U.S. support for Israel

[Black Dog]

That said, Black Dog continues to spell out a myth that the West Bank is illegally occupied. Again he ignores history and fact. The fact is the West Bank was never defined as belonging to what is today Jordan. In 1948 Jordan seized it by war. So it was de facto established as Jordan's and not Palestine's. So to say the West Bank is Palestine is complete and utter fiction and the kind of fiction promulgated by people who deliberately choose to look at the history of the borders in the Middle East without looking at their proper historic origins, then colonial origins and how international law defines them.

Under the UN partition plan that created Israel, what is now the West Bank was designated as an Arab region. Yes, Jordan annexed it in 1948 and Israel captured it in 1967. That's the historic record. However, Israel has never attempted to formally claim ownership over the area, and it is not considered to be part of any state. The current position of the Palestinian Authority as well as Israel is that some portion of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip should form the basis of a future Palestinian state. That is a recognition of the de facto, if not de jure, existence of the nation of Palestine. Arguing that "there was no such thing as Palestine" is silly when you consider that, until about 60 years ago, there was no nation called "Israel".

e fact is the West Bank belongs to no one at the moment and like the Gaza Strip is proposed as the place Palestine will be unless of course you are with Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, Syria, Black Dog, Fig Leaf, etc., and believe Israel as a nation should not exist at all and we should simply ship all the Jewish Israeli's to Mel Gibson's house and let the Muslims take it all and turn it into a fundamerntalist Muslim state like Iran and they can wipe out thje Druze and Christians in Israel and then we can let the Sunnis and Shiites duke it out.

Rue: I've told you many times to refrain from your personal attacks. You don't get it and I hope the moderators deal with you accordingly.

[Rue]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

You do realize that Israel gave up the west bank and the entire are it had in Lebanon only to be attacked over and over and over again.

Our motivation isn’t “what we get out of supporting Israel”. It is that we are loyal to our friends and to those who are attacked by terrorist gangs (unlike most of Europe and unfortunately liberal Canadians).

You mean they gave up what they illegaly occupied in the first place right??

Your claim it was illegally occuped by Israel is completely and utterly wrong because you have not taken the time to understand the origins of the borders.

The West Bank once and for all belongs to no one. It was illegally seized by Jordan in 1948, then taken over in 1967 by Israel but technically it belongs to neither. It is a no man's land which is proposed to be part o a Palestinian nation but it no longer belongs to Jordan then it does Israel and no Palestine does not yet exist as much as this poster or others would like to pretend it exists. It has yet to be defined.

More to the point, long before the French and British artificially created the borders of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq, it was part of the Ottoman Empire and prior to that other empires and far earlier before that known in the Bible as Judea and Somaria. You can not look at this area of the world in isolation or from the ignorant perspective of thinking it existed prior to 1948.

Palestine did not exist before 1948. It was simply a Greek name given for an undefined area between Egypt and what is now Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

To this day any of the borders you see including the borders imposed by European powers are not fully defined.l The Shebba farm area that Black Dog likes to refer to as being Lebanon's like the West Bank and Gaza, have NEVER been defined as borders under international law.

You can spin this all you want based on ignorance of the origins of these borders but it can't change the facts. The fact is the West Bank is a land disputed by both Jews and Muslims, and between Palestinians and Jordan and it has yet to be defined. So this continued misrepresentation that Israel illegally occupied it is b.s.

The same people that say Israel acted illegally want to conveniently forget how it was used as a base to launch terrorist attacks against both Israel and Jordan and was precisely the reason there was a Black Sabbath uprising which saw King Hussen and his Beduin army fight a ruthless adn bloody war with the PLO for control of the West Bank and the Jordanians expelled Arafat from the West Bank NOT Israel as much as Black Dog ignores this fact.

[Rue]

Israel gave up the West Bank? I'm sure that's news to all the Israelis still there, as well as the Palestinians who contest their prescence.

A link.

A map.

Again a false statement directly as a result of someone speaking about a region he has never travelled to but talks about as if he is an authority on. Israel no more occupies the West Bank then Jordan does.

Borders to exist to define a sovereign state must be defined by a constitution and form part of a sovereign state recognized by the UN and the world.

The West Bank as a state has yet to be defined so it can't be occupied. It is certainly disputed. It is a region with residents disputing who should have sovereignty over it and in this case the dispute is between Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and a proposed Palestinian state represented by Abbas who has no legal standing to represent Palestinians. Hamas and Hezbollah do not see the West Bank as anything different then the way they see everything else. They do not use Western borders in their concepts. They simply want a Muslim kingdom with no Westerners or Jews in it - their concept of defining borders is not like yours and mine. In their world, there is no border, the Muslim kingdom simply flows from Morrocco to Pakistan to the Phillippines, Indonesia and Europe and Asia.

