Afghanistan

[jdobbin]

Another awful day in Afghanistan. Two U.S. soldiers killed, many Afghan police.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18513154/

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan soldier shot and killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded two more outside a top-security prison near Kabul Sunday, a U.S. military spokesman said.

The gunman was shot dead by other Afghan troops at Pul-e-Charkhi prison, some 20 miles east of Kabul, said Maj. Sheldon Smith, a spokesman for Combined Security Transition Command, a body that trains and mentors Afghan security forces.

The Americans were providing external security for the prison when they were shot, Smith said. U.S. and Afghan authorities opened investigations into the shooting and were trying to determine the motive for the attack, he said.

This comes on the same day that the Sun newspaper showed 48% of Canadians believe the mission has not been well manged under the Tories.

[normanchateau]

Another awful day in Afghanistan. Two U.S. soldiers killed, many Afghan police.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18513154/

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan soldier shot and killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded two more outside a top-security prison near Kabul Sunday, a U.S. military spokesman said.

The gunman was shot dead by other Afghan troops at Pul-e-Charkhi prison, some 20 miles east of Kabul, said Maj. Sheldon Smith, a spokesman for Combined Security Transition Command, a body that trains and mentors Afghan security forces.

The Americans were providing external security for the prison when they were shot, Smith said. U.S. and Afghan authorities opened investigations into the shooting and were trying to determine the motive for the attack, he said.

This comes on the same day that the Sun newspaper showed 48% of Canadians believe the mission has not been well manged under the Tories.

Harper appointed George O'Connor, a former lobbyist for the defence industry, as Minister of Defence. What was he thinking when he appointed this incompetent who even Conservatives acknowledge has not done a good job? Now Harper's only defence for keeping O'Connor is that it would play into the hands of the Taliban.

Sounds remarkably reminiscent of Bush's defence of Rumsfeld before he sacked him. At least Bush eventually had the balls to fire Rumsfeld.

[normanchateau]

Sun, May 6, 2007

By KATHLEEN HARRIS, NATIONAL BUREAU

OTTAWA -- Nearly half of Canadians think the Conservative government is fumbling the war effort in Afghanistan and a majority want to bring the troops home if the death toll continues to mount.

A new SES Research-Sun Media poll finds 54.6% of Canadians want a withdrawal if casualties climb, compared to 39.3% who see fallen soldiers as an unfortunate but necessary part of the mission.

The difference of opinion is most stark with Conservative voters, who are much more likely than Liberal, NDP, Bloc Quebecois or Green supporters to accept blood in the war zone. But Nanos said it's not even a slam-dunk for committed Tories, since nearly 40% would call for a troop withdrawal if casualties continue.

The poll also reveals a whopping 67% of Canadians believe Canada's presence in Afghanistan is actually making our country more vulnerable to a terrorist attack. Prime Minister Stephen Harper has consistently sold the mission as a way to bring democracy to Afghans while keeping the terrorist threat at bay, yet only 17.9% of Canadians believe our military might is cutting Canada's risk of an attack at home.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/200...157643-sun.html

[southerncomfort]

And although not an excuse to torture, it is these Afganis that are the victims here, The taliban have ruled by fear, torture, gruesome killings, for far to long, and they the Afganis people have not forgotten this...and while we sit in our ivory towers and judge them "would be be so morally superior if those things had been done to us and our families".. A quick look into our history says no we are not so differnet.

Good post, this was a letter written to the Toronto Sun recently in answer to a column, don't know if it was printed yet. very well said

The Editor:

Stories like this one burn me up. As a father who has a son in the Armed Forces who recently returned from a tour in Afghanistan; first and foremost I am proud of his contribution to the war on terrorism. Too soon we forget that it is much more comfortable to be clashing with the enemy in Afghanistan than in down town Toronto or elsewhere in Canada.

During his tour in Afghanistan; my wife and I were very concerned for his welfare. But as he strongly put it; he has trained for 20 some years to do this job and he felt confident that he had the support he needed to do the job. One of his biggest concerns while he was there was the media. All the negative reporting which took place and continues to take place. Then of course the bleeding heart politicians have to get into the act. Do you; the media and politicians not think that the Taliban take comfort when all this negative discussion is going on behind our soldier's backs. Do you not encourage more negative reporting so that we will ultimately run with our tails between our legs. Then what; do you really think that these people will confine their activities to the Far East? I think not; maybe we will have another 9/11; maybe in Canada for a change.

I'm old enough to remember the last few years of WW2 when our soldiers took 100 casualties a day in fighting; where were you the media then? Why were you not encouraging the government of the day to pull out of Europe? After all; Hitler was basically doing exactly what the Taliban had been doing "killing off people who he disliked or were in opposition to him". Where was the media when the Korean conflict was taking place? I remember as a teenager reading the Toronto newspapers and finding the daily casualty list

buried in the back sections. Just the names; no big deal about next of kin or bodies being unloaded back in Canada. Why so much media coverage on this particular conflict; is it because your perception of Canadians is that we are a bunch of pacifists who are afraid to get our hands dirty. Are we so self centered that we will stand by and watch millions of people be slaughtered and not care?

