a cultural war that is far greater then just Israel but a very real cultural and religious war by fundamentalist Muslims against what they perceive as the corupt West.

I guess the question is, what does anyone do to try cultivate an alternative to fundamentalist terrorism as a political option in the Middle East. Is it possible? I think the crux of the issue can be found in the fact that the majority of the Muslim world still does not read and write and depends on its religious clerical figures to tell it how to think. As long as the literacy rate remains low, freedom of thought just can not be cultivated and so we can't get to a level where we can convince people that there is something in between black and white.

I think the pith and substance of the lack of moderation in the Middle East flows from the anthropological reality that Muslim society is still a good 200 years away from reaching critical thought on a wide spread basis.

Moderate educated Muslims are still in the minority world wide and usually do not feel they are in the position to make much of a difference and certainly I know scores of Muslims who are moderate and on one level would be very candid and admit Israel should have the right to exist, but on another level would not dare say so publically for fear of the social stigma that is attached to being friendly or seen as being friendly with Israelis or any Jews.

[Argus]

Bullshit. If my neighbour started firing rockets into the US and the US bombed our street I'd kill my neighbour, not congratulate him on his bravery

Easy for you to say.

Because I'm a rational human being, you mean, unlike the Lebanese?

Which was a ridiculous strategy in the first place.

No, it was based upon the idea the Lebanese are sane and, at least to a degree, rational. I'll agree that if the Lebanese are moronic imbeciles it was a poor strategy.