The Native Shakedown of Innocent People Continues

[Okwaho]

After the 6nations pushed the Eries and Neutrals out, the Seneca moved in , but disappeared after 2 decades +-approx.

The area known as Teiaiagon

www.toronto.ca/culture/history/history-natives-newcomers.htm

Seneca gone in 2 decades

area known as Tinaouataoua

72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:xhN48Rnie0UJ:https://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/FF39F14A-749A-4836-9D18-1E3450F11546/0/ASIExpressPart01.pdf+tinaouataoua&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=11

This was co written with the 6nations so if you have any complaints talk to them.

Typical of conquoring groups to move in and take over, but didn't always work out.

Let's stay on the original course now...I believe the statements were;

Dizzy Tsi

There is no evidence that the 6Nations ever settled in S Central Ontario.

and

Just for you natives where oral tradition fails, here is listing of indian tribes and areas.

www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.GlossaryIndianNations.html

You were saying?

[Hicksey]

So what is happening here? Indians taking back North America one plot at a time?

This is what happens when you leave a liberal in charge.

[jdobbin]

So what is happening here? Indians taking back North America one plot at a time?

This is what happens when you leave a liberal in charge.

It's Harper's baby now. What's he doing about it?

[Okwaho]

So what is happening here? Indians taking back North America one plot at a time?

This is what happens when you leave a liberal in charge.

It's Harper's baby now. What's he doing about it?

I believe he's up north asserting Canadas sovereignty preplexed as to how he is going to explain to Her Majesty that his predecessors commited treason by harming the Crowns allies.

[Hicksey]

So what is happening here? Indians taking back North America one plot at a time?

This is what happens when you leave a liberal in charge.

It's Harper's baby now. What's he doing about it?

I was talking about McGuinty.

But I will grant you if Harper was smart he'd kick that idiot aside and handle it himself. I think he should step in with legislation to prevent such claims in the future. He should take this out of the hands of the courts and legislate against it.

If there's one compliment I have for Harper it is that when he sets a goal in his sights he achieves it. However, his focus is way too narrow and as a result issues (such as this one) that also need attention do not get as much as they deserve.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

He should take this out of the hands of the courts and legislate against it.

Harper is impotent. He doesn't have the authority to legislate what to do about land claims because the land title and the rights that accompany them are protected under the Charter. And I doubt that people like McGinty or many other premiers would agree to an consitutional amendment in order to give him the authority.

On our side of the equatio, there is no need for legislation (nor would be subject to it). Our new lands claim process involves taking the land in question back under our control and placing the burden of proof on Canada to prove it was ever relinguished. It is an effective and expedient process that no doubt will be expanded across Canada. Get used to it. There's lots more to come.

O:nen

[Hicksey]

She:kon!

He should take this out of the hands of the courts and legislate against it.

Harper is impotent. He doesn't have the authority to legislate what to do about land claims because the land title and the rights that accompany them are protected under the Charter. And I doubt that people like McGinty or many other premiers would agree to an consitutional amendment in order to give him the authority.

On our side of the equatio, there is no need for legislation (nor would be subject to it). Our new lands claim process involves taking the land in question back under our control and placing the burden of proof on Canada to prove it was ever relinguished. It is an effective and expedient process that no doubt will be expanded across Canada. Get used to it. There's lots more to come.

O:nen

Hopefully it doesn't happen in my lifetime.

Just goes to show you what happens when you leave liberals in charge. Though such a statement sounds elitist and demeaning, I do not mean it like that. I'll give you that liberals have big hearts and often mean well when they do what they do. But IMO they often proceed just for the sake of proceeding and the do not consider long term effect such as with this issue.

It seems that 'slippery slope' argument that liberals scoff at has come back to bite them here.

[mister_v]

Hopefully it doesn't happen in my lifetime.

Just goes to show you what happens when you leave liberals in charge. Though such a statement sounds elitist and demeaning, I do not mean it like that. I'll give you that liberals have big hearts and often mean well when they do what they do. But IMO they often proceed just for the sake of proceeding and the do not consider long term effect such as with this issue.