[Black Dog]

Israel no more occupies the West Bank then Jordan does.

Oh? I guess those 230,000 settlers are figments of the imagination.

Black Dog are you being deliberately provocative or are you that oblivious to what Hezbollah is. Hezbollah is not a political movement you negotiate with. Read their charter. Their charter states they intend to kill every Jew they can get their hands on. This is not a group that is freeing Lebanon and it never was. It has used the pretense of being liberators of Lebanon and that worked when Israel was in Lebanon but the fact is Israel has not been in Lebanon for years and is only there now trying to stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel.

And what's your point? Show me where I have endorsed Hizbullah or its goals. Cut on the manichean dualism!

This is not about defending Lebanon as much as you would like to pretend it is-this is about Hezbollah dedicated to destroying Israel. A group whose charter is to kill Jews world wide and wipe out Israel is not a group interested in negotiating. Once and for all Black Dog either learn who Hezbollah is, what they stand for and how they operate and stop making such naive statements such as Israel should negotiate with them. You do not negotiate with terrorists and you certainly do not negotiate with terrorists that say under no circumstance will they recognize your right to exist.

I don't know where I've said Israel should negotiate with Hizbullah. Maybe I did somewhere, but it doesn't ring any bells. I did however specifically state that Israel should negotiate with the government of Lebanon and the duly elected representatives of the Palestinian Authority.

Now as for you reporting me to the moderator I wish I could report you to someone and hold you accountable for your comments.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the "ignore" feature. Believe me, its made my life easier.

For the rest of the posters who actually care, Black Dog's statement that Israel has refused to negotiate or give back land including the disputed Shebba Farms region is patently false. Anyone who bothers to read will understand Israel would give it back in a second if it remained demilitarized. .

Saying Israel would do it in a second does not disprove my statement. Has Israel offered to negotiate a resolution to the Sheeba Farms dispute or not? Israel certainly does not recognize Lebanon's claim and contends taht the subject should be negotiated with Syria, if and when peace talks are resumed. Lebanon, however, supported by Syria, claims the area is an integral part of South Lebanon, and should have been included when Israel withdrew from Lebanon. So that's that.

The UN has been unable to keep Lebanon free of Hezbollah and its weapons and that is the sole reason Israel is now involved in a defensive response and that is what it is as much as Black Dog or others try to isolate it and say it is an over-reaction to one single kidnapping. It is not. It is a response to a continuous non stop series of terrorist attacks.

I've repeatedly stated my broad support of Israel's right to self-defence. The debate is over strategy and whether Israel is capable of eliminating Hizbullah as a regional force and, if not, what its options are.

As well what Black Dog has continued to remain silent on to the point of being intellectually dishonest in my opinion, is in continuing to suggest Israel should negotiate with Hezbollah when Hezbollah is asking that Israel release someone who bashed a 4 year old child's head in with a rock and then took his bran matter and mushed it in his father's face before torturing and defiling the father.

Again, provide a cite for the statements. Given your habit of putting words inmy mouth, I wouldn't be surprised I never said anything of the sort. Now, it's not out of the realm of possibility. Hizbullah is a political organization, like it or not, and thus depends on Lebanese public opinion. That is its vulnerability. I don't see how emotionally charged anecdotes about dead babys further this discussion.

[Rue]

Um...you realize that if Israel stays there, Hizbullah will continue to attack and will continue to claim legitimacy for those attacks. If Israel chose to negotiate a settlement, it would undermine Hizbullah's claim that it is fighting for Lebanon (quote from Black Dog)

Black Dog in response to my posts asked where he stated that he said Israel should negotiate with Hezbollah so I have reproduced the above which is a direct quote from him.

Black Dog also claims he is not supporting Hezbollah in his responses and I am engaging in dualism when I suggest that.

I will let posters decide what impression they get from Black Dog's responses as to Israel and Hezbollah in this conflict. My impression is that he is supporting Hezbollah and feels their tactics and approach to the conflict is justified.

I regret any misunderstanding I may have.

I have as of yet seen a post from Black Dog discussing anything critical of Hezbollah or an explanation why he thinks Israel should release Mr. Kuntar. Perhaps he can point out his responses. Maybe I missed them.

[Wilber]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

If you read your history you will find that between prehistoric times and the present day, Palestine has been possessed by the Canaanites, Israelites, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arab Caliphate, Crusaders, Mamluks, Ottomans and British. The fact is, the only time it has ever been a sovereign state was under the Israelites and as todays Israel. At every other time it has been part of someone else's empire. The reality is that Palestine has always been possessed by those strong enough to hold it and throughout its history, every occupant of Palestine has held it illegally according to someone else.

