The Native Shakedown of Innocent People Continues

[bearcat]

The government, once it is in sesion is bound to follow Crown law. Crown law says that the Haldimand Tract belongs to us. You government will simply enforce their laws over you to pay the tab for their mistakes.

The government is free to pass new laws and even change the constitution if necessary. Six Nations will get nothing unless the majority of Canadians believe that it will benefit them. This is the reality that at least some people from Six Nations seem to recognize.

Government - or Politicians ... hmmmm. therein DOES lie a difference, eh?!?

Be wary of what the politcos promise to do for you Canadians ... change the constitution ... HAHAHAHA, yeah - right - HAHAHAHAH

Crown Law is ... uhh, ummm . errr - Crown Law. There ya go.

[Riverwind]

Be wary of what the politcos promise to do for you Canadians ... change the constitution ... HAHAHAHA, yeah - right - HAHAHAHAH

The gov't will never agree to a deal that requires taxpayers to make significant sacrifices. The gov't would simply let it go to the SCC instead. In prior judgements the SCC has placed many limits native land claims because of the potential impact on non-native society so it is unlikely that the SCC would rule that Six Nations would be entitled to a settlement that would have a negative impact on the economy as a whole (i.e. require huge tax increases to pay for). In the unlikely event that the SCC did rule in Six Nations favour you would see politicians lining up to make whatever constitutional change is necessary to limit the liability in the Six Nations case and any future cases that may be based on it.

You are fooling yourself if you believe that any other outcome is likely.

[skyclad]

Dizzy Tsi

Maybe you are smoking too much sacred tobacco

The Great Law defines the Long House land as Central/Northern NY. It even names the eastern and western gates in NY state. (that oral tradition once again getting in the way)

The only people who belong to the Great Law of the Long House are the 6Nations, none other; also named in the Great Law.

There is no evidence that the 6Nations ever settled in S Central Ontario. All research shows a combination of Erie, Neutral and Chippewa all blood enemies of the 6Nations.

The Erie and Neutrals were effectively rubbed out by the 5/6Nations.

The Mississauga which are Chippewa of the Algonquin tribes, sold the land to Butler at Newark (Niagara on the Lake now) in the presence of J. Brant, and Brant was OK with Miss. selling to Butler.

Brant made no claim it was 6Nations land. (oral tradition sucks; what did Brant remember, that natives today forgot )

The only time 6Nation people were on S Central Ont land was on raiding parties, that's all.

Further, the Algonquins and Hurons booted the 6Nations out of Montreal region more then a thousand years ago..(just wana forgot that oral tradition now don't we..) then they booted around by the Mahicians (known as the Mohigians in Fenimore's book),when they numbered about 1000 people. When Brant when to the Grand River, he brought about 1600 people, by 1841, the population was about 2000 people,

By the way, clan chiefs can only smoke tobacco, then only when council is called. Sorta for the selct few. (yep oral tradition is really sucking at this point.. hope no natives on the rez is smoking tobacco..what is the punishment for non clan chiefs smoking tobacco anyway)

The Hurons and Algonquins long before 6Nations had confederacy under the Great Law, had more powerful confederacies that were far more advanced. The 5/6Nation confed. was a poor copy. The peacemaker actually was a Huron who broght the great law concept to the 5/6Nations, borrowed from Huron/Algonq culture

[mister_v]

To my fellow loyal and proud Canadians, I think what Tsi and his Six Nations fanatics are trying to say in all their blathering is that the Iroquois are the new Master Race and we are just the sub-human inhabitants of their domain. Haudenesaunee über alles baby!

[skyclad]

Interesting you mention 'master race'

One of the oral traditions speaks of the 5Nations (pre Tusarora) desire to conquer N America from Quebec to Florida (getting Montreal back again!)

Oral trad. also speak of the complex slave culture within the 5Nations

on raiding parties they would capture men, and women

the young men would be adopted by the clan chief and made a warrior, (all that raiding, you needed cannon fodder).