It seems that 'slippery slope' argument that liberals scoff at has come back to bite them here.

Don't bother with Tsi, the man is the native version of a white supremacist. Let him toil in his pig sty by himself.

[Okwaho]

Hopefully it doesn't happen in my lifetime.

Just goes to show you what happens when you leave liberals in charge. Though such a statement sounds elitist and demeaning, I do not mean it like that. I'll give you that liberals have big hearts and often mean well when they do what they do. But IMO they often proceed just for the sake of proceeding and the do not consider long term effect such as with this issue.

It seems that 'slippery slope' argument that liberals scoff at has come back to bite them here.

Don't bother with Tsi, the man is the native version of a white supremacist. Let him toil in his pig sty by himself.

Wah, wah, wah...when the tables are turned you resort to your old standby racism because you can't win your argument. Want some cheese with your whine?

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

....native version of a white supremacist....

This demonstrates how myopic some people are.....They think that we can't have our own sense of national pride (not supremecy) but must be copying some sort of "white culture" (which doesn't exist BTW) to assert our distinction.

I am hardly a "native supremacist". Politically, I am a humanist. However, I can see why you would fear our assertion of our place in society as it erodes the authority "white' supremacists" like you have held in the mainstream for far too long. Unless you haven't noticed, the majority of people in major cities (and these are the guys and gals who run your government and big businesses) are brown people - the majority of whom are not only non-caucasian but who are also non-christians. I know this scares the pants off of you Mister v since as a minority in those places you stand not to be heard.

It is the fear of the myopic racists that all the ill they have visited upon others in the name of apartheid and racial obstruction will be returned. I certainly understand your fears Mister v and will gladly elevate them should you continue to insist we are out to get you!......I mean if we are going to be labelled as violent antagonists them we might as well play the part for your benefit, right?

O:nen

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I see the beat goes on in this debate. I fail to see the logic of denying Canadian sovereignty and reject the authority of Canadian Parliment while utilizing that same system as a means of acquiring title to something not recognized in law.

I would truely love to see the claimed agreement in principle that seems to be the main source of grief within this verbal contest. I do not believe that it exists actually, I am willing to be enlightened though, so perhaps the natives can support their arguement by proving their words.

[Live From China]

I see the beat goes on in this debate. I fail to see the logic of denying Canadian sovereignty and reject the authority of Canadian Parliment while utilizing that same system as a means of acquiring title to something not recognized in law.

Well, said Mr. Fortin! I asked this same question (at least, in one of the native-issues threads) as did FTA Lawyer. Guess what? We are still waiting for an answer. And I too would love to see this hallowed agreement.

[mister_v]

....native version of a white supremacist....

This demonstrates how myopic some people are.....They think that we can't have our own sense of national pride (not supremecy) but must be copying some sort of "white culture" (which doesn't exist BTW) to assert our distinction.

I am hardly a "native supremacist". Politically, I am a humanist. However, I can see why you would fear our assertion of our place in society as it erodes the authority "white' supremacists" like you have held in the mainstream for far too long. Unless you haven't noticed, the majority of people in major cities (and these are the guys and gals who run your government and big businesses) are brown people - the majority of whom are not only non-caucasian but who are also non-christians. I know this scares the pants off of you Mister v since as a minority in those places you stand not to be heard.

It is the fear of the myopic racists that all the ill they have visited upon others in the name of apartheid and racial obstruction will be returned. I certainly understand your fears Mister v and will gladly elevate them should you continue to insist we are out to get you!......I mean if we are going to be labelled as violent antagonists them we might as well play the part for your benefit, right?

O:nen

Nice try at the spin. You are indeed the native version of a white supremacist. Those "brown" people you speak of are honest, hardworking Canadians who are welcomed with open arms. Whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, atheist, or if they worship Darth Vadar, they are all welcomed into this land and can still maintain their beliefs. Their children will become natives of this land, as native as I, you and your offspring are. Nothing to fear there, we are all proud Canadian citizens of a kaleidoscope of colours and it is a joy and privilege to be apart of it. I seek to preserve that because it is a good thing.