[jdobbin]

If you read your history you will find that between prehistoric times and the present day, Palestine has been possessed by the Canaanites, Israelites, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arab Caliphate, Crusaders, Mamluks, Ottomans and British. The fact is, the only time it has ever been a sovereign state was under the Israelites and as todays Israel. At every other time it has been part of someone else's empire. The reality is that Palestine has always been possessed by those strong enough to hold it and throughout its history, every occupant of Palestine has held it illegally according to someone else.

<heh>I want to hear more about the Mamluks.

[Wilber]

If you read your history you will find that between prehistoric times and the present day, Palestine has been possessed by the Canaanites, Israelites, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arab Caliphate, Crusaders, Mamluks, Ottomans and British. The fact is, the only time it has ever been a sovereign state was under the Israelites and as todays Israel. At every other time it has been part of someone else's empire. The reality is that Palestine has always been possessed by those strong enough to hold it and throughout its history, every occupant of Palestine has held it illegally according to someone else.

<heh>I want to hear more about the Mamluks.

Mamluks

[jdobbin]

Mamluks

Neat. White slaves rule. Interesting times back then.

[Wilber]

Mamluks

Neat. White slaves rule. Interesting times back then.

In the future I'm sure they will say the same about our times.

[Black Dog]

Black Dog in response to my posts asked where he stated that he said Israel should negotiate with Hezbollah so I have reproduced the above which is a direct quote from him.

Could you link to the post? I remember that and I believe, in the context of the thread, I was suggesting Israel negotiate with Lebanon and Syria to resolve the Sheeba Farms dispute, which I believe would undermine Hizbullah. Outside of that context, the quote makes no sense: after all, how could negotiations with Hizbullah undermine Hizbullah?

Black Dog also claims he is not supporting Hezbollah in his responses and I am engaging in dualism when I suggest that.

Yup. I'm trying to take a broad and dispassionate view of the whole conflict, its causes and effects without getting into any emotional rhethoric about good guys and bad guys. I wish others could do the same.

I have as of yet seen a post from Black Dog discussing anything critical of Hezbollah or an explanation why he thinks Israel should release Mr. Kuntar.

I've repeatedly referred to Hizbullah attacks on civilian areas as war crimes. What more do you want? And I've never heard of Samir Kuntar before you brought it up above, so I'm not sure how its relevant.

[Rue]

Black Dog in response to my posts asked where he stated that he said Israel should negotiate with Hezbollah so I have reproduced the above which is a direct quote from him.

Could you link to the post? I remember that and I believe, in the context of the thread, I was suggesting Israel negotiate with Lebanon and Syria to resolve the Sheeba Farms dispute, which I believe would undermine Hizbullah. Outside of that context, the quote makes no sense: after all, how could negotiations with Hizbullah undermine Hizbullah?

Black Dog also claims he is not supporting Hezbollah in his responses and I am engaging in dualism when I suggest that.

Yup. I'm trying to take a broad and dispassionate view of the whole conflict, its causes and effects without getting into any emotional rhethoric about good guys and bad guys. I wish others could do the same.

I have as of yet seen a post from Black Dog discussing anything critical of Hezbollah or an explanation why he thinks Israel should release Mr. Kuntar.

I've repeatedly referred to Hizbullah attacks on civilian areas as war crimes. What more do you want? And I've never heard of Samir Kuntar before you brought it up above, so I'm not sure how its relevant.

Sorry but I find it hard to believe that someone who has taken such care to be unemotional and unbias and and remain totally neutral and accurate never hear of Mr.Kuntar especially since your posts perport to claim you know all about Hezbollah. Sorry I am not buying it. Others can.

[Black Dog]

Sorry but I find it hard to believe that someone who has taken such care to be unemotional and unbias and and remain totally neutral and accurate never hear of Mr.Kuntar especially since your posts perport to claim you know all about Hezbollah. Sorry I am not buying it. Others can.

I never purported to knw everything about Hizbullah. But I've been reading up on the subject a lot of late and your reference to Kuntar was the first I came across. Even now that I know about this character, I don't see why he matters.

[B. Max]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

What is the motivation for putting American money (and increasingly blood) on the line to sustain the illegal occupation and settlement of Palestinian land? Does this make sense?

You do realize that Israel gave up the west bank and the entire are it had in Lebanon only to be attacked over and over and over again.