Older men would have their ankle smashed and do all the menial labour around the long house settlement.

Slave Women on the other hand had it tougher. One of the clan mothers roles was to be in charge of farming. Guess what there was a lot of hand work, watering, planting harvesting, weeding all done in the hot sun; done by slave women and other women of the tribe, young hotties on the other hand were chosen by the clan chiefs to be another wife, as clan chiefs had to marry outside of the clan.

Clan chiefs were usually older.

Good things, these oral traditions were put on wampum (done by slave women) we can read these things and understand 5Nation culture better.

[mister_v]

...young hotties on the other hand were chosen by the clan chiefs to be another wife, as clan chiefs had to marry outside of the clan.

Its good to be the chief.

[Live From China]

Several native posters in this forum have claimed that every non-native person in the country "owes" natives trillions of dollars for "stealing" the land and resources and rudely insult and denigrate people who suggest that their claims are a tad unreasonable.

Thanks, Riverwind. Everytime I hear such stuff, I too, shake my head.

In one of the threads (they seem to be popping up all over the place), one poster respectfully indicated that such massive amounts of money were simply not available. The reply was a childish, "Well, that's your problem!" No, it is NOT our problem. It is yours. We have some money, you are NOT going to get all of it, NOT even close to all of it. And you are certainly NOT going to be handed money that doesn't exist (basic Law of Thermodynamics here ).

Such antics do not even approach a desire to bargain in good faith.

[Okwaho]

Dizzy Tsi

Maybe you are smoking too much sacred tobacco

The Great Law defines the Long House land as Central/Northern NY. It even names the eastern and western gates in NY state. (that oral tradition once again getting in the way)

The only people who belong to the Great Law of the Long House are the 6Nations, none other; also named in the Great Law.

Well...I see you're still trying to be an expert on the Kaianerenkowa! How many nations are mentioned in it? I think you'd better find a better source than the one you're using! I belive the peace maker established FIVE. The Tuscaroras entered in 1714.

There is no evidence that the 6Nations ever settled in S Central Ontario. All research shows a combination of Erie, Neutral and Chippewa all blood enemies of the 6Nations.

The Erie and Neutrals were effectively rubbed out by the 5/6Nations.

The Erielhonan (Erie) and Attawantaron (Neutrals) were not "rubbed" out by the Five Nations. Both Nations were adopted into both the Wendat (Huron) and the Five Nations.

The Mississauga which are Chippewa of the Algonquin tribes, sold the land to Butler at Newark (Niagara on the Lake now) in the presence of J. Brant, and Brant was OK with Miss. selling to Butler.

Brant made no claim it was 6Nations land. (oral tradition sucks; what did Brant remember, that natives today forgot )

Col. John Butler the founder of the Butler's Rangers for his service to the Crown during the American Revolutionary war was given a King's grant of land. Butler's Rangers were often refered to as "White Savages or Blue Eyed Savages" as they lived our way of life and fought using our tactics. They can be treced back to Rogers Rangers of the F&I war and their standing orders are still the standing orders of the U.S. Army Rangers to this day. He wished to settle among his friends the Six Nations and was granted permission from them through Joseph Brant. The town was originally called Butlersville then Newark and is presently Niagara on the lake. The Young family in the town of Cayuga were given the same permission. Many of the men that served with the Butler's Rangers and the King's Rolyal Yorkers wished to live among us and many were married in to our Nations.

The only time 6Nation people were on S Central Ont land was on raiding parties, that's all.