You, on the other hand, want to create some Six Nations fiefdom, irrespective of what was properly given up by the Six Nations in the past, where the non-native inhabitants either pay you to be allowed to be there or get kicked out (P.S. those non-native inhabitants include the "brown" people). You don't seek a place in Canadian society, you deny the very existence of that society. That is what makes you a native supremacist.

"Apartheid". "Racial obstruction". Such lofty words Tsi.

The thing about people like yourself is you're always looking into the past, obsessed with it really. Those types tend to get left behind by humanity's relentless forward march. You either go with the flow, adapt to the times and join that march, or you get brushed aside and slowly go the way of the square wheel. You have already doomed yourself with your mindset, but for the sake of future generations of aboriginals, don't brainwash them too.

[Okwaho]

....native version of a white supremacist....

This demonstrates how myopic some people are.....They think that we can't have our own sense of national pride (not supremecy) but must be copying some sort of "white culture" (which doesn't exist BTW) to assert our distinction.

I am hardly a "native supremacist". Politically, I am a humanist. However, I can see why you would fear our assertion of our place in society as it erodes the authority "white' supremacists" like you have held in the mainstream for far too long. Unless you haven't noticed, the majority of people in major cities (and these are the guys and gals who run your government and big businesses) are brown people - the majority of whom are not only non-caucasian but who are also non-christians. I know this scares the pants off of you Mister v since as a minority in those places you stand not to be heard.

It is the fear of the myopic racists that all the ill they have visited upon others in the name of apartheid and racial obstruction will be returned. I certainly understand your fears Mister v and will gladly elevate them should you continue to insist we are out to get you!......I mean if we are going to be labelled as violent antagonists them we might as well play the part for your benefit, right?

O:nen

Nice try at the spin. You are indeed the native version of a white supremacist. Those "brown" people you speak of are honest, hardworking Canadians who are welcomed with open arms. Whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, atheist, or if they worship Darth Vadar, they are all welcomed into this land and can still maintain their beliefs. Their children will become natives of this land, as native as I, you and your offspring are. Nothing to fear there, we are all proud Canadian citizens of a kaleidoscope of colours and it is a joy and privilege to be apart of it. I seek to preserve that because it is a good thing.

You, on the other hand, want to create some Six Nations fiefdom, irrespective of what was properly given up by the Six Nations in the past, where the non-native inhabitants either pay you to be allowed to be there or get kicked out (P.S. those non-native inhabitants include the "brown" people). You don't seek a place in Canadian society, you deny the very existence of that society. That is what makes you a native supremacist.

"Apartheid". "Racial obstruction". Such lofty words Tsi.

The thing about people like yourself is you're always looking into the past, obsessed with it really. Those types tend to get left behind by humanity's relentless forward march. You either go with the flow, adapt to the times and join that march, or you get brushed aside and slowly go the way of the square wheel. You have already doomed yourself with your mindset, but for the sake of future generations of aboriginals, don't brainwash them too.

You're afraid of the past because the future has caught up with it. Now the time has come to pay the piper and you can't deal with that fact. It's O.K. for you to say to us forget about all of the past injustices and move on. Yet you fear the fact that we wish to hold accountable the injustice and it terrifies you doesn't it.

It's alright for us to forget our sacrifices to convenience you, but whoa to the redman who dare suggest you make sacrifices to make right all the wrongs! You feel that we should remain silent in the presence of our "Great White Masters" for they know what is best for us lowly red folk. Conform all ye red devils be ye like us! Ye shall be free and equal among us! Otherwise ye shall be branded as RACISTS to the world, for we fear you and must propagate the deceptions of our fore fathers to conceal their lies and injustices lest the whole world should know and turn against us on account of our guilt.

Me thinks thou protests RACISM too much!!!!

[watching&waiting]

I would be all for settling the land claims as long as the government takes into consideration all the money they have given to the Native groups already. Of course once this is settled they will have to live and pay their way just like everyone else does. The free ride should end and they should be equal to all other citizens, tax wise and other ways as well.

