Vigilante justice

[jbg]

Ah, kind of like the refreshing lynch mob that abducted a native youth in B.C. for a murder in Washington state for something he didn't do. I like when no one asks any questions first.

I wonder how they would have felt if a firefighter died fighting the fire.

If the authorities won't impose justice, you can be sure eventually the people will.

[Charles Anthony]

No. My view is that if the police don't maintain order, someone will.

Maintain order?? I do not think anybody got order in this incident.

And someone innocent could die.

So who do you charge then? Or do the do-gooders get a pass because they were fighting crime?

In my opinion, the do-gooders did get a free pass.

It's tough dobbin... I'm normally pretty strongly against vigilantism, but if your neighbours were crack dealers and selling to kids on your street, and the police refused to act... would you be able to just say, 'oh well, I'll just live with it?"

Why the contradiction??

If the authorities won't impose justice, you can be sure eventually the people will.

Is justice really an appropriate word for all of these instances? I do not think so.

In Grand Manan, the police claim to have been in the middle of a secretive sting operation.

On the surface, things may seem more civilized for the police to take care of justice. However, I think the best lesson to be learned from this is that if we are to have state-run policing, those police should be a little more in tune with the people they serve and protect.

In Ghana, villagers ostracize people suspected of witch-craft:

Witch hunt

When crops fail or children die of mysterious illnesses, the villagers of northern Ghana usually suspect that a witch is to blame.

The accusation is most likely to come from within a family - the same feeling that binds a village together in adversity can be turned ruthlessly against a scapegoat, and it takes little more than suspicion for a witch to face death at the hands of a lynch mob.

Fearing for their lives, hundreds of elderly women in northern Ghana have banded together for protection in sanctuaries known as "witch camps". They live in clusters of sun-baked huts, where lizards scuttle under the eaves and pumpkin vines grow over the thatched roofs.

Guardian.co.uk

Also, people who fear an impending accusation or violent reprisal will flee with their family to these camps -- even if they are innocent. They have become a safe-haven for out-casts. With enough time, such justice based on superstitions can only see the population of the witch-camps outnumber the original villagers. How will they mete out justice then? How do they mete out justice in the witch-camps when crops fail?

Maybe the witch-camps will become a little more open-minded than their original villagers?

[Black Dog]

I too am wondering where all the talk of "liberal judges" and "slaps-on-the-wrist" have gone. I guess if you want to con a conservayive into supporting your illegal action, just tell them the guy your obed or beat up was a...bad guy. Yeah. A bad guy.

I wonder, too, if there's any substance to the idea that the cops "did nothing" about the alleged crack dealers.

But I guess "The Simpsons" was as prescient as always with the line "There's no justice like angry mob justice."

[jefferiah]

I am from NB--not near Grand Manan--but I remember this happening. I don't support vigilante justice, but I think the people in that area were pretty pissed off and the law had failed them. Grand Manan is small and intimate. People know each other. People see their friends and family being messed up and spending their money on this crap.... And this fellow who sells it--well the legal system puts him right back where he needs to be to do more business. If the system cant enforce the law who will?

[jefferiah]

Does anyone remember a case from a few years ago? I believe it was in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia. And elderly man was arrested for threatening teenagers with a baseball bat. The teens had been throwing rocks at his house and shouting at him---on more than one occasion I think. So he comes out with a bat. And he ended up being charged while no action was brought against the teenagers.

[Black Dog]

I am from NB--not near Grand Manan--but I remember this happening. I don't support vigilante justice, but I think the people in that area were pretty pissed off and the law had failed them. Grand Manan is small and intimate. People know each other. People see their friends and family being messed up and spending their money on this crap.... And this fellow who sells it--well the legal system puts him right back where he needs to be to do more business. If the system cant enforce the law who will?

Wow, that's a lot of unproven assumptions in one small post, starting with the assumption that there was somebody dealing crack, moving on to the one that the police were doing nothing and concluding with the one that the weak legal system was easy on the alleged drug dealers.

[jefferiah]

I never said anything about crack. I said crap. When you live in a small community people know who is dealing. Its not rocket science.

[Black Dog]

I never said anything about crack. I said crap.

And?

When you live in a small community people know who is dealing. Its not rocket science.

Perhaps. But your prior post is a good example of how rumours start and spread. We went from suspected crack house to a repeat offender who got off easy who the local police weren't doing anything about. Which is all speculation. And in a small town, speculation can turn to rumour and rumor to fact in the time it takes to order another round.

[jefferiah]

I live in a small community. These people are in and out all the time and back in business. Always the same ones. Everyone knows. A little jail time is a business expense and nothing more.

[jefferiah]

I never said anything about crack. I said crap.

And?

When you live in a small community people know who is dealing. Its not rocket science.