Further, the Algonquins and Hurons booted the 6Nations out of Montreal region more then a thousand years ago..(just wana forgot that oral tradition now don't we..) then they booted around by the Mahicians (known as the Mohigians in Fenimore's book),when they numbered about 1000 people. When Brant when to the Grand River, he brought about 1600 people, by 1841, the population was about 2000 people,

You really need to find better sources for your arguments! Under Toronto's Young St. sits a Seneca village and if you go to the township of Milton west of Burlington you'll find a rebuilt Seneca village built pole for pole. I do believe they are situated in Southern Ontario! If you go south as far as Ohio and Indiana you find numerous Seneca village locations. Sandusky, Ohio is well noted for Seneca presence. There were also a few Mohawk villages down there as well. That is where Joseph Brant was born! If you know any Shawnee people from Ohio they can verify but you might not want to believe their oral history!

By the way, clan chiefs can only smoke tobacco, then only when council is called. Sorta for the selct few. (yep oral tradition is really sucking at this point.. hope no natives on the rez is smoking tobacco..what is the punishment for non clan chiefs smoking tobacco anyway)

What hat did you pull this one from? I think you're confusing the opening of council and cerimonial burning/smoking of tobacco with the regular personal smoking of tobacco! When the chiefs are smoking or burning tobacco during a council or cerimony, no one else is allowed to smoke or burn at the same time. When the council or cerimony is completed the people may resume smoking. We cultivated tobacco and had our own personal pipes called "efigy pipes."

The Hurons and Algonquins long before 6Nations had confederacy under the Great Law, had more powerful confederacies that were far more advanced. The 5/6Nation confed. was a poor copy. The peacemaker actually was a Huron who broght the great law concept to the 5/6Nations, borrowed from Huron/Algonq culture

I don't think our Wendat and Anishnabe brothers and sisters would appreciate your words too much!!!

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

There is no intelligence in any of their incontenant posts, Okwaho. Maybe a laxative is in order for all of them. They certainly are full of it.

O:nen

[Canuck E Stan]

She:kon!

There is no intelligence in any of their incontenant posts, Okwaho. Maybe a laxative is in order for all of them. They certainly are full of it.

O:nen

Tsi the troll

Always unable to debate without having diarrhea of the oral mouth and having your brain in constipation mode.

That my friend is the easy way out and shows no intelligence.

[skyclad]

I assume you mean Crawford Lake on Guelph line, unfortunately your oral tradition is wrong, the village is Wendat which is Huron and part of the Iroquois langauge group. The actual village represents what a typical village would look like in the area. I have actually been there, unlike you.

Just for you natives where oral tradition fails, here is listing of indian tribes and areas.

www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.GlossaryIndianNations.html

Just so you know, not all Iroquois are 6nations.

Brant was open to any area, but since they had to buy it from the mississaugas , the 5/6natiosn didn't own it.

Eries and Neutrals certainly were absorbed, they were captured as slaves by 5/6natiosn or fled for their lives.

And no, the Hurons hate the 6nations.

Again you are incorrect it was Bultersburg then Newark, not Butlersville, that's in PA

[mister_v]

The Erielhonan (Erie) and Attawantaron (Neutrals) were not "rubbed" out by the Five Nations. Both Nations were adopted into both the Wendat (Huron) and the Five Nations.

"Adopted". Is that the Iroquois revisionist way to describe genocidal wars where the survivors either fled or were absorbed into the Confederacy? Another wonderful example of the "oral tradition" where the ugly stuff gets whitewashed by the elders as it passes from generation to generation?

[mister_v]

They certainly are full of it.

Come on Tsi, from your posts to these boards we all know you want to party like its the year 1600, that you want to relive the glory days of the Confederacy. Be a man, admit it.

Here's some harsh truth for you: it isn't going to happen at the expense of the great nation of Canada.

[skyclad]

Actually the 5/6nations did a lot of adopting, by the point of their flint spears.

[Okwaho]

Interesting you mention 'master race'

One of the oral traditions speaks of the 5Nations (pre Tusarora) desire to conquer N America from Quebec to Florida (getting Montreal back again!)

Oral trad. also speak of the complex slave culture within the 5Nations

on raiding parties they would capture men, and women

the young men would be adopted by the clan chief and made a warrior, (all that raiding, you needed cannon fodder).