I am sick and tired of this same debate going on and it never really goes any where. Either settle it willingly or call in the army and settle it forcefully. Just do one or the other quickly before tempers go worse then where mine is going on this.

[Okwaho]

I would be all for settling the land claims as long as the government takes into consideration all the money they have given to the Native groups already. Of course once this is settled they will have to live and pay their way just like everyone else does. The free ride should end and they should be equal to all other citizens, tax wise and other ways as well.

I am sick and tired of this same debate going on and it never really goes any where. Either settle it willingly or call in the army and settle it forcefully. Just do one or the other quickly before tempers go worse then where mine is going on this.

Get use to it! We don't have to do anything Canadians do. We are sovereign!!! That's why we don't pay tax to begin with!!!!

[Okwaho]

I would be all for settling the land claims as long as the government takes into consideration all the money they have given to the Native groups already. Of course once this is settled they will have to live and pay their way just like everyone else does. The free ride should end and they should be equal to all other citizens, tax wise and other ways as well.

I am sick and tired of this same debate going on and it never really goes any where. Either settle it willingly or call in the army and settle it forcefully. Just do one or the other quickly before tempers go worse then where mine is going on this.

Is this the equal to all other citizens that you're refering to?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=6300

Democracy at its best! Heck I could have told you how to get your federal government to pay for it by offset and it wouldn't have cost you a dime!

[Hydraboss]

I rarely visit this board anymore mainly due to some of the idiocy. I am seeing it again in this thread, as it seems that there are some posters who are intentionally trying to prod others into losing their cool and writing something that can be brought up again and again. This thread is a constant rehash of the same points over and over. Reading it is like working for the Department of Redundancy Department.

Well here, I'll say what the instigators are looking for:

We (meaning anyone who isn't native) took this land by force. If you don't like it, we'll start again. You take back all the land in Canada, then we'll declare war on you, kick your ass (again) and this time there will be no treaties, no money, no non-taxable status, no status at all for you and your people. Everyone happy now?

Is that what you have been prodding to hear? Now you can call me a racist, a bigot, a tyrant, whatever... Tsi, does this give you enough conversational fodder to work with?

End the land claims altogether. If you live within Canadian borders willingly from birth, then you are Canadian. Period. I personally don't care if you don't want to acknowledge the laws of the land. I also don't care if you don't want to acknowledge the law of gravity. You have to abide by them. If ANYONE, native or non-native murders someone, they go to jail. Try not acknowledging that law and see what happens.

Unhappy that we (meaning anyone who isn't native) took the land by force and don't want to give it back? What about the natives that forcefully took land and people from others? Are you going to pay restitution to those bands/people that were conquered? Are you going to give their land back? I doubt it.

Tsi and others, you intentionally try to be unreasonable and provoke anger from members of MLW, and then you get pissed off when they get do. Have your fun, we are well used to ignoring those who "troll".

Incidentally, we are having fun with you too.

Have a nice day.

[Okwaho]

I rarely visit this board anymore mainly due to some of the idiocy. I am seeing it again in this thread, as it seems that there are some posters who are intentionally trying to prod others into losing their cool and writing something that can be brought up again and again. This thread is a constant rehash of the same points over and over. Reading it is like working for the Department of Redundancy Department.

Well here, I'll say what the instigators are looking for:

We (meaning anyone who isn't native) took this land by force. If you don't like it, we'll start again. You take back all the land in Canada, then we'll declare war on you, kick your ass (again) and this time there will be no treaties, no money, no non-taxable status, no status at all for you and your people. Everyone happy now?

Is that what you have been prodding to hear? Now you can call me a racist, a bigot, a tyrant, whatever... Tsi, does this give you enough conversational fodder to work with?

End the land claims altogether. If you live within Canadian borders willingly from birth, then you are Canadian. Period. I personally don't care if you don't want to acknowledge the laws of the land. I also don't care if you don't want to acknowledge the law of gravity. You have to abide by them. If ANYONE, native or non-native murders someone, they go to jail. Try not acknowledging that law and see what happens.