Our motivation isn’t “what we get out of supporting Israel”. It is that we are loyal to our friends and to those who are attacked by terrorist gangs (unlike most of Europe and unfortunately liberal Canadians).

You mean they gave up what they illegaly occupied in the first place right??

Israel is smaller today than it was around 2500 years ago. How could they be illegally occupying any land since they've already given up land that was originally theirs. The entire problem with Israeli security is that all of the original borders of Israel were not restored in 1948 which allowed for its natural defense. In 1948 the surrounding Arab countries convinced the so called Palestinians to leave Israel, promising them they would destroy the new state of Israel and drive out all of the Jews. At the same time they killed or drove out all the Jews from Arab land. The Arabs failed to defeat the Jews and that is how the refugee camps originated that exist to this day. In 1967 the Arabs again attacked Israel. Israel again defeated the Arabs and Israel kept the land which they had been attacked from. Land that was once part of the original Israel. Israel should never have given back any of the captured land. If you attack from said land and you lose. You should forfeit that land. As they give back the land they are again attacked from it.

[jbg]

The same people that say Israel acted illegally want to conveniently forget how it was used as a base to launch terrorist attacks against both Israel and Jordan and was precisely the reason there was a Black Sabbath uprising which saw King Hussen and his Beduin army fight a ruthless and bloody war with the PLO for control of the West Bank and the Jordanians expelled Arafat from the West Bank NOT Israel as much as Black Dog ignores this fact.

Good post but a few corrections. It was "Black September". Black Sabbath was a rock group popular during that period. Also, Al Fatah was using Jordan proper as a base from which to launch guerrilla attacks (now more appropriately called terrorist attacks) against Israel. The West Bank was at that time, 1970, under Israeli control.

The Jordanians received the brunt of Israel's retalation, since Israel's position was and is that a nation is responsible for improper acts emanating from their territory. Jordan, not enjoying the retaliation, expelled Al Fatah in a ruthless, bloody attack during September 1970, thus the name "Black September".

The expulsion was from Jordan east of the River, not the West Bank.

[jbg]

I'm curious ... we all know that Israel receives substantial support from the United States, but what (other than worldwide hostility) does the US get out of supporting Israel?

I choose to address the first half, rather than the loaded and rhetorical questions in the second half.

The British Empire imploded between 1914 and 1945. Prior to 1914, the British Empire maintained a surprising degree of world peace other than, of course, in the charnal house commonly called "Europe". The geographical expanse of Canada and Australia, the increasing power of an increasingly non-hostile, and ultimately aligned United States, together with colonization of the Indian Subcontinent, large parts of Africa, and outposts in China threw a wet blanket over many regional tensions. In addition, the US defeat of the Barbary Pirates cut down on the predations on Western interests coming from the Muslim world. The post-1945 attempt to grant "independence" to the Third World and regulate tensions through the UN has been a dismal failure.

Thus, Israel serves as a giant forward base in a very dangerous and crucial part of the world. US support of Israel is far cheaper than maintaining bases, and Khobar Tower style housing to stabilize that area.

[Black Dog]

The post-1945 attempt to grant "independence" to the Third World and regulate tensions through the UN has been a dismal failure.

Generally because, in the Middle East in particular, "independance" was usually nominal at best.

Thus, Israel serves as a giant forward base in a very dangerous and crucial part of the world. US support of Israel is far cheaper than maintaining bases, and Khobar Tower style housing to stabilize that area.

If Israel's job is to maintain the stability of the region, then the U.S. should ask for its money back.

[moderateamericain]

I guess my take on this whole thing is, Who deserves Israel/palestine? The original Herbew people who occupied it are not the same people that live there today, the Arabs controlled it for over a thousand years. And prior to that it was under Roman, Mongal, turk, and persian control. So who does it really belong 2? When israel became a country in 1949 it was under attack the very next day. The Israelis have been fighting not for oil or some fertile piece of land, but for their very exsistance. Has there ever been a more persecuted people than the jews? The russians slaughtered millions, the germans slaughtered millions, the egyptians slaughtered millions, and im willing to be based on Hizzbalah's charter that they would love to do the same thing. As far as contested territory i remind you to the victor go the spoils of war. England took far more territory in its time in conquest then Israel ever has taken. Do i dislike Israel, absolutely not. Its a country that has fought for its survival from day 1. It has the loyalty of its people, and the recgonition of most of the world as an independant state. I put it to you this way, if Mexico started lobbing rockets at texas, would you expect us to sit their and take it?

[GostHacked]

moderateamerican

I put it to you this way, if Mexico started lobbing rockets at texas, would you expect us to sit their and take it?

They don't need rockets, just a massive influx of Mexicans.