My son and his comrades knew exactly what they were doing when they "voluntarily" signed up to be soldiers in the Canadian Armed Forces. They knew that they might have to fight in a war at some time in their careers.

They weren't conscripted! They are well trained and now well equipped to do their work. Their current roblem isn't the enemy in front of them; it's you people; the media and politicians behind that are causing them the greatest concern. Soldiers need good morale to do their job; they also need the full support of the people back home; the morale fails when the support fails.

Just back off; find something else to do and talk about; like all the people who are killed on our highways by drunk driver's everyday of the year; for which you the media and the politicians are very reluctant the write about or solve through legislation. As a former police officer who witnessed drunk driving carnage where up to six people in a single accident were killed; I was always astonished how little interest you the media took; yet when a couple of soldiers are killed in Afghanistan; you pull your hair our and set in on fire.

name withheld for privacy

Cowichan Bay BC

[normanchateau]

May 6, 2007

Edmonton Sun

Prime Minister Stephen Harper is perilously close to becoming the biggest political casualty the Canadian mission in Afghanistan has produced so far.

The Afghan story changes by the minute. The chief soldier in charge of the mission declares that he will not be sidelined by the "theatrics" of questions about prisoner detainees.

Rick Hillier claims his soldiers (but not himself) are "pissed off."

His political bosses are absent from the file. Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay is conveniently touring abroad, happily silenced along with embattled Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor. Stockwell Day briefly emerged as the government point man. That might have been a good thing since he seems to be the only member of the troika that has his story straight some of the time.

Instead, it is the prime minister himself who fields the questions and sends out missives of misinformation. What should have been a one-day wonder has escalated into the government's worst crisis with the prime minister's own hand at the helm.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/Comment/2007/05...157612-sun.html

[runningdog]

I might not agree with all the things I've seen poly post, but please respond with an arguement instead of an ad hominen attack. Thanks

[runningdog]

Argus, life is WAY too short to have the type of anger problem that you seem to have at the moment. And it does nothing to further the cause (or confidence) of those of us who are only slightly to the right of center. Lose the anger and understand that EVERYBODY has a right to an opinion. I bet you'll be a much happier person if you can let go of the hate. Peace, bro.

[Argus]

Argus, life is WAY too short to have the type of anger problem that you seem to have at the moment. And it does nothing to further the cause (or confidence) of those of us who are only slightly to the right of center. Lose the anger and understand that EVERYBODY has a right to an opinion. I bet you'll be a much happier person if you can let go of the hate. Peace, bro.

1 I am not your "bro".

2 I am not responsible for your inability to know the difference between "hate" and contempt.

3 This topic is 44 pages long. I have no way of knowing what you are responding to unless you learn to quote.

4 Your reducing arguments to emotions would tend to argue against your being even "slightly" on the right.

[normanchateau]

Argus, life is WAY too short to have the type of anger problem that you seem to have at the moment. And it does nothing to further the cause (or confidence) of those of us who are only slightly to the right of center. Lose the anger and understand that EVERYBODY has a right to an opinion. I bet you'll be a much happier person if you can let go of the hate. Peace, bro.

2 I am not responsible for your inability to know the difference between "hate" and contempt.

...because contempt can only be directed at those espousing left wing views whereas cognitively less complex emotions like hate are exclusive to left wingers consistently and unfairly attacking those with rational right wing views.

[runningdog]

MEOWWW! Sorry bro, do what you will. You only have yourself to blame when that heart attack comes knocking. BTW, my post was refering to almost ALL of your posts. You have an anger management problem.

[normanchateau]

Runningdog, you joined today so you might not be familiar with the rules of this board. One such rule is no personal attacks and that's how I perceive your baiting of Argus.

[runningdog]

Ya, and in a way it was (although I was serious about the effects to his health). I apologize and will not do it again. Thanks for the heads up.

[normanchateau]

Ya, and in a way it was (although I was serious about the effects to his health). I apologize and will not do it again. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks for acknowledging rather than being defensive as some would be.

[jbg]

Another awful day in Afghanistan. Two U.S. soldiers killed, many Afghan police.

Are you gloating?

Go here for my thoughts on countdowns of this kind.

[jdobbin]

Are you gloating?

Go here for my thoughts on countdowns of this kind.

I don't read any gloating in what I wrote.

As for your countdowns, need I point out your posts on Dion's language skills?

[Michael Bluth]

Are you gloating?

I wouldn't call it gloating. Merely trivializing the death of Canadian soldiers for cheap political gamesmanship.

[jdobbin]

The Sun newspaper chain poll released in the last week says that 48% of Canadians say the Tories have mishandled the mission in Afghanistan. A majority want the troops home immediately.

I think those numbers indicate that Canadians don't think deaths of troops are trivial. I think the drop in polls show they don't think they have faith in giving the Tories a majority to conduct the war as they want to.