Unhappy that we (meaning anyone who isn't native) took the land by force and don't want to give it back? What about the natives that forcefully took land and people from others? Are you going to pay restitution to those bands/people that were conquered? Are you going to give their land back? I doubt it.

Tsi and others, you intentionally try to be unreasonable and provoke anger from members of MLW, and then you get pissed off when they get do. Have your fun, we are well used to ignoring those who "troll".

Incidentally, we are having fun with you too.

Have a nice day.

"This thread is a constant rehash of the same points over and over." My thoughts exactly! Your historical knowledge is somewhat limited or intenionally suppressed by your opinion! None of our Nations were ever conquered nor was our land taken by force! Our land was taken by deception and we are still sovereign unto ourselves which is why among other things we don't pay your tax and still make treaties with your government.

[Hydraboss]

Okwaho, and what of the nations (native) that conquered each other? You say you are sovereign, but only by a matter of degrees. You say that the white people never took your land by force. Will you also say that no native has taken another native or land by force? Will you seek restitution on behalf of the conquered?

So it is I who have poor understanding. Granted (because it's not worth arguing). But in your all-knowing mind, what is different between the caucasion people taking "your" land by deception, and other cultures taking land by deception or force? Example, the English conquered the Saxons...should they give the land back? The Turkish took many lands...should they give the land back? The Romans, the Russians, the Hungarians, the Chinese...the list goes on and on. How far back should this reach? The neanderthal's? Or just as far as it suits you? Were you the first on the land? Are you sure? What about the Swedish-decent skeleton that outdates your people by over 500 years? Should you turn the land over to Inga and her friends?

When does the timeline of entitlement end? What would you do if the land actually belongs to the Swedish? Would that not make ALL treaties null and void? After all, the land would never have been yours to give/sell/be stolen/whatever.

Incidentally, if the laws of Canada do not apply to native people, why are there natives in jail? Why haven't all the bands simply refused to let the police apprehend native criminals? After all, they aren't really criminals if they only broke laws that don't exist to you. Has your nation sought to extradite these innocents to your lands, Canada be damned? If it's not just about the money, why are your people captive? You wouldn't be selling them out would you?

Overall, what is the purpose of these threads? To encourage anger-motivated racial comments? Perhaps not you in particular, but I read at least one member on this thread that is only trying to irk people. If not trolling, then why?

[Okwaho]

Okwaho, and what of the nations (native) that conquered each other? You say you are sovereign, but only by a matter of degrees. You say that the white people never took your land by force. Will you also say that no native has taken another native or land by force? Will you seek restitution on behalf of the conquered?

I can't speak for other nations but as for the Rotinonshonni (Six Nations) we have in our Kaianerenkowa (Great Law of Peace) the provisions and conditions of going to war. Among those conditions is one that states if an offending nation will not accept the Great Peace than they must suffer the cosequences of attacking us. Those cosequences include conquest or elimination. I've seen these elements of the Great Law of Peace manipulated over and over by people on this site that don't understand it. For example the Huron and Alkonquin allies of the French during the early days of the Fur Trade were incited by the French to attack us. Champlain himself killed two of our chiefs in 1609 during our first introduction to a firearm. His actions brought the full wrath of the Five Nations Confederacy upon them to the extent of the almost total destruction of the Hurons in the latter years. The Huron chose to disengage and accept the Great Law of Peace to which as a result they survive today. All of the nations posessed the knowledge of the Great Law of Peace and the repercussions in breaking it. Accepting the Great Law of Peace does not mean following it as a member of the Confederacy adhering it its contents it simply means do not attack us! That is the very foundation of the Two Row and Silver Covanent Chain with the European Nations. We would allow them to live side by side with us although they have different laws, culture and governments as long as they accept the Great Law Peace. To this day we have never broken that peace. The Crown on the other hand has after repeated objections from us throughout the centuries. As your allies we are still trying to find a peaceful means to right all of the injustices over the centuries.