Older men would have their ankle smashed and do all the menial labour around the long house settlement.

Slave Women on the other hand had it tougher. One of the clan mothers roles was to be in charge of farming. Guess what there was a lot of hand work, watering, planting harvesting, weeding all done in the hot sun; done by slave women and other women of the tribe, young hotties on the other hand were chosen by the clan chiefs to be another wife, as clan chiefs had to marry outside of the clan.

Clan chiefs were usually older.

Good things, these oral traditions were put on wampum (done by slave women) we can read these things and understand 5Nation culture better.

Where do you get this crap???

[Live From China]

There is no intelligence in any of their incontenant posts, Okwaho. Maybe a laxative is in order for all of them. They certainly are full of it.

I must agree with the majority of the posters that such comments have nothing to do with intelligent discourse. These types of verbal "antics" smack of nothing more than an angry elementary school mouth in the schoolyard, and no one can really take their claims seriously. Sort of like saying, "The louder I scream, the "righter" my argument will be."

Where do you get this crap???

History!

[Riverwind]

In one of the threads (they seem to be popping up all over the place), one poster respectfully indicated that such massive amounts of money were simply not available. The reply was a childish, "Well, that's your problem!"

Tsi is a handy poster to have around - he is like the anti-abortion people in the back benches of the conservative party. He does not speak for the leadership of Six Nations but he certainly makes them look bad and undermines any political support for Six Nations among mainstream Canadians. Of course Tsi doesn't mind that because he thinks that Six Nations does not need political support from mainstream Canadians

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

There is still nothing new that is either intelligent nor pertinient.

I will correct this, however.

I assume you mean Crawford Lake on Guelph line, unfortunately your oral tradition is wrong, the village is Wendat which is Huron

Through the archaeology of the Great Lakes, archaeologists have recently discovered a huge mistake. They had presented their information believing that Huron were the Wendat and therefore assumed all villages along the north shore were Wendat. However, after studying the lithics and ceramics more carefully, they have changed their conclusions. The "Hurons" as the french called them was merely a distinction they used to differentiate between the North Shore Iroquois and the South Shore Iroquois. They essentially looked down the St. Lawrence and claimed one was Iroquois and the othe Huron. They were the same confederacy people, with the Seneca occupying the western region, Cayuga in the central regions and the Mohawk up the St. Lawrence River. The ceramic styles, the clay types and the chert predominently come from the south, while the next major source was along either the Niagara or the Trent, long which our people travelled between the southern villages.

At Crawford Lake specifically the site is operated by the Conservation authority and when they make presentations they mix Mississauga tradition and Seneca tradition constantly. The last time I was there (I have been many times) I attempted to correct them but they were resistent to it. I have also extensively examined their ceramic and lithic collections and found that they are indeed Seneca origin. Crawford Lake site is the actual location of a 12th century village that was discovered by a flute when they were looking at the geology / biology of the lake bottom.

Take that one off your list skyclapper. And take any other village along the north shores too. I have studied these places extensively and they are definitely Confederacy villages - for all of the last 1000 years!

Skyclapper, get yourself some uptodate information. Presenting your 4th grade history books (which were likely stolen from your school) doesn't not amount to valid information. It merely shows how unintelligent you really are by limiting your search to infantile sources.

As to the rest of the trolls, my isn't it wonderful how you all come out and still don't add to the discussion but like little carp go on a feeding frenzy once the big pike move on....

O:nen

[deirdrie]

the latest from tsi on the native site

http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=306

[Riley]

Nice comments there Tsi, would you mind referencing the sites or articles directly?

[Temagami Scourge]

I also thought that Crawford Lake was part of the Neutral Nation, but it is looking more like a Seneca village given the oral tradition.