[Michael Bluth]

The Sun newspaper chain poll released in the last week says that 48% of Canadians have mishandled the mission in Afghanistan. A majority want the troops home immediately.

I think those numbers indicate that Canadians don't think deaths of troops are trivial. I think the drop in polls show they don't think they have faith in giving the Tories a majority to conduct the war as they want to.

For somebody who claims to have me on ignore it's almost psychic that you chose to use the word trivial when I used it in the post you were responding to.

Your claims to have me on ignore when convenient to you are pathetic sir. Just as your trivializing the deaths of our soldiers is despicable.

And you accuse Stephen Harper of availing himself of the services of a psychic?

[jdobbin]

The Upper House of the Afghan government has called for a halt to military activities after the latest incident where civilians were killed in an airstrike. A U.S. was also killed in this latest offensive.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1618786,00.html

Airstrikes called in by U.S. Special Forces soldiers fighting with insurgents in southern Afghanistan killed at least 21 civilians, officials said Wednesday. One coalition soldier was also killed.

Helmand provincial Gov. Assadullah Wafa said Taliban fighters sought shelter in villagers' homes during the fighting in the Sangin district Tuesday evening, and that subsequent airstrikes killed 21 civilians, including several women and children.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has repeatedly said more must be done to prevent civilian casualties during military operations. He warned last week, after reports that 51 civilians were killed in the west, that Afghanistan "can no longer accept civilian casualties they way they occur."

The government of Afghanistan has called for talks with the Taliban.

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/st...f75324e&k=62941

KABUL, Afghanistan - Afghan legislators passed a bill Tuesday calling on the government to open dialogue with Taliban fighters and prohibiting international forces from firing their weapons and launching raids, unless they come under attack first.

The bill was passed by a voice vote in the upper house. It would also need to be approved by the lower house and signed by President Hamid Karzai before coming law.

The bill said negotiations should only be held with Afghan Taliban militants, not Pakistani Taliban fighters or al-Qaida operatives. It said the aim would be to persuade the militants to give up their fight against the government.

Meanwhile, Canadians are not the only ones thinking the mission might be "endless."

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007...e_endless_m.php

Former defence minister Joris Voorhoeve warns that the Dutch peacekeeping role in Afghanistan will be an 'endless mission' unless the government sets clear limits on the availability of its troops in the region.

Canada has begun initiating plans well into 2012.

[Charles Anthony]

The Upper House of the Afghan government has called for a halt to military activities after the latest incident where civilians were killed in an airstrike.

I guess soon we will see how "sovereign" Afghanistan really is.

[jdobbin]

The Upper House of the Afghan government has called for a halt to military activities after the latest incident where civilians were killed in an airstrike.

I guess soon we will see how "sovereign" Afghanistan really is.

It took the Upper House of the Philippines government to end decades of American presence on their soil.

[madmax]

MEOWWW! Sorry bro, do what you will. You only have yourself to blame when that heart attack comes knocking. BTW, my post was refering to almost ALL of your posts. You have an anger management problem.

Argus is quick to judge and doesn't suffer fools. I often do not agree with Argus, but I rarely have any doubt to where he stands on any issue. You will have to get used to some rough edges in the forum. This forum is pretty well monitored, and I prefer it to forums that monitor your posts before they are public.

You are new here, and I see that you have been good enough to acknowledge the wise advice of Norman Chateau.

Some others have not been so quick to learn and wind up banned.

Good luck in your future posts.

Back to Afghanistan.

I hope you did read alot of what is in this thread. While there is alot of noise, you will recogise that there is some of the best information here, from the boots that are on the ground there.

Welcome to the forum running dog.

[chezfiero]

I have seen many opinions expressed on this board, most are quite compelling.

Many people with many opinions, good to see.

Sometimes we tend to over analyze these events and read more into them than necessary.

Our Prime Minister is well handled. lets not forget his roots in the Reform Party.

Clearly he and his handlers are no more than lapdogs to the US / Bush gang.

The whole thing is a lie.

We have to get our troop numbers up to qualify in NATO.

And hey war is good for business.

What have we spent so far on this illegal undertaking?

I hear we are closing in on two billion.

How can an Afgan in Afganistan be an insurgent?

How come the P.M. never comes on national television and tells us the game plan ? any game plan. All successful organizations have weekly or monthly meetings with everyone including the company principles to discuss the state and future plans of the organization.

Why do we as citizens not demand this from our leader?

It's a simple question.

Hello Steve ... whats going on now and in the future for Canada + Canadians?

Remember "ignore your rights. and they will go away".

[noahbody]

What have we spent so far on this illegal undertaking?

Speaking of spending money. You should go out and buy an atlas. Iraq is not in Afganistan.

[chezfiero]

What have we spent so far on this illegal undertaking?

Speaking of spending money. You should go out and buy an atlas. Iraq is not in Afganistan.

Canada is in a war in Afganistan. Last time I checked anyway.