We have never been conquered and have never given away our sovereignty. Sovereignty cannot be "Legally Legislated" away under a unilateral act. We have always held the belief that Crown honour and integrity would prevail and they would honour our agreements.

So it is I who have poor understanding. Granted (because it's not worth arguing). But in your all-knowing mind, what is different between the caucasion people taking "your" land by deception, and other cultures taking land by deception or force? Example, the English conquered the Saxons...should they give the land back? The Turkish took many lands...should they give the land back? The Romans, the Russians, the Hungarians, the Chinese...the list goes on and on. How far back should this reach? The neanderthal's? Or just as far as it suits you? Were you the first on the land? Are you sure? What about the Swedish-decent skeleton that outdates your people by over 500 years? Should you turn the land over the Inga and her friends?

The questions you pose to me of other nations will have to be asked of them. I can only speak for us and the agreements we have with foreign nations.

You seem to have afixation on the word conquer. Again we were not conquered. We have agreements between our nations that have been recognized and affirmed within your constitution. If you are swindled out of your home and life savings by a business associate without your knowledge or consent by means of forging your signature does that make you a conqured person? Of course not! It means that your business associate not only broke your law but he broke your trust as well. You can be damn sure you'll be holding them accountable!

When does the timeline of entitlement end? What would you do if the land actually belongs to the Swedish? Would that not make ALL treaties null and void? After all, the land would never have been yours to give/sell/be stolen/whatever.

That's for us and the Crown to decide. The city of Brantford for example holds a 999 year lease with us and as of 1989 owed us $250 billion. Your next questions are not only irrelevant but perverse as we all know different don't we?

Incidentally, if the laws of Canada do not apply to native people, why are there natives in jail? Why haven't all the bands simply refused to let the police apprehend native criminals? After all, they aren't really criminals if they only broke laws that don't exist to you. Has your nation sought to extradite these innocents to your lands, Canada be damned? If it's not just about the money, why are your people captive? You wouldn't be selling them out would you?

Canadian law does not apply within Rotinonshonni territory anymore than it would apply in U.S. territory.

Overall, what is the purpose of these threads? To encourage anger-motivated racial comments? Perhaps not you in particular, but I read at least one member on this thread that is only trying to irk people. If not trolling, then why?

Perhaps you can tell me. I thought it was a forum to discuss politics etc. I've seen many non-native folks within these threads trolling as well. Most of them change lures when they can't get any bites.

As far as other members on threads trying to irk people that's their prerogative. I've seen it on the non-native side as well, but we just have to live with that don't we?

[Riverwind]

The city of Brantford for example holds a 999 year lease with us and as of 1989 owed us $250 billion.

The gov't contends that the land that was originally leased was surrenderred in 1841. So the City of Brantford owes Six Nations nothing unless Six Nations can show in Canadian courts that the surrender in 1841 was invalid for some reason.

[Okwaho]

The city of Brantford for example holds a 999 year lease with us and as of 1989 owed us $250 billion.

The gov't contends that the land that was originally leased was surrenderred in 1841. So the City of Brantford owes Six Nations nothing unless Six Nations can show in Canadian courts that the surrender in 1841 was invalid for some reason.

Why don't you ask the mayor of Brantford instead of making such rediculous comments!

Here's your so called 1841 surrender! It would seem that your government is a little confused or maybe they're lying to you!!! http://www.ontarioplaques.com/Plaque_Brantford25.html

Note: "Increasingly European settlers encroached on Six Nations' lands. In 1841 the government moved the Grand River Iroquois to a section of their land south of the river." Do you see the words ceded or surrendered on this government plaque? It says encroachment. Encroaching means to intrude on other's territory.

Notice: "Allies of the British during the American War of Independence, the Six Nations Iroquois received extensive lands along the Grand River in 1784."

[Live From China]

That was over 160 years ago! You weren't even alive then. Let it go, move on.

[mister_v]

That was over 160 years ago! You weren't even alive then. Let it go, move on.

If only it were so easy. Some people thrive on trying to row against the current. Deep down they know they don't have a snowball's chance in Hades but, to themselves, it validates their existence.