Perhaps. But your prior post is a good example of how rumours start and spread. We went from suspected crack house to a repeat offender who got off easy who the local police weren't doing anything about. Which is all speculation. And in a small town, speculation can turn to rumour and rumor to fact in the time it takes to order another round.

Believe me Black Dog. This is not the Salem witch trials. In Grand Manan the people know who is dealing. They are not that stupid. They wont go burn down a house if they heard a rumour.

[Charles Anthony]

In Grand Manan the people know who is dealing. They are not that stupid. They wont go burn down a house if they heard a rumour.

I do not trust the judgment of the Grand Manan villagers.

Would YOU trust the judgment of adults who let their children smoke crack???? I would not.

Would YOU trust the judgment of adults who do not have the discipline to control their own children??? I would not.

Somehow, I do not think the adults of crack-smoking children should be meting out justice.

Here is a different aspect of this situation which is disturbing: people and children throughout the whole entire world can get illicit drugs. Hell, I can walk down my street and get drugs. If our kids buy and consume illicit it is our own fault.

Are we going to start blaming the car dealers every time there is a car crash???

Well that depends, in my view a vigilante is out for justice, and a lynch mob just caters to themselves. your native boy is what i call an example of a lynch mob and their racist policies which is WRONG, the crack house is what i call justice, the whole town saw a problem and solved it. It is a fine line and if i can quote a line from the movie Spiderman "...with great power comes great responsibility"

It is not justice. It is brute violence -- plain and simple.

The actions of these vigilantes is the same as a lynch mob.

However, do not forget: this happened not only under the watch of a state police force but as a result of the state police force.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

It is not justice. It is brute violence -- plain and simple.

The actions of these vigilantes is the same as a lynch mob.

However, do not forget: this happened not only under the watch of a state police force but as a result of the state police force.

It would be a daily occurence if anarchy reigned.

If our kids buy and consume illicit it is our own fault.

Partly, partly the dealer's fault, and mostly the kid's fault.Don't forget, crack dealers are basically predators, they know that if they can get someone to try it, they can get them hooked, and ensure more sales.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

starting with the assumption that there was somebody dealing crack, moving on to the one that the police were doing nothing and concluding with the one that the weak legal system was easy on the alleged drug dealers.

I see crack dealing and use everyday in front of my business. I also see all the crime associated with the business. I have given up calling the police, I got tired of them not coming, and hearing the dispatcher ask "What do you want us to do, move them to another neighbourhood?" The police have told me on several occasions, that even if they bust dealers, they are usually back on the street before they finish their paperwork. So they have simply decided to put their efforts elsewhere.

So have I, and my wife, myself and a couple of friends have all signed up for training in the Guardian Angels. It may not even make a difference, but for what we see, it seems that taking action ourselves is our only hope. (on a side note, the Guardian Angels are not a 'vigilante group', but rather a group of 'concerned citizens' that are willing to spend their own time to 'dare to care', about their community and their city.)

[jefferiah]

I dont think its fair to say these parents let their kids smoke crack. That is crazy. Parents often dont know what their kids are doing. And I am telling you, whether you believe me or not---I dont care. In a place like Grand Manan if someone is dealing they know it. Dealers have customers. There is no anonymity for this sort of thing in a place like this.

[jefferiah]

When I was younger I smoked pot for a while, which I now regret. I grew up in a very rural area. We all knew where these guys lived. Everybody knows everybody. Even if you never did drugs you know someone who does, you know where they get it. It's not like a rumour about "I think Mr. Williams is gay" or something like that. Its well known.

I remember when I was a young punk and I did do drugs. There was one particular dealer my friend would go to. He was always the one to go in. Well....one day we find out this guy got busted. Let's call him Mr. X. Two days later my friend goes to Mr. X's house to buy drugs. No, he was not out this early. But his wife took over sales until he got back. A year later I was no longer doing drugs, but I remember being with this same friend (who I was seeing less and less of) and he went to go get some drugs and Mr. X was dealing again. This happens all the time.

This is only one story. But it happens over and over again. These guys get busted multiple times. Its nothing. They make lots of money. A little slap on the wrist now and again. Society is practically saying....here this is better than a legitimate business.

[jefferiah]

And for the record. No my parents did not let me do drugs. It was not their fault. I did it of my own accord. I cannot even blame the dealer. Yet, these guys should know better. They are making tons of money off dumb punk kids like I was.

[blueblood]

Would YOU trust the judgment of adults who let their children smoke crack???? I would not.

Would YOU trust the judgment of adults who do not have the discipline to control their own children??? I would not.

I'd trust their judgement a lot more than a liberal minded judge from Quebec that's for damn sure, because in this case THEY EXERCISED GOOD JUDGEMENT!!!