I have spoke with Wendat people in both Wisconsin and Quebec, and they maintain that their ancestral area before the diaspora was along the hills south of Georgian Bay. The problem clearly appears that the Europeans who recorded the history wanted to simply make things easier by saying that the Iroquois lived in point A, and the Huron lived at Point B.

I do think the Huron lived further south at times. I visited the burial mound just north of Canada's wonderland, on Teston road, back when they were excavating it a couple of years ago, and it was clearly a Huron burial; where all the bones were in one hollowed-out pit, lined with deerskin and stirred up together. Communal burial is a huron-specific trait in these parts, whereas the Algonkian and Iroquois people went with single burials. The Iroquois did also do a Feast of the Dead like the Huron, but the ceremony was different.

Some really cool oral history about the Iroquois Wars concerns Ste. Marie Among the Hurons and the real version of the events that led to the hyped-up martyrdom of Brebeuf and Lalemont.

According to the Wahta people, the "Iroquois" who attacked the mission were actually disaffected Huron who left their nation and joined the Confederacy to get out from under the baleful influence of the priests. The two priests were so pissed at the recalcitrant Huron that they purposefully impregnated a number of Huron women whose husbands were noted citizens who rejected Christianity.

Well, it wasn't long before word got back to the disaffected Huron (living among the Seneca and Cayuga primarily), about what the priests did to their wives, so one thing led to another and poof! instant martyrs!.

I had always wondered about the story of Ste. Marie and the events of the Iroquois Wars. According to mainstream, and the museum at Midland, the Iroquois were particularly horrible in their treatment of the two priests, so that one would get the impression that the Six Nations were mindless savages. however, when you understand what the priests did to the women, then all of a sudden their "savagery" gains a whole new perspective.

Likewise, the concept of wintering over north of Lake Ontario in order to get a jump on the Huron by attacking in spring was sheer strategic genius for that time. What makes it more interesting from my prior military experience was that if the disaffected Hurons were the ones leading the attack, then they would be fully aware of the vulnerabilities that their villages would face at certain times of the year. Driving them off the land before the crops could be planted was an imporatant strategic victory over the Hurons.

lastly, the other aggravating factor that gets little "airplay" given Canadian history was the fact that the Hurons that sided with the Christians were the ones that suffered most. Canadian history maintains that the Iroquois forced adoption on their Huron captives (if you were a Catholic thinker defending the martyrdom of two saints), but it appears that a very significant number of Huron were so unimpressed with the Christian influence that they willing left and sought out adoption by the Confederacy. Those who stayed behind were viewed with contempt by the disaffected, and suffered the consequences.

I find it interesting how this oral tradition seems to answer much of what is missing from the European version of events. Europeans would have us believe that the martyred saints died horribly for their religion, when really they died horribly because they were rapists...much like the priests at the residential schools. Secondly, why didn't the Iroquois figure out the prime Huron weakness much sooner after off and on warfare for centuries, unless there were people around who not only had intimate knowledge of the Wendat social structure, but also knew the location of every Wendat village and the trail system?

My guess is that the truth lies somewhere in between, but I bet the priests did rape Huron women....that sounds like their usual M.O.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

From my understanding (I haven't seen the archaeology reports for the Toronto site you referenced) many of the post-contact villages were blended villages- Iroquois and Mississaugas.. I had heard that two unique things at that site put archaeologists in a quandry. That of the "earthen sweat lodges" built into the side of the longhouse and that of the bear skull encircled by a ring of sticks. There were similar findings at an Oshawa site (Grandview) but it was deer skull. The Oshawa site was a pre-contact site and there are a number of Mississauga influences although it was clearly Cayuga. Two Oshawa sites (McLeaod and Grandview) were farming communities of a much larger village to the south.

We do know that the Wendat did not disappear, anymore than the Seneca and Cayuga people disappeared from here. Rather they became part of something bigger and given the Confederacy expansion into the north lands of the Mississaugas and Wendat where the Mississaugas joined the Covanent Chain at the invitation of the north shore Confederacy Iroquois, it is likely the Wendat also became part of the Confederacy.......oral history references it but I cannot find any references in post-contact written history.