[Charles Anthony]

It is not justice. It is brute violence -- plain and simple.

The actions of these vigilantes is the same as a lynch mob.

However, do not forget: this happened not only under the watch of a state police force but as a result of the state police force.

It would be a daily occurence if anarchy reigned.

No, it would not.

If people respected eachother's rights and freedom, nobody could afford to do crime under the watch of state police.

If our kids buy and consume illicit it is our own fault.

Partly, partly the dealer's fault, and mostly the kid's fault.Don't forget, crack dealers are basically predators, they know that if they can get someone to try it, they can get them hooked, and ensure more sales.

I agree that they are ruthless predators. No doubt about it.

However, I believe the problems with people seeking and accepting drugs pre-dates (please accept the pun) their first exposure to the predator. Parenting plays a major role and responsibility -- things that are easier to shed when there is the delusion of a state changing our diapers and picking up after ourselves.

If non-anarchy reigned, this would be a daily occurence:

I see crack dealing and use everyday in front of my business. I also see all the crime associated with the business. I have given up calling the police, I got tired of them not coming, and hearing the dispatcher ask "What do you want us to do, move them to another neighbourhood?" The police have told me on several occasions, that even if they bust dealers, they are usually back on the street before they finish their paperwork. So they have simply decided to put their efforts elsewhere.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

So have I, and my wife, myself and a couple of friends have all signed up for training in the Guardian Angels. It may not even make a difference, but for what we see, it seems that taking action ourselves is our only hope. (on a side note, the Guardian Angels are not a 'vigilante group', but rather a group of 'concerned citizens' that are willing to spend their own time to 'dare to care', about their community and their city.)

I commend you but you are wearing rose-colored glasses.

If you are not a vigilante group, what are you going to do when you come across violent crime? Sit and watch? Call the police?

I would hope that you step in and exercise good judgment to stop violence.

The Guardian Angels are a response to ineffective state policing. They are a peaceful and inevitable step towards anarchy.

I dont think its fair to say these parents let their kids smoke crack. That is crazy. Parents often dont know what their kids are doing.

Yes it is fair. How do you explain the fact that the other kids do NOT smoke crack??

And I am telling you, whether you believe me or not---I dont care. In a place like Grand Manan if someone is dealing they know it. Dealers have customers. There is no anonymity for this sort of thing in a place like this.

Everybody knows everything in Grand Manan -- except the parents. I believe it.

I remember when I was a young punk and I did do drugs.

Did you know any other kids who did NOT do drugs?

And for the record. No my parents did not let me do drugs. It was not their fault. I did it of my own accord. I cannot even blame the dealer.

Your kids will be exposed to drugs and dealers too. When that time comes, do you think YOU will be better prepared than your parents were? I do not know you but I think you probably will.

Yet, these guys should know better. They are making tons of money off dumb punk kids like I was.

I believe parents play a major role in forming the attitudes of their children.

Children develop a sense of understanding actions-consequences from their parents.

I am willing to bet that you have come across at least one child who said "NO" to drugs because that child knew the parents at home would kill him. That is what I mean.

I'd trust their judgement a lot more than a liberal minded judge from Quebec that's for damn sure,

No need for inflamatory bigotry -- there is enough of that already.

because in this case THEY EXERCISED GOOD JUDGEMENT!!!

Unfortunately, those parents were a bit too late in exercising good judgment with raising their children.

They also set a bad example. When these young people in Grand Manan get off the island, they will not be able to survive long if they try to use the same judgment when settling scores.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

If people respected eachother's rights and freedom

Yes, but sadly there is a snowball's chance in hell for that mighty big 'if'.

I commend you but you are wearing rose-colored glasses.

If you are not a vigilante group, what are you going to do when you come across violent crime? Sit and watch? Call the police?

We are undergoing self-defence training now, and along side that will be training in the rule of law pertaining to the rights of citizen's arrest. Yes, calling the police is also an option, really the best one, but if a crime is in progress, a citizen has the right to intervene.

The Guardian Angels are a response to ineffective state policing. They are a peaceful and inevitable step towards anarchy.

I believe that they are a supplement to 'state policing', not a replacement. Further, it is the leniency and bureaucracy of the courts, and not the police themselves, that are the biggest problem. (apart from the crimials, of course)

[Charles Anthony]

If people respected eachother's rights and freedom

Yes, but sadly there is a snowball's chance in hell for that mighty big 'if'.

No, actually it is quite the opposite: your participation in the Guardian Angels is proving my point. Keep it up. One step at a time.

You are taking one step away from the state and one step towards anarchy.

We are undergoing self-defence training now, and along side that will be training in the rule of law pertaining to the rights of citizen's arrest. Yes, calling the police is also an option, really the best one, but if a crime is in progress, a citizen has the right to intervene.