Akia at the Wampum Chronicles has made a connection to the Seven Nations - where the Confederacy was expanded eastward up the St. Lawrence. We know that the British were trying to extend the Covanent Chain as a replacment to the Great Law (not being eligible to be protected by the Kayenera'kowa). My belief based on the infomration I have studied suggests that the Confederacy was much further in the interior - as high as the Kawartha Lakes Region (south and west of Apsley).

As archaeologists uncover more longhouse sites, with the new thinking I believe that they will find a greater distribution of the Confederacy than originally thought.

O:nen

[skyclad]

Dizzy Tsi

This will be short

your two main points are:

1) ceramics/lithics are indicators

2) presence of longhouse poles

Well, ceramics are not good indicators, and here's why

archnet.asu.edu/archives/ceramic/exchange/exchange.html

www.city.north-bay.on.ca/lavase/97FRS412.HTM

Hurons, neutrals and others used longhouses as well.

www.kwic.com/~pagodavista/schoolhouse/rec/attiwan.htm

Those rascially Senecas

You make this so easy

[Okwaho]

I assume you mean Crawford Lake on Guelph line, unfortunately your oral tradition is wrong, the village is Wendat which is Huron and part of the Iroquois langauge group. The actual village represents what a typical village would look like in the area. I have actually been there, unlike you.

Just for you natives where oral tradition fails, here is listing of indian tribes and areas.

www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.GlossaryIndianNations.html

Just so you know, not all Iroquois are 6nations.

Brant was open to any area, but since they had to buy it from the mississaugas , the 5/6natiosn didn't own it.

Really? So there where no Six Nations in Southern Ontario huh?

Baby Point's rich history dates back to the 1600's when it was a prosperous Seneca Nation village known as Teiaiagon. The Seneca people found Teiaiagon to be the perfect location for conducting their fur trading activities as this high peninsula of land located in a bend of the Humber River, was easily defended from attack. http://www.torontoneighbourhoods.net/regions/york/146.html

In the Seneca village of Tinaouataoua on the portage between Burlington Bay and the Grand River,

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_serie...pter3/63-68.htm

The Iroquois occupied the land around the Great Lakes from southern Canada through much of present-day New York State; yet through trade, hunting, and warfare, their influence spread from the Atlantic Ocean to the Mississippi River. At the end of the seventeenth century, there were perhaps 15,000 Iroquois living on one million square miles of territory. http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmnh/exhibi...uois/index.html

The Seneca were the most numerous of the Six Nations of the Iroquois, and Lake Ontario was ringed with their villages. But in the summer of 1687, the French, trying to gain a foothold in the fur trade, razed all those villages in one swoop. They had guns. And cannonballs. http://www.jerryamernic.com/stararticle2.shtml

Eries and Neutrals certainly were absorbed, they were captured as slaves by 5/6natiosn or fled for their lives.

And no, the Hurons hate the 6nations.

You need to watch what you say!!! Our Wendat brothers and sisters really wouldn't appreciate your misinformed comments such as this!

Again you are incorrect it was Bultersburg then Newark, not Butlersville, that's in PA

So Professor...it would seem that our oral history does stand up to the test!!!

[skyclad]

After the 6nations pushed the Eries and Neutrals out, the Seneca moved in , but disappeared after 2 decades +-approx.

The area known as Teiaiagon

www.toronto.ca/culture/history/history-natives-newcomers.htm

Seneca gone in 2 decades

area known as Tinaouataoua

72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:xhN48Rnie0UJ:https://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/FF39F14A-749A-4836-9D18-1E3450F11546/0/ASIExpressPart01.pdf+tinaouataoua&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=11

This was co written with the 6nations so if you have any complaints talk to them.

Typical of conquoring groups to move in and take over, but didn't always work out.