Do not stop. You are taking one small step for man and one giant leap for man-kind, thank you very much.

The Guardian Angels are a response to ineffective state policing. They are a peaceful and inevitable step towards anarchy.

I believe that they are a supplement to 'state policing', not a replacement. Further, it is the leniency and bureaucracy of the courts, and not the police themselves, that are the biggest problem. (apart from the crimials, of course)

Sugar-coat it all you want. You are only kidding yourself.

The bottom line is that you are resorting to a non-state and concrete solution to something which you entrusted to the state. You are a supplier in a market in which the state can not fully provide. Remember, you are a Guardian Angel out of your own free-will -- you can quit any time. You are doing it to protect yourself and your neighbors.

With enough time, you will be asking me for a membership card.

[jefferiah]

Charles you seem to have the idea that kids can have no bad impulses if they have good parents. This is ridiculous. You asked me if I knew other kids who did not use drugs. Of course I did. Why did I do drugs and not other kids? Because I was fascinated by it at the time and that whole ridiculous lie of mind expansion. Some kids do and some kids don't. You make a huge leap and say "some kids have better parents". Why are some parents better than others? I dunno maybe "some parents have better kids". Seriously. My parents were not bad parents who allowed me to smoke pot. This is ridiculous and unfair.

[Charles Anthony]

Charles you seem to have the idea that kids can have no bad impulses if they have good parents. This is ridiculous.

No. That is not what I am saying.

I am not denying that kids will have bad impulses. I am saying that how children act and the decisions children make are MAJORLY influenced by their parents.

Parents are the primary people who present direct consequences to children. Nobody else can punish or teach children consequences except for parents.

You asked me if I knew other kids who did not use drugs. Of course I did. Why did I do drugs and not other kids? Because I was fascinated by it at the time and that whole ridiculous lie of mind expansion. Some kids do and some kids don't.

However, all kids have to face their own parents.

You make a huge leap and say "some kids have better parents".

Yes, I do. Parenting is not an easy job.

Would it make sense to assume that all parents are equal? No.

Why are some parents better than others? I dunno maybe "some parents have better kids".

I believe that children are mainly a product of their upbrining.

Seriously. My parents were not bad parents who allowed me to smoke pot. This is ridiculous and unfair.

Would it be fair to ask if your parents knew you smoked pot?

If we are to make strides in the concept of justice, it has to start with the family.

[jefferiah]

No they didnt know.

[Black Dog]

Believe me Black Dog. This is not the Salem witch trials. In Grand Manan the people know who is dealing. They are not that stupid. They wont go burn down a house if they heard a rumour.

That's the difference between us: I always assume people are stupid and go from there. Burning down a house and pelting the firefighters with rocks are not hallmarks of a Mensa meeting.

I see crack dealing and use everyday in front of my business. I also see all the crime associated with the business. I have given up calling the police, I got tired of them not coming, and hearing the dispatcher ask "What do you want us to do, move them to another neighbourhood?" The police have told me on several occasions, that even if they bust dealers, they are usually back on the street before they finish their paperwork. So they have simply decided to put their efforts elsewhere.

We're not talking about street dealers, though: we're talking about a "crack house" in a very small community.

This is only one story. But it happens over and over again. These guys get busted multiple times. Its nothing. They make lots of money. A little slap on the wrist now and again. Society is practically saying....here this is better than a legitimate business.

Great. And how do your personal anecdotes transfer over to the incident in Grand Manan?

[jefferiah]

I am only 26 now, but some older friends of mine found out their son was using marijuana. He is 15 or 16. He is not under constant supervision. Contrary to what you may believe you can't always see the signs, you can't always tell if someone is high. So you dont always find out right away. Anyways these parents began to be a little suspicious of their son shortly before catching him. A few days later their son made a phone call to one of his friends to talk about getting some stuff. The mother of the friend picked up the phone to make a call not realizing her son was on the phone. And she overheard enough to make her listen some more. And after that she called the parents of the first boy. Do you understand? I know these people. They are not perfect parents Charles, but they are pretty good parents. I am pretty young so its not so long ago that I was a kid and I have a pretty good idea about this. Alot of the kids with great parents do drugs. Alot of kids with terrible parents end up being very responsible because they dont want to be like them.

Anyways, as for the son of my friends. He and his friends could have been using for a month or more. Who knows? But during this time someone was providing drugs to these kids. Like I said its not so long ago that I was one of those kids. And it never occured to me until recently how ridiculous it was that these dealers we knew were in and out all the time. I think I told the story of a fellow who's wife sold for him from the same house right after he was arrested. And he resumed dealing when he was released not long after. Business as usual. The law is not intimidating these people when they do this.